Revelation; The Woman in Heaven

Originally posted by colbe
The description in 12:1 is royal and we know via the Old Testament, the mother of the king is
queen.

Incidentally, this is not so, strictly speaking.
The King's wife is the real Queen. And we all know that the church is the bride of Christ. QED again.
The normal title of the king's mother is "Queen Mother". (Rather than "king-mother", which was the idiotic invention of some British newspapers in the time when princess Diana was alive)

I hope you're not relying on the fact that Jehu called Jezebel "the queen your mother". Jezebel is hardly a good precedent. A model for ch17 rather than ch12.

Here's a fresh idea....the name Nostradamus means 'Our Lady' in Latin....

the famous seer who predicted future events was born Jewish but converted to Catholic for practical reasons

the 'Lady' clothed in the Sun with the moon as a footstool may be the symbolism of Sun/Light being prophecy & revelation which the person 'Nostradamus' brought to the world in the dark part of the middle ages

being Jewish he also counted time in the Lunar calendar, hence the moon at 'her' (Our Lady; Nostradamus) feet.

perhaps that chapter of Revelation was meant to reflect on Nostradamus, like he himself said that his attraction would increase 500 years after his own time... he also says the end of the world will be in 3797 not in 2012


RE::

The Prophecies of Nostradamus - Divine Mother (Holy Spirit ...
Nostradamus (1503-1566) was a Jewish prophet, astrologer, astronomer and physician. The very meaning of Nostradamus means "Our Lady" in Latin. ...
www.adishakti.org/nostradamus.htm -

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by colbe
The description in 12:1 is royal and we know via the Old Testament, the mother of the king is
queen.

Incidentally, this is not so, strictly speaking.
The King's wife is the real Queen. And we all know that the church is the bride of Christ. QED again.
The normal title of the king's mother is "Queen Mother". (Rather than "king-mother", which was the idiotic invention of some British newspapers in the time when princess Diana was alive)

I hope you're not relying on the fact that Jehu called Jezebel "the queen your mother". Jezebel is hardly a good precedent. A model for ch17 rather than ch12.

edit on 21-8-2011 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

DISRA, Hello,

My quote you pasted refers to the Queen. We have been talking about the "woman" in Revelation 12:1. The description in 12:1 sounds very royal. We're not talking about "the bride of Christ" right now. You are trying
to narrow the meaning of the "woman" to being the Church only. Doesn't work. Above all, the "woman" in
Revelation is Mary.

The Jezebel reference? Scripture doesn't say every queen (the mother of the king) is holy. To help, some more Scripture, proof, the mother not the wife is Queen. The greatest king is Our Lord. So, it perfectly fits, Mary His mother is Queen of Heaven and Earth. Truly. People have to stop reading then believing anti-Marian writings. Genesis 3:15 and Our Lord's addressing His mother in the Gospel as "woman" are no coincidence.

____________________

2 Kings 10:13 he came across kinsmen of Ahaziah, king of Judah. "Who are you?" he asked. "We are kinsmen of Ahaziah," they replied. "We are going down to visit the princes and the family of the queen mother." 14 "Take them alive," Jehu ordered. They were taken alive, forty- two in number, then slain at the pit of Beth-eked. Not one of them was spared.

1 Kings 15:9-13 and Jeremiah 13:18 speaks of Queen Mothers as well.

reply to post by St Udio

I warned Colbe to be wary about verbal coincidences. In this case the coincidence doesn't even appear in the text- the expression "Our lady" is post-Biblical.
Don't you think that the life of Nostradamus is a little trivial to be the fulfilment of this chapter? Especially with everything that it involves; the salvation of the world, the enmity with Satan, the "flight into the wilderness" to escape from Satan's revenge?
I think I've given enough reasoning to identify her as the more faithful counterpart of the harlot woman in ch17.

Originally posted by colbe

The description in 12:1 is royal and we know via the Old Testament, the mother of the king is
queen.

My quote you pasted refers to the Queen.

Yes, I know it does, and I was arguing rationally and legitimately from that reference.
I was accepting the first part of your sentence and disputing the second. I was pointing out that it is the wife of the king, not the mother of the king, who is the queen. That is why your argument "This is about the queen, therefore it must be about the mother" is not valid.

