It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Existence of Purgatory

page: 1
0
<<   2 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 25 2010 @ 09:09 AM
link   
I was just wondering if anyone could shed some light as to the existence of Purgatory.I have combed though the scriptures and could only find a few remote texts that could possibly be the basis of the theory behind it.

Macc 12:46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The stumbling block for me is that in revelation 21:27 it states that Gods presence is so pure and holy that nothing unclean shall enter it (Heaven)

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

If we are all sinners and "unclean" how can we enter into Heaven?

Didn't Jesus redeem us from our sin?




posted on May, 25 2010 @ 09:37 AM
link   
I think you are exactly right with your last point.

If someone truly believes the message of Christ, then all we have to do is love each other. Any attempt to judge someone or tell them they are going to hell negates the whole message.

Looking in Young's Literal Translation (translation of the original Hebrew and Greek directly into English) the word "hell" doesn't even appear in the entire Bible.

In my opinion Hell and Purgatory are constructs made up by the "church" to keep people in fear and make them believe they need some human institution to save them from "hell".

We are all immortal and certainly after we die we will have to face our misdeeds, but we are all GUARANTEED the opportunity for eternal life as long as we don't knowingly and intentionally reject it.

I think the 'purgatory' concept may be similar to some of the ancient mystery schools concepts (also Kabballah and Rosicrucian Fellowship) that after death we have a 'review' period to look at our actions from the point of view of others.

For example if we mistreat someone we might see how it felt from their perspective, looking back on ourselves.

In the end, though, all we have is speculation and faith.

As a Christian, though, I believe the entire message of God can be summed up in Jesus teaching:

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. " - John 13:34

I will look up some of your passages in Young's translation and post the results.

biblegateway.com is a great place to compare passages from different translations.



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 09:40 AM
link   
Well Im not much into religion, but from what Ive herad, I think purgatory is the "in-between" part of heaven/hell. Basically its just like a "limbo" where you just sit and dont really do anything. In purgatory, nothing is good or bad, basically just the middle.

Again, I dont know much about religion, so I may be thinking of something else, correct me if Im wrong.



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 09:45 AM
link   
Young's:

1 Peter 1:17 - "and if on the Father ye do call, who without acceptance of persons is judging according to the work of each, in fear the time of your sojourn pass ye,"

And another quote (from the Urantia Book, said to be from the recollections of Nathaniel and others):

""He who believes this gospel, believes not merely in me but in Him who sent me. I am the light of the world, and whosoever will believe my teaching shall no longer abide in darkness.""


I think it's saying that Jesus wants us to "believe Him", in other words His teachings, and not necessarily worship Him.



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 09:47 AM
link   

Originally posted by oliveoil

Didn't Jesus redeem us from our sin?

I agree with Emsed1 that this is the key point.

Surely the act of redemption, in itself, has already achieved exactly what Purgatory is supposed to achieve?

As Paul says, "You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians ch6 v11). We have ceased to be sinners in the eyes of God. Job done, from the Christian standpoint.



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 09:48 AM
link   
Revelation 21 speaks of the New Jerusalem that descends from the Heavens. So its not really the Heavens.

Revelation 21:10

10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from G-d,


The pearly gates and all is the Holy City on the "new earth", not Heaven.

Note Revelation 21:3

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of G-d is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and G-d himself shall be with them, and be their G-d.


From my understanding there isn't any purgatory or limbo. Instead we all "sleep" until Judgement Day.

Daniel 12:2

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


John 5:28–30

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.




[edit on 25/5/10 by MikeboydUS]



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 09:54 AM
link   
I know its not in the (mainstream) Holy writings, but just look at this planet Earth. It's 110% perfect for Purgatory as it has conditions that stretch from those (close to) both heaven, and (certainly) hell.
Also the Early Christians believed in Reincarnation, and did so until the bible was Created between AD 393 to 419. www.aboutcatholics.com...

Just Google the Lost Gospels www.google.co.uk...=en&rlz=1W1GGLL_en-GB&q=the+lost+gospels&aq=0&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=the+lost+go&gs_rfai=&fp=615f82516a75afc5

The Bible was created by both destroying & criminalizing many, many, other religious texts that a conveying of certain powerful (I guess evil) men, did not deem to be in their interests.

