Today in NYC ...

Thanks for bringing back some sanity to ats, lately I've been wondering why am I still a member here. But I see that the good people on ats also have a voice!

I live in a multicultural neighbourhood in Berlin, and I cringe everytime I hear that multiculturalism doesn't work. It works for us! We have huge Turkish and Arabian minorities (in fact a new mosque opened close to my house), we have Russians, Polish, Italians, Spanish, Koreans, lots of ethnic shops and restaurants.

We also have very little criminality and virtually no social tension. In fact the only problem we have is gentrification, which shows that even rich people want to move here, even though they could very well move into a neighbourhood without minorities.

I've lived in mono-cultural places before and all I can say is that it's boring. I like it colourful and diverse!

Well, well. Who would’ve thought that there are regular people beyond multiculturism uh? Thread could serve as breathing lesson maybe? s+f for that.

I’m a rural kinda person but a city like NY is no less attractive to my few urban urges. Urbanism always seems to get a bad rap but there’s something extraordinary that happens in a city that is being overlooked. When apparent differences converge just fine.
Multiculturalism is possible and agreeably viable when there’s a common denomination that unite the cultures/ethnicities. My first guess would be :RESPECT of others and basic laws.

The stinking xenophobia that has been plaguing this site is no secret anymore. The funny thing is, some bigots have the nerve to proudly blow their cover by purposely blurring the line between immigrants and illegals to final blatant racial profiling. And then they go on insulting the intelligence of those who are calling them out by accusing them of pulling the race card. Geez!

They all proceed the same trolling way. Making others lose their time and energy on futile debates with baseless circular logics only to finally out their own selves.

On a side note, how ironic that the two issues that have been prevailing on this site for the past two months as I can remember are the immigration issue and the Et issue. It’s like when two worlds collide. One brings the closed-mindness, the xenophobia, the bigotry. The other brings the opened-mindness, the collaboration, the inclusion. I’m having a hard time figuring how those who can barely make it above politic in the former world can even fathom the latter and I often wonder which ones will really represent ATS ultimately. A site that dares to tackle wonders beyond our reality MUST have at least, a few progressive, intellectually-honest minds to give it credibility.


[edit on 24-5-2010 by Exv8densez]

Originally posted by Wallachian
Thanks for bringing back some sanity to ats, lately I've been wondering why am I still a member here. But I see that the good people on ats also have a voice!

I live in a multicultural neighbourhood in Berlin, and I cringe everytime I hear that multiculturalism doesn't work. It works for us! We have huge Turkish and Arabian minorities (in fact a new mosque opened close to my house), we have Russians, Polish, Italians, Spanish, Koreans, lots of ethnic shops and restaurants.

We also have very little criminality and virtually no social tension. In fact the only problem we have is gentrification, which shows that even rich people want to move here, even though they could very well move into a neighbourhood without minorities.

I've lived in mono-cultural places before and all I can say is that it's boring. I like it colourful and diverse!

Rest assured there are plenty of good folks here on ATS. I think people tend to underestimate the psychological value of being able to vent openly in a mostly-intelligent environment such as ATS. Though I only registered here a few weeks ago, I've been "lurking" since the 2008 elections.

I know for me, I have basically no friends that I can discuss most of these kinds of issues with--they're either too dense or too apathetic. I like my social sites the way I like my ice cream sundaes--with a few nuts here and there. Heck, I might just be one of them.

Any-hoo, there's also a lot to be said for natural segregation--this is very different than mandated segregation (which I'm completely against). I've spent a lot of time in Chicago which sounds similar to NYC in many ways. I love the diversity in Chicago, but it's all segregated--naturally segregated. You can go to the Polish district, or Lithuanian, or Lao, Thai, German, Irish. Pretty much, you name it, and it's there. Going to these places is about as close to traveling the world as many of us will ever get.

That's my main objection for the educational system getting too-carried away about stressing cultural diversity--it's almost like they're trying to run all the cultures through some sort of strainer, then add a bunch of water, and do away with the differences that make these very cultures, well...cultures. Why do we have to all be the same? Being different is exactly what I like about other cultures. Being an American, of course, I love my own American culture--but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the beauty in other cultures. By the way, I'm not referring to language. I feel strongly that anyone that comes into the USA should be required to speak English, if for no other reason than basic human respect. I know if I were going to be going to another country, I'd learn that language as best as I could whether or not it was required. I digress.