To help, some more Scripture, proof, the mother not the wife is Queen.

You say this, but you don't actually offer any scriptural proof that "the mother is queen".
The normal usage of language is that the queen is the king's wife.
If you want to claim that the Old Testament goes against this normal use of language, then you must quote me an actual text that says so.

You then quote some Biblical references to the phrase "Queen Mother". I'm not sure why, because they're just giving Biblical support the to the same point I'm making; viz. that the mother of the King is called Queen Mother, not Queen.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by St Udio

 

I warned Colbe to be wary about verbal coincidences. In this case the coincidence doesn't even appear in the text- the expression "Our lady" is post-Biblical.
Don't you think that the life of Nostradamus is a little trivial to be the fulfilment of this chapter? Especially with everything that it involves; the salvation of the world, the enmity with Satan, the "flight into the wilderness" to escape from Satan's revenge?
I think I've given enough reasoning to identify her as the more faithful counterpart of the harlot woman in ch17.

Denying Mary is the "woman" in Private Revelation is the fruit of "private interpretation of Scripture" which is a heresy. God did not give you or me the authority to interpret Holy Scripture.

We can know God's plan. The Church who determined the Canon of Scripture was also given the authority by God to interpret the Bible. The same Church states the "woman" in Revelation 12:1 is Mary, Our Lord's mother.

It is no "verbal coincidence" Our Lord addressing His mother from the Cross as "woman." Nor the other times
where Jesus called His dearest mother "woman" in the Gospel DESRA.

There is sometimes a double meaning to Scripture. Primarily, the woman in Revelation 12:1 is Mary. To help....

__ ___ ___ ___

The book of the Apocalypse poses a major difficulty for non-Catholics since when dealing with the book of the Apocalypse they often fail to keep in mind that many of the terms used are symbolic as for example it is clear that the dragon (Apoc 12: 4) is satan yet in this dragon is also embodied all the Children of the Devil (John 8:44 - what we might term the kingdom of Satan). St. Thomas states that "Prophecies are sometimes uttered about things which existed at the time in question but are not uttered primarily with reference to them but in so far as they are a figure of things to come, therefore the Holy Ghost has provided that when such prophecies are uttered some details should be inserted which go beyond the actual thing done so that our mind may raised to the thing signified"

Although it is true to say that the book of Apocalypse contains a revelation, which had its first hand meaning to the early Christians yet it also has a meaning for the Christians of today.

The woman, like, the male child and the devil refers to two things. One is symbolic and the other Literal, literal because the male child who is to have eternal reign is Christ the king, and his mother was Mary, and the dragon refers to Satan. The symbolic meaning of woman is that of the Old Testament Church whose prophets and saints had endured much to prepare the way for the Messiahs. Although the woman of the apocalypse designates a definite person, the Blessed Virgin Mary, this person embodies in her self a collectivity. Just as the male child represents at the same time the historical Christ and the Mystical Christ (the Church) so the woman signifies, first the personal Mother of Christ, and then the people of God as realized in the Church. This double sense is easily understood of Mary, who is the Mother of both the individual Christ and of His mystical body (the Church). What I would maintain is this that "the Holy Apostle would not have spoken of the Church under this particular image, unless there had existed a Blessed Virgin Mary, who was exalted on high and the object of veneration to all the faithful. No one doubts that the "man-child" spoken of is an allusion to our Lord; why then is not "the Woman" an allusion to his mother?" (John Henry Cardinal Newman). While the devil symbolizing evil in general (as he seems to behind everything.), is nevertheless a real individual.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by colbe

The description in 12:1 is royal and we know via the Old Testament, the mother of the king is
queen.

My quote you pasted refers to the Queen.

Yes, I know it does, and I was arguing rationally and legitimately from that reference.
I was accepting the first part of your sentence and disputing the second. I was pointing out that it is the wife of the king, not the mother of the king, who is the queen. That is why your argument "This is about the queen, therefore it must be about the mother" is not valid.

To help, some more Scripture, proof, the mother not the wife is Queen.

