The Dust of the Earth

Originally posted by octotom

And the serpent did leave the Garden. He's walking to and fro on the Earth as we speak!

"upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life."

If Satan was cursed to spend the rest of his existence as a serpent, then how does he reappear later " walking to and fro"?

The serpent family was cursed to be a reminder of what happened in the garden of eden. Satan needed a mouthpiece to talk through because of the rules set by God. Humans may not remember what exactly happended there but the angels sure do.

The creature that Satan used to talk to Eve was a four limbed lizard. It is highly possible this creature had wings like a Pterodactyl. Its limbs were removed and it was forced to live on its belly and appear to lick the dust as it crawled.

Small portions of the limbs can still be seen on the Python. Hasn't anyone ever seen the bird claws on male Pythons? That's all that left of the lower limbs. The upper portion cannot be detected.

The serpent, Leviathan, beast from the sea, Lucifer, Satan and that great red dragon all are one and the same. They are all different representations of the same angelic creature.

1.Leviathan is described as "that crooked serpent", which is also used to describe Satan in Revelation 12:9.
2."The dragon" and "the old serpent" in the Book of Revelation 12:9, 20:2 have been identified with Satan. The Book of Revelation also refers to "the deceiver," from which is derived the common epithet "the great deceiver."
3.Lucifer is sometimes used in Christian theology to refer to Satan, as a result of identifying the fallen "son of the dawn" of Isaiah 14:12 with the "accuser" of other passages in the Old Testament.

Hope this helps.

Originally posted by Loken68
The serpent, Leviathan, beast from the sea, Lucifer, Satan and that great red dragon all are one and the same. They are all different representations of the same angelic creature.

1.Leviathan is described as "that crooked serpent", which is also used to describe Satan in Revelation 12:9.
2."The dragon" and "the old serpent" in the Book of Revelation 12:9, 20:2 have been identified with Satan. The Book of Revelation also refers to "the deceiver," from which is derived the common epithet "the great deceiver."
3.Lucifer is sometimes used in Christian theology to refer to Satan, as a result of identifying the fallen "son of the dawn" of Isaiah 14:12 with the "accuser" of other passages in the Old Testament.

Hope this helps.

Thank you for the response.

There was a time I had an idea kind of like that, but too many issues were raised.

So what about the other Tannim created by G-d on the fifth day?

Or the fact that Genesis calls the Serpent in Eden a creature?

What about the Bronze serpent held by Moses?

What about the Seraphim and the other fiery serpents?

How can the Beast of the Sea be the same as the Red Dragon if the Dragon is the one who gives authority to the Beast?

What about the Red Dragon's heads, horns, and crowns?

What about verses about "Helel" the shining son of dawn, king of Babylon, aka Lucifer being killed and not buried and his sons being killed? Or the verse calling him a man?

I agree that the Leviathan is referenced by the symbolism of the Red Dragon in the book of Revelations, but the Red Dragon is clearly a symbol, it even calls it a sēmeion or sign in Revelations 12:3. So it definitely recalls the imagery of the Leviathan.

Yet, Leviathan is mentioned as a creature and the Tannim are mentioned as creatures, created on earth in the seas. Job 41:34 infers that Leviathan is king of the dragons. Numerous references are made to these dragons throughout the Tanakh (your Old Testament).

In the Greek, Revelations 12:9 it says: καὶ ἐβλήθη ὁ δράκων ὁ μέγας ὁ ὄφις ὁ ἀρχαῖος ὁ καλούμενος Διάβολος καὶ ὁ Σατανᾶς ὁ πλανῶν τὴν οἰκουμένην ὅλην ἐβλήθη εἰς τὴν γῆν καὶ οἱ ἄγγελοι αὐτοῦ μετ’
αὐτοῦ ἐβλήθησαν

"and thrown, the drakon the great the ophis the ancient, called diabolos (slanderer) and that satanas (enemy) that planon (roams, wanders, leads to roam, to wander) the whole world, thrown to the earth and the messengers autou (they/themselves) meta (amidst/among/middle) autou (they/themselves) thrown alike"

It doesn't really flat out say that the symbol is "The Satan" of Job but it does say it is the enemy. In Job, "The Satan" wanders/roams/leads with the Bnai Elohim, "Sons of G-d". In the orginal text of Deuteronomy it is said that the nations of men are dividied among the "Sons of G-d". The number of the nations of men are 70 according to the Bible. In Canaanite myth El has 70 sons. Note also that the Great Sanhedrin of ancient Israel had 70 members, lead by a prince or "Nasi". In Daniel we see Michael and Gabriel struggle against the princes and chiefs of the nations. Paul speaks of the struggle against powers and principalities. The Prince of these Powers is identified in Ephesians 2:2 as Satan, who is also called the Cosmic Archon in John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11. In 2 Corinthians 4:4 he is called the Theos, "god" of the Aionos "Aeon".

