warning this can offend law abiding citizens - Which I'm not one of.

The principal being of (probably) christian heritage, should keep off the PA and just ask the crowd to join them in a prayer, nothing vocal, just 2 minutes of silent praying. Then the Muslim, Jew, christian and Hindu can pray to their god for the blessings of the game. No issues with religion of a certain people. No need to call out a specific religion. Just suddenly the problems of religion being banned becomes all for one and one for all. No longer the problem of the Christians not being allowed to pray. It's now banning everyone from praying. Who will speak up first to defend their right to pray?

the principal should not have attacked everything, he should have just said 2 minutes for a silent prayer. therefore anyone Offended by praying could just be silent for 2 minutes. Who among us isn't willing to let that pass? God or mother earth, it does not matter, Jehovah or Gaea, anyone can chose to pray and anyone can chose to be silent.

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Meditation is good. Asking an imaginary friend for help and thinking every little thing is a work of God is a bit...insane.

But yes, ask the children what they think. Let THEM make up their own conclusion. Any parent who tells their kid "you're *inset religion here*" is committing child abuse. Kids should learn about various religions such as Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and beyond. Let them pick their own institution to follow. And of course, inform them that they Don't have to pick one. They can choose to deny all institutions. If they're smart, they'll choose Atheism

[edit on 25-5-2010 by GorehoundLarry]

I would agree with you if there wasn't data showing prayer to be effective beyond chance occurance.

I think of it as "the power of positive thought".

If it can be quantified, it cannot be insane.

While i do not believe in a Christian God, I am a deist. I worship no God, but i do revere the creative force. I observe the Monad as the supreme being, of which we are a part of.

Originally posted by anubis9311
therefore anyone Offended by praying could just be silent for 2 minutes. Who among us isn't willing to let that pass?

I would pose that anyone offended by prayer should simply be asked to get over it. they can exercise their freedoms regardless of the prayer being said.

Being offended doesn't make you a victim. And it isn't unconstitutional to offend.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

I would pose that anyone offended by prayer should simply be asked to get over it. they can exercise their freedoms regardless of the prayer being said.

Being offended doesn't make you a victim. And it isn't unconstitutional to offend.

Just a quick note: I'm going to be passing out some pamphlets at either your place of employment or your child's school (or maybe both!). Nothing to worry about, though. It's just some information about socialism, the eventual fall of capitalism, why Christianity is destroying the world, and why they should convert to godless communism. Oh, I'm also going to be doing this as a government employee, on government time, and using government resources (just like the principal).

If you're offended, I suggest you "get over it", as you suggested the rest of us to do in your comment above.

thanks for the post.

another eye opener.

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

I would pose that anyone offended by prayer should simply be asked to get over it. they can exercise their freedoms regardless of the prayer being said.

Being offended doesn't make you a victim. And it isn't unconstitutional to offend.

Just a quick note: I'm going to be passing out some pamphlets at either your place of employment or your child's school (or maybe both!). Nothing to worry about, though. It's just some information about socialism, the eventual fall of capitalism, why Christianity is destroying the world, and why they should convert to godless communism. Oh, I'm also going to be doing this as a government employee, on government time, and using government resources (just like the principal).

If you're offended, I suggest you "get over it", as you suggested the rest of us to do in your comment above.

Not on government time. The principle, and any other school official, does not punch a clock.

Have you ever paid attention to a kid during prayer? they aren't listening. If you are afraid that they will "catch Christianity", worry not. I am living proof that it doesn't happen.

If you want to pass out pamphlets, just make sure they aren't ending up on the ground as litter and you and I are square. I would recommend that you just stick to talking about your message. Those who wish to listen can listen. Those who don't wish to, are free to move along.

But what this principle was saying is in line with the values of that community. If the members of that community aren't complaining, why would you?

One of the biggest turn offs of Christianity for me was that they seemed to want to control what i did, personally. It seems that atheism is no different. And both can tend to be condescending.

Edit to add: at my place of employment, i run the shop. I will have you removed, forcefully if need be, so as to not offend my paying customers. Private property is not the place to practice your freedom of speech. You wouldn't kick in my door to hand out pamphlets (although, the mormons will knock on it like crazy!!!)