You say this, but you don't actually offer any scriptural proof that "the mother is queen".
The normal usage of language is that the queen is the king's wife.
If you want to claim that the Old Testament goes against this normal use of language, then you must quote me an actual text that says so.

You then quote some Biblical references to the phrase "Queen Mother". I'm not sure why, because they're just giving Biblical support the to the same point I'm making; viz. that the mother of the King is called Queen Mother, not Queen.

Say what you said I said, it's not true. What a twisting effort you go to, to deny Mary is Queen of Heaven and Earth. Scripture proves your "the wife is queen" to be wrong DESRA. And your last makes no sense. The mother of the King is called Queen but she is not Queen? Don't put a modern meaning to Queen. Uh oh, you are going
outside your professed belief of Bible Alone. Fact, you will some day have to acknowledge, I hope soon, "Bible Alone" is heresy, it's not from God.

__ __ __ __ __
The Kingdom and Kingship of Christ is a continuation and fulfillment of the kingdom and kingship of David, we can look back to the kingdom first established by David to reveal truths about Jesus’ own Kingdom. In today’s common understanding of a kingdom, it is the wife of the king who is the queen. But, in the kingdom of Israel, it was the mother of the king who was considered to be the queen. The Hebrew title of “Gebirah” literally meaning “Great Lady” was given to the mother of the King of the nation of Israel. In the Scriptures, when a king is first discussed his mother is listed alongside him ( see 1Kg 14:21; 15:9-10; 22:42 and 2Kg 12:2; 14:2; 15:2; 15:33; 18:2; 21:2; 21:19; 22:1; 23:31; 23:36; 24:8; 24:18.)

The queen mother is shown to have considerable influence with the king. In 1 Kings when Adonijah wants to request that Solomon give him Abishag as his wife, he goes first to Bathsheba, Solomon’s mother, saying, he will not refuse you (1Kg 2:17.) When Bathsheba goes to meet Solomon it is he that bows to her and brings her a throne to sit beside him on his right (1 Kg 2:19,) which is the spot of privilege reserved for one that shares in the power of the king: it is thus that Jesus is said to sit on the right hand of the power of God (Mt 26:64; Mk 14:62; Lk 22:69.) Solomon tells his mother, Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you (1Kg 2:20.)

An icon of Mary as Queen

When God speaks to the prophet Jeremiah and tells him of the destruction that will befall the kingdom of Judah, He tells him to give a message to the king and the queen mother (Jer 13:18.) God places the burden of blame for the nation’s abandonment of Him on not only the king, but the queen mother as well. He charges that both have lost the beautiful flock that the Lord had given to them. Just as the Lord then admonishes both the king and queen because they could have saved Israel, it is through the participation of Mary that we are given the King that saves us from sin and death. The Queen Mother, Mary, has a special role in watching over Christ’s flock, the sheep who hear his voice and follow Him (Jn 10:27.)

When the Angel Gabriel comes to Mary he reiterates the promise given to David saying, the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33* and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever (Lk 1:32.) He gives her a royal greeting saying, Hail Mary, because she, as mother of this King, is queen. Likewise, when Mary goes to meet Elizabeth she is greeted by her cousin saying, why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy (Lk 1:43.) Both she and the infant John recognize that they are in the presence of a queen. They know too that where the queen is, the King is also present. Mary too knows of her role saying, henceforth all generations will call me blessed (1 Lk 1:48.)



_ _ _ _ _

"In today’s common understanding of a kingdom, it is the wife of the king who is the queen. But, in the kingdom of Israel, it was the mother of the king who was considered to be the queen."


The above is what I stated from the start, it is simple to understand. So...it is obvious...
The "royal" sounding "woman" in Revelation 12:1 is Mary, Our Lord's mother.

Originally posted by colbe
God did not give you or me the authority to interpret Holy Scripture.

"When the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth"- John ch16 v13
That means all of us. A Christian, by definition, has the Holy Spirit.

[

The Church who determined the Canon of Scripture was also given the authority by God to interpret the Bible. The same Church states the "woman" in Revelation 12:1 is Mary, Our Lord's mother.

