Existence of Purgatory

reply to post by DISRAELI

But my view as an stubborn Protestant is that Christ has done it already.

Thank you.I just may have learned something today in my search for truth.

Do some research on the subject of hell and you'll find that the only place it is described is in Dante's epic poem The Divine Comedy written in 1308-1321 A.D. Somehow the descriptions he provides as to the different levels of hell have been taken into mainstream Christianity as factual information. Purgatory is only vaguely referenced in the Bible as a place where forgivable sins are atoned for.

The problem here is that the main reference is found in Matthew (5:26) which is in the New Testament which directly conflicts with the mainstream assumption that salvation through Jesus is the same thing as admittance into Heaven.

The way I see the scripture is this. It breaks down sins into two categories: those that can be forgiven through atonement (in purgatory) and those which cannot be forgiven.

Personally though, I simply think the Church realized that 99.9% of people could not live 100% sin free. Simply thinking about committing a sin is technically a sin in the eyes of the most devout. A chance at redemption is the only thing that holds it all together. Otherwise once someone knows they committed a sin, and is therefore condemned to hell for all eternity, they have no reason to continue believing, following, or funding that particular religious movement and will therefore find a more accommodating belief system.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Earth as a purgatory makes more sense.
Adam and Eve are expelled into it from Eden.

You can "disintegrate" much of Christianity's 1700 year old, "message" with one thought experiment...

"If you were God, and you saw that today, mankind had decided to "farm" e.g. 10,000 battery chickens-lab dogs, for the year 2010, who would you choose to be these animals?

Would you choose "brand new" soles, that had therefore never done anything wrong. Or would you choose 10,000 old soles that had already lived a costly-immoral life?"

For me, the reincarnation option makes so much more sense, it's because it's so much more just than choosing new-perfectly innocent soles.

First Warning: Reincarnation will not mean you can e.g. be cruel to an animal with a clear conscience. It merely means that if you are, you will be far, more likely to be that animal, in a similar situation, some time, in the future (after you've died as human).

It also means being good Custodians of this Earth (it's creatures) pays twice. Firstly by avoiding a suffering reincarnation, secondly by helping you leave this Earth (and therefore remaining in Heaven -or whatever might be afterwards, in say e.g. other Dimensions).

More...
I don't believe in a actual "War" between Good and Evil? Compared with "competition" war is such an immature, human thing (because it's always about destruction). Therefore its hardly the stuff of two infinitely, intelligent, Supernatural beings!!!

I believe in a "competition" for mankind's soles. The invisible forces that tempt us away from Evil are the angels, and the other forces tempting us to be "bad" actually "help" God by proving that we were not worthy of the Heaven-afterlife (he otherwise had in mind for us).

It helps God, because by knowing (the certain people) who've chosen to be "evil" he also knows that they may (justifiably) fur fill the worst roles of suffering (that their successors are no doubt causing).
I suppose eventually all (or maybe just most) damned human soles, will be given another chance at being human? Hence Earth would (actually) be a fantastic, Purgatory system.

I think many "true" Demons (i.e. those that truly serve the devil) (rather than their own madness'es) exist not to serve mankind, but the other (more innocent) creatures of this Earth. These creatures (are understandably) "willing" for us & others, to live their lives of suffering, instead. Not just to avoid suffering; but also have their own chance, of being a member of the human race!

Second Warning: One reason why we might be living in the "end times" is because the Earth is more "Satanic" than it has (perhaps) ever been.
Its because the population of the human species, is causing far more suffering (across all other species) than there are actually members of the human species.

This might be "ok", when we just hunted wild creatures; or farmed them having given them a life similar-better to the wild state. And it would be ok because: Death is only a tiny part of any animals (total) life. But modern farming methods, the extinction of 30 percent of the world's species in the last 35 years www.naturalnews.com... has almost certainly thrown the whole Earth, Purgatory System "out of balance".
This means today, the Earth today has become (more) a "factory" for hell (i.e. staying on the Earth in horrible ways) than it is for Heaven (leaving it on either good terms, or leaving it on good terms permanently).

From what I understand (according to most interpretations of the bible) the Devil (primarily) rebelled against God, when he refused God's order, "to bow down to mankind". The Devil said it was because we were "inferior". He said it was because we were not worthy of heaven.

We know it resulted, in God sending him to Earth. But God also made him "king of the Earth" (with mankind merely the Custodians of its creation).

So Think to Yourself...
If the Devil had no right to disagree with God, then why does God send this "rebellious angel" to Earth? And if he sends him to Earth at all, why does he make him a "king", rather than say e.g. a species of slug?