This was a nice thread that was started. I little close to the Bob Marley/Flowery Power for my usual tastes, but a breath of fresh air nonetheless.

Originally posted by shauny
I live in Edinburgh, Scotland, UK.

We have the same here, all faiths, religions and cultures.
There are no problems.

Growing up, there were shops run by pakistani's.
That was it. Now we have all the above.

How is it in small corners of the globe, all over the globe, people from all these countries, with all these different religions and beliefs can live together.
But on the main political stage, we cant.

Good post.
S&F

Well i come from the midlands and we are years ahead of scotland when it comes to mass immigration and few of the white people share your point of view that these immigrants have made life better.

They are very nice at first and when you wlak into the local (Fill in blanks) they give your kids free sweets but when they become a bigger minority you will get black looks as soon as you go into the shops.

Scotland has a lot of unemployed so don't try pulling the old chestnet about the immigrants only doing jobs the local don't like

"There are no problems."

No none in the midland because the media has a news blackout on clashes that happen and even the school kids will telll you about major inter faith fights at school.

Them bangles make lovly knuckel dusters except they have the added advantage of having a sharpe edge and the police won't stop you waring them.



Read about this case up in scotland

www.guardian.co.uk...

Police investigating the claims questioned more than 120 people and studied hours of CCTV footage.

Turns out to be a pack of lies blamed on the 'Racists' but let me tell you in the middlands the son of a friend of mine got robbed at knife point by a gang of asian youths and the police did naff all and this is far from an isolated case.

Talk to you in ten years time and see if you still think the same.

We drove to NYC in the summer of 1971. As we approached, the air seemed to get heavier. No kidding. We didn't even realize that we were getting closer but we could feel the air get heavier. Was it too many bad vibes concentrated together. We will never know. But you feel an oppression as you approach. Now this was a long time ago, and you can tell I don't travel much. I've been in places where the population was more dense and didn't feel oppressed. And we had not even got to New York itself, we just stopped for gas a few miles out. I'm not into psychic vibes or anything. But we felt a definite sense of oppression. When we were actually in New York we didn't feel as bad. Actually on our only earlier trip to New York, also 1971, we were under so much pressure trying to find our friend's house from the subway, that we didn't notice any general feeling of oppression. But we were appalled to find that our friend spent a huge amount of money to live is a really horrible, smelly, rat infested apartment.
Maybe it was just the air polution that caused the oppressive feeling.
If you really want red neck racists, try Green Bay, Wisconsin. They will threaten you at a gas station if you don't look white enough.
On the other hand in Chicago one winter, I waited a half an hour for a guy to pour a cup of coffee in a gas station food place, because we were not dark enough. It wasn't like he was doing anything else. He just wanted me to know that he didn't want to wait on me.
I can remember a conversation I had with one woman at the Zoo in San Francisco, also 1971, actually she is the one that came up and started talking to me, about how terrible multiculturism was and how we shouldn't tolerate having directions in more than one language. I pointed out to her that my child was very slightly darker complexioned than her child and that I was a part of the problem and not part of the cure, and she walked off in a huff.


[edit on 24-5-2010 by m khan]

You know, people here are racists too, they just happen to tolerate it better. Another thing about NYC, is that whole large sections or neighborhoods are divided by race or nationality, unlike many other places in America. Many other places do it to an extent but not the extent to which it is done in NYC.

Also, people in NYC tend to tolerate each other better, period. It's not just by race but by other factors as well and I think it's due to the actual size of the city. For instance, people will tolerate mentally ill people or even gays just the same as they do others of different race, creed or nationality. When enclosed near so many people, ordinary everyday problems relating to other people kind of wash out any relative differences between those people.