So I think we can agree that Satan is involved, but calling the Dragon an individual would be like calling the Hitler the Third Reich. Both of us know that Hitler was "heart and soul" of the Third Reich but he himself alone was not the Reich. Likewise Satan is the heart and soul of the Red Dragon, but the Dragon itself is a cosmocracy.

Now this is real interesting, I made a mistake with the Beast of the Sea.

Revelations 12:3 says the "Red" Dragon has Seven Heads, Ten Horns and Seven Crowns.

Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.

Seven Heads
Ten Horns
Seven Crowns

Now look at the Beast from the Sea in Revelations 13,

And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

Seven Heads
Ten Horns
Ten Crowns

There is a mystery here waiting to be solved.

One last thing on the nature of the Red Dragon is its color. The Greek word is Pyrros, which actually means the Color of Fire. Erythos is the normal word for red in ancient Greek. This is why people have to go back to the Greek and Hebrew.

The actual term should the the Fiery Dragon, not red. This definitely distances it from the Leviathan, a Water Dragon, and the Tannim.

It does something else though, remember the Seraphim? The same Seraphim called Dragons in the Book fo Enoch. Whose name literally means the burning ones. I don't think this is a coincidence.

Your thoughts?

reply to post by MikeboydUS


There is an entire society of entities humans cannot see, the angels and djinni. They are the elder brothers of mankind, we are fathered by the same Creator. Adam was frightened by their bright countenances, God in his mercy, removed Adam's ability to see them. A curious note, Lilith, Adam's first helpmeet, left him for the serpent and became the mother of all demons, did not participate in the original sin. Adam and Eve died numerous times, suicide, birth defects, drowning and starvation to name a few. God did not design them to die, they had to learn to be dead. Even then it was not death as we know it. These tales and more can be found in the pseudagraphia of the Bible.

Originally posted by debris765nju
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

There is an entire society of entities humans cannot see, the angels and djinni. They are the elder brothers of mankind, we are fathered by the same Creator. Adam was frightened by their bright countenances, God in his mercy, removed Adam's ability to see them. A curious note, Lilith, Adam's first helpmeet, left him for the serpent and became the mother of all demons, did not participate in the original sin. Adam and Eve died numerous times, suicide, birth defects, drowning and starvation to name a few. God did not design them to die, they had to learn to be dead. Even then it was not death as we know it. These tales and more can be found in the pseudagraphia of the Bible.

I agree about the other entities. The Bible references what the Arabs called the Djinn, by the names of the Seirim and Shedim. Isaiah 34 references them and even Lilith in 34:14. Some believe they dwell in an Otherworld known as the Yenne Velt.

I'm not sure about the various texts though, especially in regards to who or what Lilith is. She is referenced all the way back to Sumeria. She is somewhat of an archetypal figure, which leads me to think she wasn't ever human. Some traditions in fact have her as the Serpent of Eden.

I'm not so sure about her being the Serpent of Eden, but it would explain her lust for blood and flesh, if the curse of eating dust means eating the flesh and blood of humanity. Her offspring are said to have the same appetite for blood and flesh.

Compare to Lamia of Greek myth, said to have a serpentine lower body and the lust for human blood and flesh. Also take note of the Strix of Greek myth, associated with owls, as is Lilith, and a lust for human flesh and blood. Strix later became corrupted into the Romanian word for vampire and the Italian word for witch. I would also compare her to the Morrigan "phantom queen" of the Celts and the Welsh Morganna. Also note the connection between Morganna and the association with the blessed isle of Avallonis. Avallonis, meaning the place of apples and which is likley synonmous with Eden. There is also the Norse goddess Idun who watches over golden apples of immortality.

This avian quality, especially being winged, makes me think she is some kind of fallen angel rather than the Serpent of Eden though. A connection to Eden itself seems likely though.

It definitely presents more mysteries to be solved.