[edit on 25-5-2010 by bigfatfurrytexan]

edit one more time to add: handing out pamphlets is far more confrontational than a prayer, which is completely passive. Why don't we compare apples to apples here. Stepping up the rhetoric in an attempt to prove a point don't work. If your argument is solid, you won't have to embellish. This says a lot, if i am giving an opinion, about the position represented in your post. Perhaps you can change tactics a little before hitting "Reply"?

[edit on 25-5-2010 by bigfatfurrytexan]

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Not on government time. The principle, and any other school official, does not punch a clock.

Whenever a salaried, government employee is speaking or acting in their official capacity, even outside of normal work hours, it is considered "government time". I should know, I've been a salaried employee of two government, American and Russian.

Have you ever paid attention to a kid during prayer? they aren't listening. If you are afraid that they will "catch Christianity", worry not. I am living proof that it doesn't happen.

Have you ever paid attention to a kid surrounded by many other kids who are all praying? Peer pressure is a powerful thing, and can convince people things are "right" for no reason other than that everyone else is doing it.

If you want to pass out pamphlets, just make sure they aren't ending up on the ground as litter and you and I are square.

I would recommend that you just stick to talking about your message. Those who wish to listen can listen. Those who don't wish to, are free to move along.

Well, then you should probably tell the principal to do the same. Speaking to an essentially captive audience who paid to be at the event (and yes, even the meagre amount that high school football games cost count as paid events) is disgusting.

But what this principle was saying is in line with the values of that community. If the members of that community aren't complaining, why would you?

What makes you think they haven't? What makes you think that a Muslim family living in that community hasn't been essentially intimidated into remaining silent? I know I certainly didn't speak out for socialism in the American town I moved to as a teen, despite being raised in the party and being a staunch believer. Peer pressure and the fear of the consequences of non-conformity are strong forces.

One of the biggest turn offs of Christianity for me was that they seemed to want to control what i did, personally. It seems that atheism is no different. And both can tend to be condescending.

This isn't about atheism. It's about fostering free thinking in children by not allowing "authority" figures to chastise them and tell them they are bad people for believing in different values.

God (and Jesus), I realize that you've probably got your hands full, but we're going to be playing a game of football soon and it really could use your blessing, if you see fir to do so. We really need this blessing, because without it the game might be uneventful and less exciting than if it were to have your blessing, and players might get injured, refs might make bad calls, and there may even be a few instances of unnecessary roughness if you don't bless the game. Also, if you don't bless this game, some people might drink alcohol from their thermoses and get drunk and later climb in their car and hurt someone, and some of the youth might decide to have sex under the bleachers and a girl might get pregnant. So, we really hope you'll understand the severe ramifications here and bless this game so that no bad stuff will happen and the game won't be boring. Thanks God!

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
Edit to add: at my place of employment, i run the shop. I will have you removed, forcefully if need be, so as to not offend my paying customers. Private property is not the place to practice your freedom of speech. You wouldn't kick in my door to hand out pamphlets (although, the mormons will knock on it like crazy!!!)

You can't have me removed from the sidewalk outside your shop , unfortunately.

edit one more time to add: handing out pamphlets is far more confrontational than a prayer, which is completely passive. Why don't we compare apples to apples here. Stepping up the rhetoric in an attempt to prove a point don't work. If your argument is solid, you won't have to embellish. This says a lot, if i am giving an opinion, about the position represented in your post. Perhaps you can change tactics a little before hitting "Reply"?

Praying is passive. Using a shcool's PA system to denounce all non-believers, homosexuals, users of birth control, and then calling for prayer is NOT passive.

Nice strawman, though.

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


Hmm...i just had to re-read the OP to make sure we were talking about the same thing here.

Was there anything said that was not true?

Regarding the reply....i was raised in a very conservative Christian town of about 1000 people, and 25 churches. I was dragged to all the tent revivals, and went through the motions just so i would have something to do. It was about hanging out with my friends, doing what they were doing. Did it effect my long term outlook? Not in the way you might think. I thought it was all ridiculous.

But i learned that it meant something to THEM. And i thought it was good that these people found strength and peace in their beliefs. I would never want to take that away from them.

I have been to a football game on every Friday night during the regular football season since i was in 6th grade, skipping 1 year while i live in Laramie (I am 37 now). Football games are about meeting up with friends when you are a kid. Not a single kid pays attention to the prayer. The only reason they pay attention to the national anthem is because the adults will smack them for disrespecting our flag. That is our culture.