Again, it's not that people aren't racists, it's that it is tolerated a little more. Take for instance last Friday when I was at my doctor around 3rd and 72nd in Manhattan. Anyway, I was walking down the street about to enter the building when a black emo guy squeezed in between a latino to get through the entrance in a hurry. The latino said something like, "stupid N-word" (though not in those exact words) and the black guy kind of just laughed and kept walking with not so much as head-turn by anyone of the 50 or so people going about their day. If this would have happened anywhere else in the States, it would have been a big deal and someone would be getting sued or even jailed for life-long emotional damage and painful agony that the black person would have suffered. In a lot of other areas, making such a remark would be held as contemptible as molesting a child or robbing a bank.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

--airspoon




[edit on 24-5-2010 by airspoon]

reply to post by schrodingers dog


I spent one crazy summer in NYC. The first time I rode in a cab, LOL, I thought it would be my last day on Earth as we weaved in and out of the traffic!

I remember the WTC looming large and how wonderous the city looked at sunset as I listened to "Heartbeat City" by the Cars...

Hate it or Love it, NYC always has some lessons to teach and if you can't handle diversity you better seek sanctuary someplace else.

I still remember those days fondly.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Thank you so much for this post! I really needed it this morning.

I have always been a firm opponent of illegal immigration and of the position that anyone here illegally should be rounded up and sent back home, wherever that is.

But recently, I have felt many of the same feelings expressed in your OP and I'm backing off my hard-ass stance. Not because I think there isn't a problem. I do. I think SOMETHING needs to be done, but I no longer think that we can just push everyone out when it is SO hard and expensive and time-consuming to become a legal citizen here.

To me, the line between immigrant and illegal immigrant is blurring and I'm VERY thankful for that. I feel like my heart is opening. It feels GOOD to not be so damn judgmental! Who am I to ridicule these people who are looking to feed their families??? Shame on me. I was wrong. And I've only been realizing this in the past few days. So, for me, the timing of your post is perfect!

I've lived in the Southwest half my long life and I LOVE the mixing of cultures here! And we all get along just fine! Hispanic, Native American and white folks. We all bring our own color and flavor to the area and its unique and special because of that.

Originally posted by nine-eyed-eel
you don't really understand another culture until they outnumber you, hee-hee-hee...good luck with that.

I guess all the minorities in the US understand "white culture" (whatever that is - I don't even understand it) pretty well, then. I don't mind being outnumbered. It means nothing.

Part of the problem is that people get TOO comfortable living in the majority and having the majority rule. And when another "group's" numbers start growing, they feel threatened that this other "group" is going to start acting bullish (like THEY did when THEY were in the majority) and make THEIR majority rule. Majority Rule is FINE when you're in the majority (to these people) but when someone else starts to threaten that majority, they get scared.

Originally posted by 302Found
That is the point, being an "illegal alien" makes them automatically criminals.

I used to tell myself the same thing. A nice, clear, concise line that I could draw to justify my position. Unfortunately, it's NOT that clear. I don't know about you, but I suspect that you've broken the law in your life. I know I have. So, if my suspicions are correct, you are a criminal, too. And so am I. We are ALL criminals. Now where's that line, again?

Originally posted by Kratos40
Let's attack what is really going on. That is drugs and and a new indentured servitude.

THIS is exactly right! You hit the nail on the head. The drug lords, criminal behavior surrounding that and the slavery class. What we have here in the US is a class of slave workers. And THAT'S why we're not going to send the Mexican immigrants back to Mexico.

Just imagine if the 500,000 illegal immigrants in Arizona stood up and walked away from the pesticide laden crop fields, that contain OUR food, and went home. Those crops would rot in the ground. Yeah, you'd have maybe 5,000 young people MAX who would be willing and able to do the job during the summer, but they would have to be paid minimum wage, and before they could even legally go to work, they'd have to clean up the pesticide situation. The price of food would skyrocket and there would be enormous backlash from just that one action. It's just ONE consequence of taking the drastic action of sending them all home. Just something to think about.

We need immigration reform! No doubt! These people shouldn't be treated like slaves! They're people! But I'm afraid that some of us have forgotten that.

ANYWAY, thanks for the great post, sdog. You're one of the people that makes ATS shine! Thank you so much for your contributions!