A missing link or proof of a curse? You decide.

Ball Python shown with spur (or claw)

I've seen a yellow Burmese Python with dual spurs on both sides. It's spurs were curved like talons.

Boas also have been known to have spurs. This trait has been seen in both males and females of Pythons and Boas.

Curse:
Adam = cultivation difficult -still true
Eve = Birth pains difficult -still true
Serpent = snake dropped out of tree and still a snake - doesn't sound like a curse to me. Had limbs removed - now that sounds like a curse
Serpent = Got no limbs - still true

It's hard to set a physical example with an invisible spirit creature. The serpent suffered because of one spirit creatures actions. It's kind of like the Gulf oil spill. All the creatures in the gulf must suffer because of the actions of a few corporations. There will be a reminder of the consequences of neglegence.

Sorry for derailing your thread. The original quoted scripture got me going.

reply to post by lostinspace


Based on the text and universal myths about serpentine and draconic creatures, I don't think the Serpent in Eden was a Burmese python. If it was anything that can be found in Burma, it was like the mythical Naga.

Don't forget the Serpent wasn't expelled like Adam and Eve. I wouldn't expect to find it or its seed on earth under normal circumstances.

Interesting thread. This is something I have not thought about before.

During the conversation it was noted that the creature would eat dust. We both realized that Adam was formed from dust and Adamah means earth. At this point we both wondered if the curse didn't actually mean dust but meant instead humans.

I am inclined to say no, but I am still thinking on it. Based on Gen. 2:7 says that "man [thus] became a living soul" ie. no longer dirt, but BECAME something different.

But then there is the passage in Ecc. 12:7

And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God, Who gave it.

Which seems to imply that there is a separation of body and soul that occurs, and that the body is still just dirt.

However, the Ecc. passage seems to be in conflict with the concept of resurrection detailed in Eze. 37 and other places. Since the resurrection has such a major importance to believers of the bible, I am inclined to believe that the Kohelet of Ecc. was just using figurative language.

About the Yam/Lotan/Leviathan story in the Ugaritic tablets. There is a different but somewhat similar story in the Talmud that basically states that God made 2 leviathans, one male and one female. The male one he castrated and the female one he killed and preserved in salt to be part of a feast for the righteous people in the world to come.
B. B. 74b

Now, so far as the infamous Serpent and legs... Rashi's commentary on the verse says that "it had legs, but they were cut off". It would seem that he is referencing the midrash in Gen. Rabba 20:5 that states

At the time God said to the serpent, "You shall walk on your belly", the ministering angels descended and lopped off his hands and his feet. Then his voice was heard from one end of the world to the other.

However, a modern commentary examining the grammar of the passage has a different view. Dr. J. H. Hertz (Late Chief Rabbi of the British Empire) states in his book The Pentateuch and Haftorahs (I'm paraphrasing) it did not have legs to begin with and should be better translated as continue to crawl.

Of course, if it had no limbs to begin with as Rabbi Hertz said, then I don't see why it would be mentioned as part of the curse placed on the Serpent.


J.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
Now look at the Beast from the Sea in Revelations 13,

And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

Seven Heads
Ten Horns
Ten Crowns

The Beast from the Sea is the false construct of church and state governing the lives of Men.

The seven heads represent political systems. Those that have passed those that stand and the one that will be reinstated.

The horns represent religions. The crowns represent the principalities or dark-forces that founded or are the main focus for the religion. They are blasphemous because they claim divinity and domain over humanity.

reply to post by J-in-TX


Thank you for your well researched response.

I have looked at Genesis 2:7 and other verses that compare as well.

And the L-RD G-d formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul

G-d forms man from the aphar of the adamah and breathes into that form the breath of life, and the man becomes a living nephesh.

Nephesh appears to be the result of the combination Neshama and Aphar. In this sense the Dust of the Earth is the vessel of the Breath of Life.

If the serpents have to consume Aphar, they are unable to consume the "breath". The breath returns to G-d.

Genesis 3:19

for dust you are and to dust you will return

This should be the body.

Psalm 104:29

You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.

Our existence appears to be totally dependent on the breath of life, not the dust.

I don't think the consumption of the vessel can prevent the resurrection on Judgement Day, as G-d can form a new vessel from the dust. Also the consumption of flesh or blood will still leave the bones as alluded to in Ezekiel 37. Personally I don't think even the bones are required for awakening.