One thing we know: If God is the infinitely more powerful one, he clearly doesn't "hate" the devil. Otherwise the Devil may be "trapped" in e.g. some certain species of slug. Maybe not even a slug, just a microbe? In fact if God, truly hated the Devil, perhaps the Devil wouldn't even exist, at all? So maybe God just said, something like this instead...

God: "Devil, you say these humans aren't worthy of heaven, you say your type, is superior to them. So go to Earth, and prove it!!!
If Man is bad, and you show it, then your reward shall be to gain control of their soles. No doubt (as king of the Earth), you will find many uses in the reincarnation of these soles! And by "protecting" other species, from bad reincarnations, you will gain credibility, with all spirits of a less than human, species. You will (thereby doubly) re-confirm your position, as King of Earth."

Devil: "Gee, I don't know, about that. The Earth is a pretty small place, and I'm having a much better time, up here in heaven. Let me stay here, and build, other Dimensions with you. Can't we agree, to disagree?"

God: But you still disagree?
Devil: "Yes"
God: "Then go to Earth, do as I say! Learn what you must learn. You will be King, and one day before (I send my second son) your power will extend over, almost everything. When I've send my second son (in merely a few thousand years timed) then you may take a "rest"

Maybe that's why the Devil is pissed? Not against God, but the very people he can corrupt into serving him. Because it these sub-godly creatures-spirits, that are the real cause-and purpose of the Devil being on Earth at all (and less in tune with heaven).

I.e. The "War" is not between God and the Devil, but mankind and the Devil. And yet its still more a competition, because the only destruction is when we do things that are wrong, and even when we do, we just end up being slaves to a "constructive cause" i.e. saving someone-something else from suffering to what we cause.

I Also Believe: "Sin" is a type of debt; and if you ever look into what many Satanists have to say (I'm not one btw!) you'll find many have reported that its responsible for its own "Demonic Currency System". I think human reincarnation, could easily be; how this currency is "cashed in".

reply to post by Liberal1984


If I'm using the Bible as basis, a person doesn't exist until the breath of life enters the dust of the earth (body), both of those together equal a person.

When the breath returns to G-d, the dust returns to the Earth and the person ceases or "sleeps".

Even if the breath of life recycles, its not reincarnation but more akin to what Buddhists believe in. what is sometimes in the English called "Rebirth." The Dalai Lama showed a very good example of how this works by using a flame from one candle to light another candle. The flames are not the same flames, but they share the fire that gave them existence.

I don't believe in any cosmic war between good and evil. The only real conflict the Bible mentions is between man and Satan. Its more of trial than anything with constant accusations made in a heavenly sanhedrin against humanity.

I don't see any support for the various types of unclean spirits, becoming human. There are some verses that allude to angels becoming mortal though, but angels and unclean spirits are very different types of beings.

The story of Satan not bowing down to humanity actually comes from the Quaran and not the Bible. Though I am inclined based on the book of Job to believe Satan sees humans as unclean beasts like pigs and dogs.

So Think to Yourself...
If the Devil had no right to disagree with God, then why does God send this "rebellious angel" to Earth? And if he sends him to Earth at all, why does he make him a "king", rather than say e.g. a species of slug?

Well I don't see Satan as a rebellious angel yet. Jesus says in the Gospel, especially in John, that Satan will fall one day in the end times. The book of Revelations plays out the whole scenario, with him being thrown to the earth and then imprisonment in the abyss.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
Jesus says in the Gospel, especially in John, that Satan will fall one day in the end times. The book of Revelations plays out the whole scenario, with him being thrown to earth

I'm in the middle of putting together a long thread on this, which I'm putting out at the weekend--
But, to cut a long story short, my theory about the Fall in Revelation ch12 is that it's the direct effect of the Atonement. Note the context- the birth of Christ.

Hi,

Here are some thoughts on a Catholic perspective on Purgatory. They come from ScriptureCatholic.com where they have a LOT of other support material.

I hope it helps and I applaud your willingness to look at both sides of a discussion.

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

reply to post by EricD


I have to ask but what of the many verses that reference the sleep and the resurrection/awakening from the sleep on judgement day?

What of the fact that Revelations 21 doesn't even apply to Heaven, but the New Jerusalem that descended from the Heavens?

In regards to Luke, what of the correlation between Paradise and Eden?

You can not find purgatory in the bible, it is an invention of Apostate Christianity. My ancestors were heavily involved in the catholic clergy, so I know it's a game to sucker more people out of there money, and scare them.

