Revelation; The Woman in Heaven

reply to post by autowrench

Thank you for that contribution.
I don't think the criticism in the Bible is just about goddess worship- it's more about any kind of worship towards anything less than the Creator God, whether male or female.

And you have to admit that this particular passage is a positive image of feminity.

But from a Biblical perspective, worship of "Earth" would have to be rejected, whether "Earth" was personified as male or female, because Earth is less than the Creator.

I've not had a chance to read your previous post on Revelation but I hope to soon. I like your interpretation except for a few minor things. I believe that the Woman is actually Israel and has nothing to do with the church. The reason I say this is that Israel is symbolically the Wife of God, where the church is the Bride (or betrothed) of Christ.

Unmarried young women were not actually considered women until they were married. Hence the term maiden, which may mean virgin but almost always means unmarried. In Jerimiah Israel is portrayed as the divorced wife of God. Just my 2coppers.

Originally posted by darkelf
I believe that the Woman is actually Israel and has nothing to do with the church.

Thank you for that contribution.
I think I'll have to ponder that question.
It's a little late at night (at this end) for me to be thinking through whether I should be changing my view on the point or sticking to my guns.

PS Having said that, a quick re-reading of the OP has reminded me of one of the reasons I was giving in the first place, that this woman and the Harlot are in counter-opposition as the faithful and the unfaithful people of God. Which makes less sense if the church is not included in the "faithful" version.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by DISRAELI

Originally posted by DISRAELI

PS Having said that, a quick re-reading of the OP has reminded me of one of the reasons I was giving in the first place, that this woman and the Harlot are in counter-opposition as the faithful and the unfaithful people of God. Which makes less sense if the church is not included in the "faithful" version.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by DISRAELI]

The woman gives birth to Christ. Christ brought forth the church. Chronologically the woman couldn't be both Israel and the church. Israel is the focus of the tribulation, when God reconciles with His wife. So the church is either in hiding from persecution or is no longer present. Have you conducted a study of the letters to the seven churches?

Originally posted by darkelf
So the church is either in hiding from persecution or is no longer present. Have you conducted a study of the letters to the seven churches?

You'll find two threads in my profile about "Warnings to the seven churches". But I haven't been following the theory that they represent different ages of the church, if that's what you've got in mind. The focus is on the church of John's contemporaries and what their situation says to the later church.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

I can't help wondering how your "creator mother-female" interpretation is able to cope with the "great Harlot" figure of ch17.
That seems to be representing an evil side in femininity.

well, that indeed is the desired intention of the whole scheme of when the Israelites were given Torah and became a Patriarchial body of thinking.

the radiant 'Mother' & the counterpart called the 'Harlot' are the necessary figures built up by the Patriarch (male centered) religious thought...
and fits well in that eschatology...


the 'Mother'-Creator and 'Harlot'-destroyer are the springboard from which the Torah & Bible launched themselves with their Savior & Satan drama.
and to turn your statement around on itself:

"That seems to be representing an evil side in femininity"

...

I reply the whole Biblical>Revelation account of a redeemer\destroyer>antichrist:

~That seems to be representing an Evil side in masculinity~

[edit on 31-7-2010 by St Udio]

Originally posted by St Udio
and to turn your statement around on itself:

"That seems to be representing an evil side in femininity"

...

I reply the whole Biblical>Revelation account of a redeemer\destroyer>antichrist:

~That seems to be representing an Evil side in masculinity~

No, I don't have a problem with that. I'm quite content to understand both genders as being on each side of the good/evil boundary.
I see the battle-line as "Creator vs not-Creator", rather than "male vs female".

What we have there is a Divine quaternity as two pairs of opposites. Christ, Anti-Christ, Woman, Harlot.

"We find a wide spectrum of four-fold symbols and systems in religion, myth, history and culture. There are four winds (Boreas, Eurus, Notus, Zephyrus), four seasons (winter, spring, summer, fall), four directions (north, east, south, west), four Evangelists (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John), four letters in the sacred name of God (YHVH), four ancient ages (gold, silver, bronze, iron), and four medieval humours: sanguine (blood), choleric (yellow bile), phlegmatic (phlegm), melancholic (black bile) to name a few.