I do agree with the view there had to be at least two Leviathans, but I'm unsure how they relate to the Tannim. G-d calls Leviathan king of all the sons of pride, a reference to the Tannim or "dragons".

I am also inclined to believe the Serpent in Eden also had a mate. We don't know for sure if it was the male or female. I know some traditions have the Serpent as female. Yet I don't think the Serpents of Eden are the same as the Tannim, though it is debatable.

I don't agree with Rabbi Hertz. From my reading it does say on its belly it goes. I am inclined to believe it lost its legs and the ability to walk, but I don't think it is the same as the suborder Serpentes. Based on worldwide myths I am thinking more along the lines of something bigger and weirder, especially considering they were not expelled from Eden.

reply to post by teapot


I am aware of the various interpratations of the horns, crowns and heads of the Beast of the Sea.

I was pointing out a difference between it and the Pyrros Dragon. The Pyrros Dragon has Seven Crowns as opposed to the Beast of the Sea's Ten Crowns.

There is a mystery there to be solved.

The other mystery is what do the heads, crowns, and horns of the Pyrros Dragon symbolize. They are not human powers.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Im new here, but I thought perhaps I would point out an interesting fact on this subject that i've always found interesting. When Satan tempted Eve and sin entered into humanity God punished satan by "going on his belly" and "eat dust all your days" yada, yada......From this I gleen one important fact, that obviously the "serpent" did not previously "crawl on his belly" but moved about through some other process. Why would God inflict as a punishment something which the "serpent" was already doing? Thats because satan was not a serpent. He was a dragon. The original hebrew text, written presumably by Moses, uses the word "tanniyn", which was mistranslated as serpent. Tanniyn is lexicon for dragon or sea monster, both of which are commented on many, many times in the bible. It appears satan was not a snake, writhing around a tree whispering into Eve's ear, but a dinosaur-like creature that lost his legs as punishment for tempting man.

reply to post by Lotuseater


Im sorry, I should have read further, as it seems someone has already written about the dragon misinterpretation. My fault.

www.biblestudytools.com...

However, Adam excused his sin, and entreated God not to be angry at him, and laid the blame of what was done upon his wife; and said that he was deceived by her, and thence became an offender; while she again accused the serpent. But God allotted him punishment, because he weakly submitted to the counsel of his wife; and said the ground should not henceforth yield its fruits of its own accord, but that when it should be harassed by their labor, it should bring forth some of its fruits, and refuse to bring forth others. He also made Eve liable to the inconveniency of breeding, and the sharp pains of bringing forth children; and this because she persuaded Adam with the same arguments wherewith the serpent had persuaded her, and had thereby brought him into a calamitous condition. He also deprived the serpent of speech, out of indignation at his malicious disposition towards Adam. Besides this, he inserted poison under his tongue, and made him an enemy to men; and suggested to them, that they should direct their strokes against his head, that being the place wherein lay his mischievous designs towards men, and it being easiest to take vengeance on him, that way. And when he had deprived him of the use of his feet, he made him to go rolling all along, and dragging himself upon the ground. And when God had appointed these penalties for them, he removed Adam and Eve out of the garden into another place.

**************************************************
You should be able to figure it out from what I posted. (Remember the serpent was punished)

Also Flavius Josephus was a great historian who wrote a lot of material. He was one of the few people around that walked the earth at the same time Jesus did. What you will find interesting is that Flavius wrote exactly what Jesus talked about in scriptures, except Flavius went into great detail because he witnessed the destruction of Jerusalem he was there. Their end not ours.

Originally posted by lostinspace
The serpent family was cursed to be a reminder of what happened in the garden of eden. Satan needed a mouthpiece to talk through because of the rules set by God. Humans may not remember what exactly happended there but the angels sure do.

The creature that Satan used to talk to Eve was a four limbed lizard. It is highly possible this creature had wings like a Pterodactyl. Its limbs were removed and it was forced to live on its belly and appear to lick the dust as it crawled.

Small portions of the limbs can still be seen on the Python. Hasn't anyone ever seen the bird claws on male Pythons? That's all that left of the lower limbs. The upper portion cannot be detected.

Yep we sure do all remember.

Go on your close the serpent became a S---e

reply to post by MikeboydUS

Our existence appears to be totally dependent on the breath of life, not the dust.

Very well said. I think you just answered your own question from the OP, my friend.