This is almost certainly why there is a gap in Jesus's life between 12 and 31, and perhaps also why when you read the bible it sometimes feels like your reading a first class essay, but one who's pages-chapters was dropped out a ten story window, and then collected in disorderly fashion, before being assembled and published as what we know today.
I think the chaos probably constitutes a bible code all of its own, as originally, if you had a master-copy it would show both the real order of various bible pages-chapters, and spaces for where some others had been kept secret.

You have to remember that it was only a few hundred years ago, when both Catholic-Protestant churches stopped burning people to death, for daring to write the Bible in English. It would make sense to add an additional level of secrecy by not only publishing the powerful book in Latin, but also messing with the page order.



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 09:59 AM
link   
reply to post by Liberal1984
 


Earth as a purgatory makes more sense.

Adam and Eve are expelled into it from Eden.
Angels fall to it.
Its ruled over by a cosmocracy of tyrannical wardens.

I have to comment on the reincarnation bit, some sects considered heretical by the Church fathers believed in reincarnation.

The Gospel itself actually speaks of sleep and an awakening at judgement day.

Mark 12:15

For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.


John 6:40.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 6:44.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


For some reason people like to take the verses out of context and leave out the whole raising on judgement day.

John 6:54.

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the L-rd himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of G-d: and the dead in Christ shall rise first




[edit on 25/5/10 by MikeboydUS]



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 10:04 AM
link   
reply to post by emsed1
 


Emsed,

First let me say I love bible gateway!! Star for that. However, I have a problem with a couple of things you said.

The first is saying we are immortal. Can you please clarify. the bible is clear in stating we shall experience only one physical death. if you mean we will have life eternal, we will if we put our faith in Christ Jesus.

The second was your quote of Jesus wants us to believe in Him, His teachings and not worship Him.

Yes he does want us to put our faith in Him, you are right about that. However, He also calls us to worship Him or praise Him always. This does not mean we walk around all day long chanting praise to God out loud, this means we should always have our eyes and hearts turned to Him. Silently, in everything we do.

Bottom line is once you die it will be too late. When Christ returns He will judge us according to our faith. Then there will be a second judgment for the believers in Him. This will determine our just rewards.

There should be no speculation only faith. Do not doubt what the word of God says. Search the scriptures for truth, question the things you are not sure of, and when that happens, ask God to reveal Himself to you in a very real way. He will. This is the way we gain Godly wisdom.

Not judging you at all, just wanted to point out some misunderstanding.

Sincerely,
Pax



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 11:15 AM
link   
reply to post by oliveoil
 


There is as much evidence for the existence of Purgatory as there is evidence for the existence of God. Take that as you will.



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 11:38 AM
link   
I guess what I am trying to say is that Why if Jesus came to earth to save us from our sins, the Catholic believes that the effects of sin that linger on after death can be purged so that one can enter heaven.Jesus either saves us from our sins or he does not.What would be the point of a savior.

[edit on 25-5-2010 by oliveoil]



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 11:40 AM
link   
Purgatory?

Physical and moral suffering; the period of expiation. It is almost always upon the earth that you are made by God to undergo your purgatory, and to expiate your wrong-doing.

What men call purgatory is also a figure of speech, that should be understood as signifying, not any determinate place, but the state of imperfect spirits who have to expiate their faults until they have attained the complete purification that will raise them to the state of perfect blessedness. As this purification is effected by means of various incarnations, purgatory consists in the trials of corporeal life.



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 11:43 AM
link   

Originally posted by oliveoil
I guess what I am trying to say is that Why if Jesus came to earth to save us from our sins, the Catholic believes that the effects of sin that linger on after death can be purged so that one can enter heaven.Jesus either saves us from our sins or he does not.What would be the point of a savior.

[edit on 25-5-2010 by oliveoil]

Jesus is the type of the moral perfection to which man may attain upon this earth. God offers Him to our thought as our most perfect model and the doctrine taught by Him is the purest expression of the divine law, because He was animated by the divine spirit, and was the purest being who has ever appeared upon the earth.
If some of those who have professed to instruct man in the law of God have sometimes led him astray by the inculcation of error, it is because they have allowed themselves to be swayed by sentiments of too earthly a nature, and because they have confounded the laws which regulate the conditions of the life of the soul which regulate the life of the body. Many pretended revealers have announced as divine laws what were only human laws, devised by them for serving their own passions and obtaining dominion over their fellow-men.