I would suspect that the HYPOTHETICAL muslim family you refer to, if they existed, would not rely on you to save them from their situation. I would suspect that they are granted every legal opportunity for recourse. I would also suspect that your average muslim family would not be out at the football game on a friday night. I would further suspect that if they were, they would seek assimilation into the culture, or would not be at the game in the first place.

I would pose the fact that while the principle was talking, the audience was not captive. I would pose that this is an embellishment by you to bolster your argument. If your argument were worthy of merit, it would not need embellishment to stand. I once again urge you to change your tactics.

A good example:

This isn't about atheism. It's about fostering free thinking in children by not allowing "authority" figures to chastise them and tell them they are bad people for believing in different values.

Like i said, i reread the OP. There is no chastising for different values. There IS chastising for inequality. I doubt many 12 year olds understood the depth of his statement to begin with. But if they did, they would have understood that there are some strange things allowed to happen, and that inequality has once again reared its ugly head.

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa



Unfortunately, my establishment has no sidewalk. We are a hotel on an interstate. You are welcome to stand in the road to dispense socialist literature, though. Watch out for the trucks.

Did he denounce birth control? Or just point out that there was an inequality there?

First Amendment goes like this:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The RESPECTING part comes before it's opposite, the PROHIBITING of.

The definitions of it has been visited many times by the 9th Circuit Court and SCOTUS.

It's gone back and forth. The term "Under God" was argued to be a nod to religion.

This fell under the more elaborate finding that FORCING someone to pledge to a "God" was institutionalized Religion...In PUBLIC schools of course.

I agree with the finding. Yes I'm an Agnostic, but that is not why.

If parents disagree with it, they can send their kids to private Christian schools.

We fought the British and Declared Independence and one of our main grips was institutionalized preference for the "Church". I feel we can't teeter the line and come close to it again. We are the United States...Britain lost.....move on.

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa

Praying is passive. Using a shcool's PA system to denounce all non-believers, homosexuals, users of birth control, and then calling for prayer is NOT passive.

The right to speak freely is not predicated upon its passive or aggressive quality, and if it causes no harm it is a right. The same goes with the freedom to worship.

Nice straw man though.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Meditation is good. Asking an imaginary friend for help and thinking every little thing is a work of God is a bit...insane.

But yes, ask the children what they think. Let THEM make up their own conclusion. Any parent who tells their kid "you're *inset religion here*" is committing child abuse. Kids should learn about various religions such as Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and beyond. Let them pick their own institution to follow. And of course, inform them that they Don't have to pick one. They can choose to deny all institutions. If they're smart, they'll choose Atheism

[edit on 25-5-2010 by GorehoundLarry]

I would agree with you if there wasn't data showing prayer to be effective beyond chance occurance.

I think of it as "the power of positive thought".

If it can be quantified, it cannot be insane.

While i do not believe in a Christian God, I am a deist. I worship no God, but i do revere the creative force. I observe the Monad as the supreme being, of which we are a part of.

Well said sir

reply to post by Prove_It_NOW


thank you for quoting it:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

I do not see where the principle has violated the constitution. Even when i squint really, really hard.

However, if he has, it says right up there that the people who were present have every right to "petition the Government for a redress of grievances". If they do, then the discussion becomes relevant.

reply to post by Prove_It_NOW


Frankly, there is no Constitutional requirement that government provide public schooling. It is a drain on public funds, and if the issue of worship is such as sensitive one that no one can worship without temper tantrums being thrown, then I say every parent can send their kids to the private school of their choice instead of demanding every soul, whether they have children or not, pay for a "free" public education. That would settle the whole damn issue in a New York minute.

To me, it's an ugly thing to do. I don't have issue with prayer. I'm pagan and fear more Gods than most. lol I'm REAL God Fearin'.

The thing is, when someone gets up with the authority to talk in front of a group like this - a public group where govt. money is sponsoring the schools and they are supposed to be open to ALL faiths - well....this is just exclusionary.

It would make anyone NOT Christian, pro-choice, whatever...feel unwelcome and unwanted.

If Christians could just GET that....it would be great. Jesus didn't exclude people. If you really ask yourself WWJD or whatever, and if, for whatever reason JC wanted to mess around with words to say what he was really thinking and stay in touch with the law, he'd leave his politics at home (he never said much about politcs, did he?