Nice OP! It is good to hear some positive comments regarding immigration.
Now correct me if Im wrong,,,wasnt our country(oops company) founded by "illegal immigrants"?
Anyway, i completely understand the lure of diversity.it is magnificant! the language, styles of dress,and the foods,,,,well,,,u guys get it.
IMHO,,the whole thing is racism,period point blank!!!first it was terrorism(colored people) then it was healthcare reform(colored people) then immigration(colored people),,,im curious to see what the next big political issue is!!!that ones gonna be a doozie!
Someone(who isnt racist)please give me a legitimate reason for the uproar.these folks live in squalor, are paid meager wages doing the jobs no one wants to do and are proud to call themselves AMERICANS! even though the ones that are here "legally" will be discrimanated against just as well(good job AZ) so call it what it is,,,,diversity made our country the(sorry company) the most coveted land on the planet,,,,unfortanately we are no longer FREE and its been along time since weve been BRAVE!

Originally posted by nine-eyed-eel
reply to post by schrodingers dog

 

"A cheap holiday in other people's misery"...what was that from again?

sex pistols - "holiday in the sun"

just don't start about the "new belsen" bit of that track, ok ppl?

boiling hot here in london..

23

I know it is necessary to define our borders, and someone crossing the border illegally has committed a crime, but I don't want to see the government hunting down and arresting people. Our law enforcement is becoming more and more a police state gestapo anyway.
I have a friend who is not an illegal alien, who was born here, but cannot get citizenship papers because of not being born in a hospital. That person is living in hell, can't drive a car, can't get a job anymore and is living in fear of being deported, but was born right here in these united states. It should be possible for someone like that to straighten out their citizenship without getting deported. But it isn't. If you don't have proof, then you are not a citizen. You probably don't hear these stories, because these people do not come forward. A person is guilty unless they are able to prove their innocence. At least that person is not required to pay the national debt, and is not a property of the state, not having a birth certificate.
Obama says we are not defined by our borders. What are we defined by? We are sure not going to sit on our hands and allow him to overthrow our country by force and form any North America Union.
The tazer happy cops trained by DHS are salivating at the idea of opening fire on the American people. They've been brainwashed by all the free toys they have gotten from the feds (as though not paid for by the taxpayers) (if money was invented still it was invented by the fed and loaned to us at interest)(not to mention the inflation of increasing the money supply) and now want to try them out. We have an out of control government who wants an out of control gestapo police to totally destroy our republic.
We hold certain rights as in-alienable, given by God. The right to life. Unless you have committed some horrible crime you should have the right to keep your life. If someone crosses a border illegally they still have the right to be treated as a human being. A lawbreaker yes, but still a human being. Our government is falling apart totally. The govt wants to declare people that the government accuses of perpetuating terrorist acts, even the acts that the govt did themselves like 911, as less than human. But the government who actually did those acts is above the law. The criminal government still has a high esteem among the stupid people who still have their heads in the sand.


[edit on 24-5-2010 by m khan]

Having spent the weekend (still here in fact) in Hackney East London. I noticed many things and thought about makin a thread, but seeing as you've started one about NYC. I'll chip in with my London experience. Saturday about 8 of us went and set up a BBQ on London Fields. The park was packed full, It was like every nation on the planet had some representation in the Park. it was a great atmosphere until later in the afternoon.

At about 3 in the afternoon, a medical helicopter began to circle the Park, next thing the police were there, telling everyone to move. there had been a shooting between two rival gangs, with an innocent by stander getting shot in the back. It really put a downer on a really beautiful day.

just yesterday in queens i believe at a block party like 5-10 people were shot. one fatally. it's not as peachy as OP makes it sound over here

Been to NYC twice and I have also spent time in many of the major cities of the United States of America.

Ethnic and cultural diversity is and always has been truly AMERICAN. Immigration has built this nation.

Illegal and legal immigration in the past is not the current issue.

Because of social programs and education grants etc. the American southwest is overrun with illegal immigrants who are here illegally because they can be, they exploit the system and burden taxpayers, in some areas illegals have brought with them higher crime rates and drug gangs. Radical extremists and separatist groups like La Raza who do not want to live here, but want to take it for their own land, as they believe it is stolen from them. They do not want to be Americans, but they are here nonetheless.

A lot of legal citizens are fed-up with the situation, and that includes many Hispanic Americans, as well as other ethnic groups and cultures.