Adding a fourth to an already established three has a transformational effect. In geometry, a fourth point transforms the two-dimensional triad or triangle into a figure with depth, the cube and the tetrahedron (a form lapis). As the mathematician Michael Schneider observes, “There are always four ways (another quaternity) to look at any three-dimensional structure: as points, lines, areas, and volumes, or as corners, edges, faces, and from the center outward (63). Ellenberger notes that “The quaternity can appear as a geometric figure of square or sometimes rectangular shape, or it will have some relation wit the number four: four persons, four trees, and so on. Often it is a matter of completing a triadic figure with a fourth term, thus making it into a quaternity” (712). Jung searches for the quaternity when a trinity is encountered, “Jung over and over again in his writings returns to the alchemical question: “Three are here but where is the fourth?” (Edinger 189). The completion of the quaternity is seen frequently in alchemical works, even whimsically, “All things do live in the three/ But in the four they merry be” (quoted in CW 12 125)."

www.redicecreations.com...

"One becomes two, two becomes three, and out of the third comes the one as the fourth." -Axiom of Maria

[edit on 31-7-2010 by Student X]

reply to post by Student X

Thank you for that contribution.
Somebody brought up the quaternity when I was doing the threads on the Four Horsemen, but I think his approach was more cabbalistic. He related it to the Tetragrammaton.

reply to post by DISRAELI


My pleasure.

I think that Divinity has male and female aspects, good and evil aspects. The Woman and the Harlot both represent the polarities of the Sacred Feminine, and the Christ and the Anti-Christ represent the polarities of the Sacred Masculine.

The union of Sacred Feminine and Sacred Masculine (Heiros Gamos) produces the water of life that flows from the Holy Grail, which is the union of matter and spirit. Matter and spirit are both aspects of Divinity, just as yin and yang are complementary opposites within a greater whole, the Tao. Another appropriate metaphor is the alchemical lapis.

Now that is not to say that we should all start worshiping the Harlot and the Anti-Christ. But they are aspects of Divinity, and we must not repress them either. When people repress things they don't just go away. They resurface elsewhere in wrath.

We must stand at the center of the quaternity, the center of the cosmic mandala...because we all have male and female aspects and good and evil aspects inside of us. The man who represses his inner femininity is not a balanced man. If such a man is not careful, he could end up homophobic. The man who represses his inner evil also has to be careful not to end up as a self-righteous judgmental jerk, projecting his shadow-self onto others.


[edit on 31-7-2010 by Student X]

My thought on the subject. The end times are a time of harvest. Separating of the good from the bad. I would refer you to the wheat and the tares parable of Matthew 13.

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

I would pose the Harlot is the system created by the tares of the field. Those found to be unworthy. And the maiden is those found to be worthy. The wheat of the parable.
And that both women are descended from Israel.

Zechariah 13
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Revelation 18
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

[edit on 31-7-2010 by ntech]

Originally posted by ntech
My thought on the subject. The end times are a time of harvest. Separating of the good from the bad. I would refer you to the wheat and the tares parable of Matthew 13.

I would pose the Harlot is the system created by the tares of the field. Those found to be unworthy. And the maiden is those found to be worthy. The wheat of the parable.
And that both women are descended from Israel.

This is a very thought-provoking contribution. At first glance, I think it's got a lot going for it.
It would fit in with a number of theories about how events actually work out, because you're focussing on the spiritual significance of the end-result.
I like it. Thank you very much.

reply to post by DISRAELI

Originally posted by DISRAELI
You'll find two threads in my profile about "Warnings to the seven churches". But I haven't been following the theory that they represent different ages of the church, if that's what you've got in mind. The focus is on the church of John's contemporaries and what their situation says to the later church.

There are actually three ways that the letters to the church can be interpreted: 1. To the church of that time. 2. To the different church ages. 3. to the church type in present day. I belieeve that all three can be valid. But my question referred to how some churches were told that they would have to endure, while others were promised to be protected. The protected church can be in the view point of pre-milenienist be raptured out, or just simply protected from the tribulation. While others would most likely be in hiding as was true in the fist two centuries of the church. The book of Revelation is overflowing in Old Testament symbology. While we disagree on some minor points, I think you are doing a great job of explaing the prophecy.

reply to post by ntech


Or maybe it is also a time of a wedding banquet for the Sacred Marriage. The heavenly Bride and Groom are getting ready.

"Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: ‘The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. [...] So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests."

It is a time of unity and so it requires humanity to quit arguing and to transcend pairs of opposites.

"...It’s such an unnecessary foolishness, because just
beyond the arguing there’s a long

table of companionship, set and waiting for us to sit down." -Rumi

[edit on 31-7-2010 by Student X]

Originally posted by darkelf
The book of Revelation is overflowing in Old Testament symbology. While we disagree on some minor points, I think you are doing a great job of explaing the prophecy.

Yes, indeed, I make heavy use of the OT references wherever I find them, because I'm sure that's how the early church would have got their understanding of the book.
Thanks for the encouragement.

Sekhmet protected the pharaoh in battle, ...
In fact, she took on the bright glare of the midday sun,
hence her title: the Lady of Flame


John is bringing in the mythic protector of the good
destroyer of the bad-&-wicked...
a woman 'clothed in the Sun'....

this secret wisdom is introduced not for the enlightenment of the masses but as 'code' to the Initiated...

Sekhmet is composed of the element fire or plazma (clothed in the Sun)
notice that the dragon spews out a 'flood' attempting to sweep away the woman with child ...this is the element water.

but the land itself swallows the flood, the rescue continues as the woman & child are caught up in the air by an Eagle

so the 4 elements, Earth, Water, Air, Fire are in a extreme state of affairs
i.e. the 4 states of matter (solid-liquid-gas-plazma) are in turmoil
the 5th element spirit/thought/ether is in metamophisis, at the end-of-Age
represented by the Eagle

this whole chapter is a Readers Digest account of the changing of the Age, the 'pole shift' analogy, the 'hidden wisdom' is that Myth & Goddess'
are as important to the 26,000 climax as the 'Beast empire' getting overthrown by the good guys from Heaven.
actually, the Christian millenial kingdom is of little importance in this Capsule other than the man-child ruling with a rod-of-iron
as the catastrophe clears & humanity returns to re-create a new garden of Eden socio-political community, a return to spiritual values instead of technology & toxic living




[edit on 30-8-2010 by St Udio]

reply to post by St Udio

Did you ever tackle these two threads?-

Wings of an eagle

Satan fell from heaven

In the first one, I was tracing back all the references in the "flight" sequence to Exodus.

The second one is more important. That's the thread in which I referred to the battle in heaven as a "dramatised version of the doctrine of the Atonement". And so it is. How was Satan defeated? According to the angelic voice, he was overcome "by the blood of the Lamb". By the Atonement.

As I pointed out on that thread, the Atonement is the driving force of that chapter, and even the driving force of the entire book. Satan's hostility to the Church is supposedly motivated by his resentment of the Atonement ("come down in great wrath"). But the Atonement also supplies the power behind God's response. That is why, in ch5, it is the slain (and risen) Lamb who is the only one who can open the scroll. This is the key to understanding the book. Ifyou reject the Christian aspect as irrelevant, you're never going to understand it- you're just going to be stumbling around in the dark.



[edit on 30-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

Originally posted by DISRAELI
If the child is Jesus, then the mother must be Mary

If I may briefly interject not to move off topic: It may seem strange to consider but Mary was not the biological mother of Jesus she was merely the virgin carrier of Christ by a Divine conception. Christ, who is the Son of God, looked identical in appearance to the One who appeared to all those in the Old Testament. When Adam opened his eyes he saw exactly the same face as the face of Jesus. He did not have any features of Mary, His features were the original features of the Eternal God. This was the same who appeared to Abraham at Mamre, who wrestled with Jacob, who revealed Himself to Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the seventy elders.

Originally posted by soleprobe
It may seem strange to consider but Mary was not the biological mother of Jesus she was merely the virgin carrier of Christ by a Divine conception.

That is not the usual understanding. The word "conception" means fertilisation of an ovum, and that's how the process has normally been interpreted. We have no reason to suppose it was anything different- at least early theologians would not have imagined anything different.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
That is not the usual understanding. The word "conception" means fertilisation of an ovum,

Oh yes... it's not the usual understanding and that's why I put "Divine" in front of the word "conception'. The fact that Mary was a virgin is proof that it wasn't the type of "conception" you are referring to.