And he certainly had public forums...)and he'd simply say "I'm so glad that we're all here together tonight and I hope we are provided with a joyful night of sportsmanship and camaraderie."

And everyone's spirits would be lifted, and everyone would feel welcome, and everyone would be glad that they could play ball and not have to suffer a political lecture.

BLEH

Originally posted by intrepid
Sorry but if I want my children to know about religion, or lack thereof, that's MY purview, not some bible thumper. ME!!! I can see why the SC has ruled as it has. "Freedom of Religion". Not "Freedom to have someone else's religion shoved down my kids throats."

it's NOT being shoved down their throats
they are free to abstain. They do NOT
have to participate, but don't try to
stop me from praying else u gonna
have a battle on ur hands u cant win.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by VneZonyDostupa

 

Hmm...i just had to re-read the OP to make sure we were talking about the same thing here.

Was there anything said that was not true?

Yes, and I will point them out when replying to your last point at the bottom of this post.

Did it effect my long term outlook? Not in the way you might think. I thought it was all ridiculous.

Anecdotal evidence is, by nature, anecdotal. What ISN'T anecdotal is the strong correlation between longterm behaviours and the habits of those people a child is around up to and during their teen years. Obviously, it doesn't affect 100% of children, but it does affect a large number of them. Why do you think Christian households and Muslim households by and large produce Christian and Muslim children (and later, adults), respectively? Because the person grew up in that atmosphere, not because of any soul-searching or analysis of their beliefs.

And i thought it was good that these people found strength and peace in their beliefs. I would never want to take that away from them.

Some people find strength and peace through heroin. Some through rape. The only difference being, those people don't appeal to a spirit in the sky.

Football games are about meeting up with friends when you are a kid. Not a single kid pays attention to the prayer. The only reason they pay attention to the national anthem is because the adults will smack them for disrespecting our flag. That is our culture.

Again, anecdotal. It's amazing to me that you know what is going through the mind of every child in every town in every state, and how those thoughts and observations inform their deicisons. Simply amazing.

I would also suspect that your average muslim family would not be out at the football game on a friday night.

Wow, really? You don't think any Muslim children play on their school's football team, and that their family doesn't support them if they do? What an awfully ethnocentric and disgusting thing to say.

I would pose the fact that while the principle was talking, the audience was not captive. I would pose that this is an embellishment by you to bolster your argument. If your argument were worthy of merit, it would not need embellishment to stand. I once again urge you to change your tactics.

No embellishment. I would personally consider the audience at a crowded game captive. Do you think I would have time, between the beginning and end of the principal's tirade, to leave? I would have to hear what is being said, stand up, shuffle my way through the bleachers, shove my way through a crowd, walk across a parking lot, and then leave. I doubt I would even make it to the crowd before the speech was finished. Thus, captive.

Like i said, i reread the OP. There is no chastising for different values. There IS chastising for inequality.

No chastising? Really? Hm, let's see. I'll enumerate them for you, in bulleted format, to make it a bit easier:

- Calling homosexuality a "sexual perversion", thus chastising any student who is homosexual.
- Calling anyone who celebrates Earth day a "religious worshipper of Mother Earth"
- Calling anyone and anything that critically analyses Christianity into question (because, god knows, we don't want to examine WHY certain beliefs are held)
- Calling any stance against the principal's personal beliefs "diabolical", thus chastising any student who doesn't fall into the fold.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Man, I wish I could give you a hundred stars.

Anyway, the title of this topic leads to a disappointment. I thought it was gonna be something cool, instead it's religious spam.

To all the christians, worship all you want with your family and friends. Teach your children your values, in your home. Freedom of religion isn't going anywhere, and even though I'm personally against organized religion I wouldn't want it to. But we ALL pay taxes, and send our kids to the same public schools so it's not fair to teach one religion over another. As somebody else said, if a muslim principal started calling on your kids to, or even suggest praying to Mecca, how would that make you feel? There is no one religion here in the U.S.

Finally, educating about the use of condoms is a public health service, like washing your hands to prevent disease. It is in no way encouraging anything, just lays out the facts for our kids. Only the most fanatical and downright evil people would rather see kids to die because they believe the kids are 'sinning'. Your own bible tells you not to judge. How is it okay to ignore God's wishes so blatantly? Be a good teacher to your children, and show them the benefits of living without negativity. Just like YOU did, they will make mistakes, but the more you forbid something, the more they will be drawn to it.