We need to enforce immigration laws, and allow LEGAL immigration.

Neglecting this issue will only make it worse over time.

This is not the fault of illegal immigrants, nor the states or the people, it is the failure of the federal government to secure the borders and have a better system in place to control legal immigration.

This problem isn't going to go away just because we have a feel good day about the past and the role of immigrants in this nation.

When states are no longer able to provide services to anyone, including illegals then everyone will be bitching about this all over again.

That said, if we were in a good economy the immigration issue would have continued to be ignored.

It can only get worse, even more so if neglected.

It is a nice day here in Denver today as well.

Nice post SD.

Let me see if I have it right.

If you don't wholly embrace multiculturalism, you are a bigot.

It is alright to dislike bigots, possibly even hate them, but this isn't a hate thread.

Big city, big mind, small town, small mind.

I have been to New York city, and just like most big cities in the U.S., it is multi-cultural, yet still has its own style. Loved the place, had a great time.

I have also been to small town America, no, not so multicultural, but still great places, with active art communities and wide ranges of opinions. Loved the place, had a great time.

My experience is that the percentage of bigots in small less diversified communities is no higher than the percentage in big cities.

When you get up in the morning and you go wash your face, and you see that bigot staring back at you, don't react negatively, smile, say hi, you might find he or she isn't such a bad person after all. That's the approach I try to take.

NYC isnt for everyone that's for sure.
I've been there a handful of times, each several years and mayors apart.
I walked alone from one end of the island to the other and really enjoyed it.
It's a small world after all was the feeling it gave as you could experience every single type of culture and soci-economic and individual alive.
My sweet spot was at the end of Bryant park near checkers and chess, downing turbo cappucinos, then heading out for the day on foot.
I havent been there in over a decade, but yes, the blend, is possible once the postions and prejudices are moved out of the way.

It still doesnt make ignoring procedure and protocol for immigration acceptable though.

Thanks for shaking the memory tree, bocce at the vagabondo, I wonder if it's still there?

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Great post! Multiculturalism is one of the best things about our country, and hatred of the other is one of the most effective strategies for the Elite to divide us.

Rightly said SD. You just brought some beautiful sunshine onto this topic. I live in a multifaith society and to be honest I think we've progressed immensely because of it. When will people come to understand it is not the race, sex, religon that matters...it is their heart.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by schrodingers dog


SD, one of the wisest people I have ever had the honor of coming across. Truly a great mind. Thank you for sharing your insights.

I have been to NYC a few times, and am amazed by how cohesive it is, not in spite of its multiculturalism, but because of it. Yeah, among some there is the narrow minded and racist view. But the majority of the people of NYC are warm, welcoming, friendly people who are just as excited to see you "make it" as they would be if they "made it".

The one difference between NYC and the southern border lies in the word "committment". In NYC you have people who are committed to the US, or at least to making a life in the US. They "stood in line" and earned citizenship.

On the southern border, however, you have people who don't have this committment. There is no "skin in the game", so to speak. So if things go sour, they can just hop the border back home. Often, this is the plan. Very often we have people come over for the express purpose of committing a crime (kill a person who didn't pay the drug cartel for that last shipment of coke, for example).

There is a subtle cultural fact down here: hispanic people don't like to be dark skinned. It is a sign of poverty, as you get really dark when you work in the fields.

I like the darker skin. Dark copper...man it is beautiful. But if you tell a darker skinned latina how beautiful her skin is, she might take it as a backhanded insult.

I was lucky...my wife has darker skin naturally. My God, she takes my breath away. I love the Mexican people and culture, the ones in the US and the ones in Mexico. All i want is for the ones in the US to be here legally. To have an investment of time and effort, so that they know how precious being an American is.

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
Just some random thoughts ...

And a cop on every corner or maybe now its 2 cops on every corner. America doesnt have an immigration policy. It has an INVASION policy. 3 million people a year entering this country every year will amount to 300 million in a hundred years. That doesnt count their children which will number in the billions.

2 immigrants with a birthrate of 4 will produce more than 100 descendants in 80 years.




[edit on 24-5-2010 by RRokkyy]