I'm with you in a mutual disagreement with Rabbi Hertz (on this point). It just doesn't make sense (to me anyway) The command to go on it's belly is mentioned as part of the curse. If it were as he suggests then it would be mentioned in the Serpent's description in v. 1. Something like "The Serpent that crawls on it's belly was more crafty/cunning than the rest...."

As to the tannim. Well, I must say that I am a little puzzled. The text says in Gen. 1:21 that God made hataninim hagedolim. Not just the taninim, but great/giant tanninim. (The word taninim has an unusual spelling here. I'm not sure what the reason for that is, but it should be noted.) I would think that a tannin gadol would be a good description of the Leviathian. In fact, Rashi connects this verse with the aggadah in Baba Bathra that I mentioned in my previous post.

However, the verse continues with "God saw that it was good." And the next verse states "Be fruitful and become many, and fill the waters of the seas." But the Talmud story doesn't fit. In the Talmud story it is most certainly NOT good, and God has to intervene in order to prevent the Leviathan reproducing.

Far be it for me to disagree with Rashi, but the text not only says it is good, but God gives the sea creatures a blessing to reproduce. By comparing the two accounts, I am coming to the conclusion that the Leviathan (and it's counterpart) were not part of this creation on the fifth day. It just doesn't add up that God would give a blessing and then immediately counter that blessing.

If you will notice the terrestrial creatures of the sixth day creation do not receive such a blessing. It is only mankind that receives a blessing. The rest are just kind of left out of God's blessings. If the Serpent was destined to become cursed, then that would explain why the land creatures were not given a blessing like the marine and flying creatures. A lack of such a blessing might have prevented the Serpent from reproducing. This would fall in line with your idea that the Serpent had a mate, but in my scenario they do not reproduce.

I have to admit, I have never really focused on the early chapters of Gen. The really interesting stuff begins in ch. 12 and the following. This thread has got me looking at material I haven't given much attention to in the past. I thank you for that.

It appears to me that the Leviathan is something special that was not created on the fifth day and did not receive the blessing on that day. Anything beyond that is going to be speculation. I will speculate that this thing has a special function and the time for it to perform it's function has not yet come.

J.

reply to post by J-in-TX


Thank you again for your enlightening response.

There is definitely a mystery with the Leviathan.

Are you familiar with Rabbi Akiva's saying about humanity being made after a "Primal Image", that Philo calls the Logos, or the Adam Kadmon from the Zohar?

I wonder if the Leviathan could be the "Primal Dragon" that serves as the image or archetype of all the Serpents, including the Great Tannim?



[edit on 29/5/10 by MikeboydUS]

reply to post by J-in-TX


When the serpent was cursed and God changed him into a snake there were no more serpents that line and all the creatures in the beginning that spoke with a voice were destroyed. These were what we call dinosaurs, etc... the prehistoric animals.

This is something we are to learn from that animals should not speak with a human voice. What has been happening during this present time? Mankind has been creating hybrid beings, animals with human parts in labs. People are having dreams and visions of aliens and ufos. Its our future that we see. The good news is we learned not to create other beings and play god this is why we are seeing them as dimensional. They never come into existence.

Like the story of the great flood, another lesson we learned there.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by lostinspace

 

Don't forget the Serpent wasn't expelled like Adam and Eve. I wouldn't expect to find it or its seed on earth under normal circumstances.

I would assume the serpent wasn't expelled like Adam and Eve because it was just an animal. Adam and Eve had free will to choose to eat from the tree of knowledge or from the tree of life. The serpent had no desire to eat from those trees because the rule did not apply to it. The serpent was a tool used by satan. There was another account in the bible where an angel made it seem like a donkey was talking. If anyone else was to be cast out of eden it would have been Satan. Genesis 3:15 is directed at Satan and Genesis 3:14 is directed at the animal. The seed of the serpent in reality were to be all the humans that became rebellious like Satan, Adam and Eve. The transformation of the actual serpent and all his kind on the planet was a physical manifestation of a lowly position Satan would be from then on.

Satan must have thought the original form of the serpent was pretty cool in order for him to want to use it. I would assume the serpent would have looked a bit like Vermithrax Pejoritive from the movie Dragon Slayer, likely in a smaller form. Magic and Dragons go hand in hand so I bet the serpent's true form is like the magical dragon we have come to know down to this day.

edit: dragon link fix

[edit on 1-6-2010 by lostinspace]