Purgatory does not exist.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
You can not find purgatory in the bible, it is an invention of Apostate Christianity. My ancestors were heavily involved in the catholic clergy, so I know it's a game to sucker more people out of there money, and scare them.

Purgatory does not exist.

Really? You have insider knowledge from your ancestors? Can you pass that along? Maybe offer some evidence?

Sounds more than a little ridiculous.

Eric

reply to post by EricD


I have a family tree that goes back 400 years on one side of my family.

Each generation relates it to the next, until one finally breaks free and exposes the truth, that would be my courageous grandmother who was heavily persecuted by the priests, once she broke away from the church.
She had family that were both priests and nuns too.

You don't have to believe me, I don't really care.

I know what I know, from my family. Purgatory was used in a very evil way on ignorant but sincere people. And you wonder why people hate religion.

Purgatory is false and a lie!
Believing in it, shows very little biblical knowledge.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by EricD

 

I have a family tree that goes back 400 years on one side of my family.

Each generation relates it to the next, until one finally breaks free and exposes the truth, that would be my courageous grandmother who was heavily persecuted by the priests, once she broke away from the church.
She had family that were both priests and nuns too.

You don't have to believe me, I don't really care.

I know what I know, from my family. Purgatory was used in a very evil way on ignorant but sincere people. And you wonder why people hate religion.

Purgatory is false and a lie!
Believing in it, shows very little biblical knowledge.

So, your proof is that your family has some secret insider knowledge of a Catholic conspiracy that goes back generations?

I think it's more plausible to believe that you are actually a master jedi.

Why don't you check out the site that I posted (scriptureCatholic.com) and offer some reason why you believe that, whether you agree with it or not, the existence of Purgatory is reasonable (but possibly flawed) exegesis?

Eric

If you like Bible quotes, then oliveoil and ericD have more than enough. However, I think it's quite obvious that each position can be rationalized using or ignoring the same scripture verses. Whether you're protestant, catholic, or some new-age reincarnating synthesis between, it's no use trying to figure it out. This is one of the big reasons why the Catholics have a pope. Seriously.

An interesting idea might be to take a step away from ancient scriptures, and attempt to apply reason without referring to any verse, see where you go, and then perhaps come back to the scriptures to see if anything still makes sense. Not a new idea, if I recall correctly, even Aquinas tried hard to get outside the box, and reached all the way back to Aristotle, in a time when only Plato would do for the medeval Church. This eventually led to the Enlightenment, so perhaps today we should take the hint. An example of a modern attempt along these lines is Liberation Theology. They are by no means atheists, but they work "backwards", asserting that things like "social injustice", or "poverty" are so obvious, that they use it as the starting point in their search for truth, and then look to scripture to form better, or at least more "real" conclusions. Of course, some of those conclusions were famously condemned by the mainstream, when one of their spokespersons answered that, "Yes, Jesus would carry a machine-gun!"

No, I didn't mention all this to get off-topic, but rather to illustrate that there are other ways to get at the "truth", or perhaps a better way of putting it, there are better ways to achieve a high confidence level about a thing, than using / misusing ancient scriptures. This is not a slam to believers at all, again, I feel that believers should allow themselves more latitude (like St. Thomas Aquinas). No, you may not come up with the new Summa, but you may narrow your search considerably.

Regarding Purgatory specifically, it is clearly supported by scripture, which is why the traditional Christian (Catholic) church went with it, notwithstanding BlueJay's family traditions. Does that mean the Protestant view is wrong? Hardly. But they're coming from a different place. By emphasizing the "Jesus does it all" verses (He's God, why not?), and plugging that into their theological notion of being "saved", a purgatory fails to make sense anymore. But, if they start with the historic church theology, then Purgatory MUST be there, because frankly, Jesus "will not" do it all, even though he can (from their perspective).

Getting outside the box (just a little), do you "already" believe in "purgatory", even if you were raised protestant, or even raised as "nothing"? Think about the average non-theology minded person. They believe what their TV told them to believe, that when they die, they all go to "Heaven". But if their daughter gets raped, then the rapist will "Fry in Hell!", or perhaps they will just have to believe that justice will be done someday. Already, you've got "purgatory" at a bare minimum (for other people), and you didn't even need a Bible!

Last thought: Do you even need a Hell, if you've already got Purgatory? After all, can you honestly think of anything that a finite creature could do, that would ever merit "eternal" punishment"? While theologians can, and do come up with theoretical answers to this question, it does finally turn on an essential question, one that you may have ALREADY decided (even if you are still wondering about things like purgatory). The question is: Are people basically "redeemable", in the sense that if they are "broke", that they can be "fixed" (even if it took a Divine Physician!)? If so, then Hell ultimately fails, notwithstanding the various "freewill" arguments, because it's a place where you don't get fixed anymore. If not, then Purgatory should do the trick just fine by itself.