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 11:43 AM
link   

Originally posted by oliveoil
Jesus either saves us from our sins or he does not.What would be the point of God sending him?

I agree. I have already quoted one Paul passage, now let me quote another one;
"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me". Galatians ch2 v30
The old self which the Catholic church wants to "purge" has been "purged" already. It died on the cross with Christ. It is dead.



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 11:47 AM
link   

Originally posted by Shadow Herder
Purgatory?

Physical and moral suffering; the period of expiation. It is almost always upon the earth that you are made by God to undergo your purgatory, and to expiate your wrong-doing.

What men call purgatory is also a figure of speech, that should be understood as signifying, not any determinate place, but the state of imperfect spirits who have to expiate their faults until they have attained the complete purification that will raise them to the state of perfect blessedness. As this purification is effected by means of various incarnations, purgatory consists in the trials of corporeal life.


So another words your saying that purgatory exists for the souls that are less than perfect.Blemished.So your saying that Jesus saves us however we must be purified before we enter heaven?



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 11:51 AM
link   

Originally posted by oliveoil

Originally posted by Shadow Herder
Purgatory?

Physical and moral suffering; the period of expiation. It is almost always upon the earth that you are made by God to undergo your purgatory, and to expiate your wrong-doing.

What men call purgatoryIt is almost always upon the earth..... is also a figure of speech, that should be understood as signifying, not any determinate place, but the state of imperfect spirits who have to expiate their faults until they have attained the complete purification that will raise them to the state of perfect blessedness. As this purification is effected by means of various incarnations, purgatory consists in the trials of corporeal life.


So another words your saying that purgatory exists for the souls that are less than perfect.Blemished.So your saying that Jesus saves us however we must be purified before we enter heaven?


Not at all. It says that "purgatory, it is almost always upon the earth is also a figure of speech, that should be understood as signifying, not any determinate place, but the state of imperfect spirits who have to expiate their faults until they have attained the complete purification that will raise them to the state of perfect blessedness. As this purification is effected by means of various incarnations, purgatory consists in the trials of corporeal life"

It is not a place you goto in the ground (hell) like you see in old bugs bunny reruns.



[edit on 25-5-2010 by Shadow Herder]



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 11:56 AM
link   

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by oliveoil
Jesus either saves us from our sins or he does not.What would be the point of God sending him?

I agree. I have already quoted one Paul passage, now let me quote another one;
"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me". Galatians ch2 v30
The old self which the Catholic church wants to "purge" has been "purged" already. It died on the cross with Christ. It is dead.


Hi Disraeli,

We are on the same lines However, there must be sound reasoning why the Catholic Church sees the Doctrine of Purgatory as truth. And as to what that doctrine says I am a little confused.



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 11:57 AM
link   
reply to post by oliveoil
 


Your idea of heaven may also be skewed.

The localization of rewards and punishments in fixed places exists only in man's imagination; it proceeds from his' tendency to materialize and to circumscribe the things of which he cannot comprehend the essential infinitude.



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 12:00 PM
link   
reply to post by Shadow Herder
 

Thanks for your insight.

Your idea of heaven may also be skewed.


I haven't examined the Catholic POV yet. However, every Catholic doctrine I have come across and studied I have found truth. Weird huh?



posted on May, 25 2010 @ 12:06 PM
link   
reply to post by oliveoil
 

Hi there.
I must admit that I'm not a Catholic myself, as you'll have gathered from other posts, so I'm more open to the proposition that "Catholic tradition has added something which is not in scripture". The Protestant criticism of Purgatory is partly that it has a very slim scriptural base (mainly your Maccabees quote) and partly that it seems to add to the work of Christ.

I gather from a non-Catholic textbook in my hands that it is meant for "those who are still burdened with the guilt of venial sins and have not borne the temporal punishment due to their sins".

But my view as a stubborn Protestant is that Christ has done it already.





[edit on 25-5-2010 by DISRAELI]




top topics



 
0
<<   2 >>

log in

join