This argument is not valid, because the meaning of the word "Church" changes between the two sentences.
In the first sentence, the word "Church" means the Christian community of the early centuries.
In your second sentence the word "Church" is narrowed down, implicitly, to mean the hierarchical authorities governiing the Roman Catholic community.
The Roman Catholic community is not "the Church". It is only one portion of the Church. I do not accept that your hierarchical authorities have the exclusive power to control the interpretation of scripture.

Falling back on the argument from ecclesiastical authority only highlights your failure to demonstrate your point in rational terms.

Originally posted by colbe
"In today’s common understanding of a kingdom, it is the wife of the king who is the queen. But, in the kingdom of Israel, it was the mother of the king who was considered to be the queen."

Please provide a source for this quotation. Otherwise there is no reason for me to accept it as an authority.

Originally posted by ntech
My thought on the subject. The end times are a time of harvest. Separating of the good from the bad. I would refer you to the wheat and the tares parable of Matthew 13.

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

I would pose the Harlot is the system created by the tares of the field. Those found to be unworthy. And the maiden is those found to be worthy. The wheat of the parable.
And that both women are descended from Israel.

Zechariah 13
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Revelation 18
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

[edit on 31-7-2010 by ntech]

I ran across this thread again and realized I had more to add to my reply. So here it is.

Zechariah: Chapter 5

1 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.
2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.
3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.
4 I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.
5 Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth.
6 And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth.
7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.
8 And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.
10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?
11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

I would pose that the harlot is this woman. Why? Because Shinar is another name for Babylon. Or a location in Babylon.

Shinar

And what was hauled to Shinar from Jerusalem around the time Zechariah was written. The Jews and the Israelites. The Assyrians conquered the northern kingdom of Israel in 721 BC approximately. And in 605 BC the Jews were conquered by the Babylonians. Who had conquered the Assyrians on their way to Jerusalem.

And the prophesy mentions a curse going out on the world. Why? Because the Jews and Israelites were cursed. Per Ezekiel 4 it was 390 years for the Israelites and 40 for the Jews. And a good sized number of the Jews and Israelites never went back to Israel after the curse was over. Rather they scattered to the world. Followed by even more Jews in 135 BC and the Diaspora.

And the problem there? Another curse. Which I go over here.

The curse of the Apocalypse

They have been spreading a curse upon the earth for 2000 years now.

Originally posted by colbe
What a twisting effort you go to, to deny Mary is Queen of Heaven and Earth.

My focus in this thread is the interpretation of Revelation ch12. If you've got some wider missionary purpose beyond that chapter, I'm not getting involved. This discussion is about what chapter 12 means.

Scripture proves your "the wife is queen" to be wrong DESRA. And your last makes no sense. The mother of the King is called Queen but she is not Queen?

The mother of the king is not called Queen; she is called "Queen Mother", which is a different expression.
The Queen is the wife of the King.
The Queen Mother is the wife of the previous king, now mother of the present monarch.
Scripture has not "proved this wrong"; I cite the example of Esther, described as Queen as the wife of the king.

But I rest mainly on the point already established. We agree that the woman at the end of ch12 represents God's faithful people, and the woman at the beginning of ch12 is the same woman as the one at the end of the chapter.

reply to post by ntech

Thank you for that contribution. I referred to that "woman going to Shinar" vision in my thread on Revelation ch18, "Babylon's Wake". I was particularly intrigued by the last verse in that chapter, which blames Babylon for all the blood shed on the earth- since the beginning of time, presumably. I thought that this vision shed some light on the topic.

A recent message, August 22nd from Our Lord. He speaks of His mother. And notice, Our Lord mentions Genesis
3:15. Mary is the "woman" in Genesis 3:15. King James and his translators took that verse apart, changing it for
obvious reasons. I share the English translation of the first Bible which is St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate. The English
translation is called the Douay-Rheims Bible. You can read it on the internet. The footnotes are a wonderful help
to understand why the Church teaches what she does. www.drbo.org...

Posting Genesis 3:15 after the message to Pelianito

______________

8/22/11
message to Pelianito

Judith 15:13 At the head of all the people, she led the women in the dance, while the men of Israel followed in their armor, wearing garlands and singing hymns.