No, I'm not a religionist, but I try to call 'em like I see 'em.

JR MacBeth

reply to post by EricD


Church Dogma

Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.

How can we help the souls being purified in purgatory?

Because of the communion of saints, the faithful who are still pilgrims on earth are able to help the souls in purgatory by offering prayers in suffrage for them, especially the Eucharistic sacrifice. They also help them by almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance.

And if you actually believe that bold part, I feel sorry for you. But the church is going to love you.


Since you won't believe me.

the conception of purgatory as a geographically situated place is largely the creation of medieval Christian piety and imagination.

Encyclopaedia Britannica

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


It would help if you could provide a link to where you are quoting from, so that I know if it is from the Catechism or the writing of a Catholic author or from the Vatican's website.

Thanks.

On your closing point, I'm afraid that I couldn't care less what he Encyclopedia Brittanica has to say on the matter. They are not noted for their theologians. I'm sure you understand. It would be the same if I pointed out somewhere in the encyclopedia where it says that Luther excised Macabees from his version of the Bible so that it would fit his created theology.

Eric

reply to post by EricD


Purgatory

Definition:

“According to the teaching of the [Roman Catholic] Church, the state, place, or condition in the next world . . . where the souls of those who die in the state of grace, but not yet free from all imperfection, make expiation for unforgiven venial sins or for the temporal punishment due to venial and mortal sins that have already been forgiven and, by so doing, are purified before they enter heaven.”

New Catholic Encyclopedia

A further explanation

“Many think that the total suffering of purgatory is identified with the awareness of the temporary postponement of the beatific vision, although the more common view holds that, in addition to this, there is some positive punishment . . . In the Latin Church it has been generally maintained that this pain is imposed through real fire. This is not, however, essential to belief in purgatory. It is not even certain. . . . Even if one chooses, with the theologians of the East, to reject the idea of suffering induced by fire, one should be careful not to exclude all positive suffering from purgatory. There are still real affliction, sorrow, chagrin, shame of conscience, and other spiritual sorrows capable of inflicting true pain on the soul. . . . One should remember, at any rate, that in the midst of their sufferings these souls also experience great joy over the certainty of salvation.”

New Catholic Encyclopedia

“The church has relied on tradition to support a middle ground between heaven and hell.”

U.S. Catholic

“What goes on in purgatory is anyone’s guess.”

U.S. Catholic


After reviewing what Catholic writers have said regarding such texts as 2 Maccabees 12:39-45, Matthew 12:32, and 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, the New Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges:

“In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”

As I originally posted in thread

You can not find purgatory in the bible, it is an invention

To which I now add, an invention of self admitted tradition.


So Eric if you want to argue against "stated" church dogma, go for it.
My favorite is when people march in lock step with church dogma, but when it is shown to them in black in white they disagree with it. Makes me wonder why they stick with a religion they don't' actually agree with.

Anyways I have more than proven the point.







[edit on 28-5-2010 by Blue_Jay33]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


So, here's what happened.

I went to the Catechism, which is the authoritative teaching of the Church and I pulled quotes that discusses where the doctrine came from in Sacred Scripture. I then did the same from the Old Catholic Encyclopedia and the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia.

I was going to post them here until I realized that it's a waste of time. You have determined that regardless of what you are told or shown, the Catholic Church has created Purgatory from whole cloth.

It's disturbing that you went to check out what was stated in the Catholic Encyclopedia and completely ignored what was stated about Scriptural support for the doctrine that was directly quoted from the Council of Trent in the areas that cover purgatory.

Again, there are quotes from the decrees from the Council of Trent that specifically reference the Scriptural background of purgatory.

If you would like, I'll supply the quotes but somehow I don't think that it will matter to you in the least.

I can easily understand anyone thinking that the Church is wrong about Purgatory. I can understand how people can believe that it is a result of eisegesis. What I find hard to believe is that anyone objectively looking at the facts would think that the Church just made it all up. I realize that it would be convenient for anti-Catholics to believe so, but it doesn't stand up to any intellectual rigor.

Eric

[edit on 27-5-2010 by EricD]

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

But my view as an stubborn Protestant is that Christ has done it already.

Thank you.I just may have learned something today in my search for truth.

Read the sumerian tablets. You will gain more truth from them than the bible. The bible is nothing more than a bad translation of the sumerian tablets.

sumerian tablets

Purgatory I believe is Outer SPace and Earth is a form of hell.