“Beloved, just so shall it be when the Immaculate Heart triumphs over sin and evil. When she crushes the head of the serpent, all souls, all holy beings, will praise her with gratitude, giving thanks to God for his unfathomable love for mere creatures. When God lifts up the lowly, is there a limit to how high he will lift her? Be careful, man, not to put limits on God, for his love is completely out of the range of human comprehension. Rejoice my children! For the Queen of heaven and earth will triumph! Believe and rejoice!”


www.pelianito.stblogs.com...

Gen 3:15
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

[15] "She shall crush"... Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent's head.

Today, August 22, is the Feast Day of the Queenship of Mary.

Originally posted by colbe
the message to Pelianito

Well, this is not scripture,is it? I could make up messages to support my own case, but I won't.
Incidentally, Hebrew scripture needs to be understood by the sense of the Hebrew, not by the sense of the Latin translation.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by colbe
the message to Pelianito

Well, this is not scripture,is it? I could make up messages to support my own case, but I won't.
Incidentally, Hebrew scripture needs to be understood by the sense of the Hebrew, not by the sense of the Latin translation.

I shared the link to Pelianito's messages.

DISRA, the message doesn't fall under Martin Luther's heresy, Bible Alone. It is prophecy. There is much prophecy in Scripture, God speaks to every generation. 1 Thess 5:20 says despise not Prophecy. You don't believe what Our Lord said about His mother and to the faithful in the message given Pelianito. You are being so stubborn, denying the 'woman' is Mary. Jesus said in the brief message, His mother is the "woman" in Genesis 3:15 and that she is Queen of Heaven and earth.

St. Jerome understood the Hebrew and the Greek perfectly. Why God chose and guided him in translating the
original Hebrew and Greek into Latin. Are you saying St. Jerome mistranslated the first Bible? St. Jerome
translated into Latin because it was the common language of the time.

I can share Our Lord's recent words again...

] ] ] ] ]

message to Pelianito

August 16, 2011

Judith 15:13 At the head of all the people, she led the women in the dance, while the men of Israel followed in their armor, wearing garlands and singing hymns.

“Beloved, just so shall it be when the Immaculate Heart triumphs over sin and evil. When she crushes the head of the serpent, all souls, all holy beings, will praise her with gratitude, giving thanks to God for his unfathomable love for mere creatures. When God lifts up the lowly, is there a limit to how high he will lift her? Be careful, man, not to put limits on God, for his love is completely out of the range of human comprehension. Rejoice my children! For the Queen of heaven and earth will triumph! Believe and rejoice!”

Originally posted by colbe
I can share Our Lord's recent words again...

message to Pelianito

It still isn't scripture, is it?
We are instructed to test prophets according to their teachings;
"If a prophet shall arise among you...and if he says to you "Let us go after other gods and let us serve them"...you shall not listen to the words of that prophet". Deuteronomy ch13 vv1-3.
To me, the "Immaculate Heart" is another god not mentioned in scripture. I will not listen to a prophet who is inviting me to venerate other gods.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by colbe
I can share Our Lord's recent words again...

message to Pelianito

It still isn't scripture, is it?
We are instructed to test prophets according to their teachings;
"If a prophet shall arise among you...and if he says to you "Let us go after other gods and let us serve them"...you shall not listen to the words of that prophet". Deuteronomy ch13 vv1-3.
To me, the "Immaculate Heart" is another god not mentioned in scripture. I will not listen to a prophet who is inviting me to venerate other gods.

edit on 23-8-2011 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

How are you DISRAELI?

Calling someone pure is not calling them a God. Jesus was referring to His mother's heart in the message to
Pelianito. Mary's sinless pure heart is mentioned in Scripture. In the first Bible, not the many altered translations since St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate. God the Father's first words to Mary brought by the Archangel
Gabriel were "Hail, full of Grace." "Grace" is God's presence. Mary is full of God.

Mary is pure, no Original Sin on her soul. She is one of God's exceptions because of who she is... Mary is the New Eve. Remember, Eve was created "sinless" until the fall. Mary is the New Eve except she never fell like Eve, she said yes to God, always doing His Will.

I'll say it again, where is the disconnect? Everyone recognizes the "child" in Revelation 12 is Jesus. But say
no to the "woman" in Revelation being Mary. Pretty blocked.


God bless you,