Welcome to Freedom, Iraqis!

Oh, unless freedom actually entails being able to tell the foreign Army occupying you to get out of your country.

So here we have the new Iraqi "government" who has no say on US military actions within their country.

www.boston.com...:.shtml

UNITED NATIONS (AP) The United States and Britain submitted a new draft Monday of their U.N. resolution on Iraq, promising ''close coordination'' between multinational forces and the interim Iraqi government but not an Iraqi veto over major military actions as France and others want....

Despite the dispute over major military operations, the issue of how long the multinational force will remain appears to have been resolved.

The resolution says the interim government will have authority to ask the force to leave, but Allawi indicated in a letter to Powell that the force will remain at least until an elected transitional government takes power early next year.

I'm sure it's because those silly Arabs are just utterly incapable of providing their own security, huh? They're just totally useless when it comes to trying to avoid getting blown up by bombs designed to kill US troops.

Say goodbye to UN approval of this if they persist in taking this hard line.

Actually it looks like it will go through. Bush is on fox news right now with the PM from Japan and he said the resolution is coming. Apparently at 4:30 est today.

Maybe this resolution will help. We are there now, we have to finish what we started. Even if it means with help from other nations.

Don't listen to Jakomo, he is writting his daily "I hate America, all American administrations and all Americans in general" garbage. It seems he does not feel good or wanted, unless he bashes the US everyday.

actually i was watching the news last night and they were talking about how the iraqi prime minister mainaged to get thousands of malitiamen to put down their arms and offered them the chance to walk away and become citizens or join the army. and guess what? all those that went in for talks agreed to lay down their arms! THOUSANDS of them. those who didnt show up are now outlawed by IRAQI law. they've (meaning the iraqi government has managed to stop the fighting in two hot spots...they've learned if they get rid of the americans the fighting stops and american troops have left certain areas of the country.

i suspect it will still be awhile before they all leave but it does appear as though the iraqi government are doing what the us military wasnt able to do, stop the fighting. and they are making progress.

sorry i'm just not going to buy into this "nothing good ever happens in iraq" bull# some of you are spewing.

Muaddib:

Don't listen to Jakomo, he is writting his daily "I hate America, all American administrations and all Americans in general" garbage. It seems he does not feel good or wanted, unless he bashes the US everyday.

Yes, far far easier for you to blast me for "hateful America" talk than to actually come up with a VALID opinion. I've come to expect no less from you.

If you could please scroll up and tell me specifically which phrase seems to communicate to you that I hate America, I would appreciate it. But, hehe, again, according to what I have come to expect from you, you'll do no such thing because you probably realise by now that I did no such thing.

Let me boil it down to its' essence, Muaddib.

An Iraq where the U.S. controls foreign policy, has an embassy with over 2,000 staff, and keeps more than 100,000 troops in the country, is really very reminiscent of the former Soviet Union's relations with Eastern bloc states.

Why don't you argue that with me, instead of crying that I hate America, Comrade? If you don't respond I'll just assume you know I'm right and are embarassed at your own ignorance.

Thanks!

jakomo






[edit on 8-6-2004 by Jakomo]

The ultimate plan is to have Iraq take care of itself however, if we just up and leave on June 30 then I guarantee you that the country will fall into Anarchy within a year. When that happens you know what else will happen more than likely a warlord will take over the country and back to dictatorship you go. We have to nurse this new democracy through its first couple of years before we release it to be on its own. I just don't understand how you can't comprehend that.

Jackal:

We have to nurse this new democracy through its first couple of years before we release it to be on its own. I just don't understand how you can't comprehend that.

I guess I'm a little confused as to how 100,000 American troops on the ground in Iraq, with the Iraqi government with no control over what they do, is "nursing democracy".

Shouldn't you just get out of their country and let them handle it with the help of their neighbors?

Is the concept of democracy so dangerous that it has to be protected by 100,000 armed men?

If a "democratic" nation's people demand that a foreign army leave it's land, and they have no actual SAY in that, how exactly is that democratic? THAT'S what confuses me.


What do these 100,000 troops protect exactly? "Democracy"? How is that done?

Explain that one to me and I'll be happy.

I think that it is a good idea that the United States will have a good relation with the new Iraq Government, with respect with its security and military forces. Hopefully more good comes out of this with respect to there being no more major conflicts in the Iraq region.

What do these 100,000 troops protect exactly? "Democracy"? How is that done?

Don't be so silly, lets say we did pull out ALL the troops tomorrow and said "Have fun on your own" and then lets watch has some small time mad man goes and takes over whist the new government is still setting up its own security etc

gee because thats a good idea

... not

Give them time to get themselves set up and in control then we leave and let them run it themselves.
The reason they don't have a say in the US leaving is because the US knows that's exactly what will happen if they are asked to leave which would cause even more mess in the long run.

"Democracy" in a country who has people of the Islamic faith is laughable.

But you'll always have the right-wing patriots who always think the USA is doing everything right.

A way must be made to modernize those areas without westernizing them.

Honestly, I hope it works out. Peace and quiet would be a very good thing for Iraq to have these days.

It will also be nice for an action in Iraq to have the UN's blessing for a change, lol.

I personally was against the war, and I still think it was a bad idea, but proving even an idiot theocratic tyrant can be right for once, I do agree with one of Bush's statements, America cannot just leave. Maybe a shred of good can come of all this in the end, I prefer to stay optimistic.

May The World Find Peace
~Astral

No, Jackomo, as a matter of fact, they are not capable of providing their own security at this time.
As far as the freedom of telling us to get out, they should have, as a nation, rid the world of Hussein so that we would not have had to do it for our own security.
As far as "Freedom" in Iraq, don't congratulate them just yet. It was us who paid the price for their freedom, not them. Anything that comes cheaply isn't respected or valued, and it was very cheap for them. I'd be willing to bet they will not have this freedom 5 years from now.

If we really take all of our forces out the extremists will start holding the Iraqi people captive (Those who aren't already with them and their beliefs) and many political leaders who had been put in place will be killed. Either way, we will have a mess if we're in or out. They will have a mess if we're in or out. Might as well finish what we started.

I agree with Black Jackal, back to dictatorship if our troops leave. There people who are looking for a true political system of their own will not be able to play any part in their own government if we leave now.

Also, CheeseGodUK explains why we need some troops to help "nurse" democracy. Especially for it to go the way we want it, I'd imagine it would help the people towards their ultimate political goal as well.

Man, another great point by Crown. He is very right about the people of Iraq not fully appreciating what has been given to them. Could this be because we did the fighting? I'm sure civilian death doesn't help but it's not only us who is causing those. It's a small price to pay if you still receive freedom in the end without sending your own children off to battle. If they would have done so sooner then they wouldn't be facing any of these problems.

[edit on 8-6-2004 by Mandalorianwarrior]

The most ignored fact is that Iraq is better off then it was. Yes, I agree, the situation is messy, but it is getting better. People are against the American regime because they are scared of the Baath coming back and killing everyone who was against them. Now, with more countries help, it will only progress for the better.

Let us just hope that Kerry does not get re-elected, because if he withdraws, then everything would be a waste. ahem ahem (vietnam)


peace out

Originally posted by Jakomo

If you could please scroll up and tell me specifically which phrase seems to communicate to you that I hate America, I would appreciate it. But, hehe, again, according to what I have come to expect from you, you'll do no such thing because you probably realise by now that I did no such thing.

Why don't you argue that with me, instead of crying that I hate America, Comrade? If you don't respond I'll just assume you know I'm right and are embarassed at your own ignorance.

Thanks!

jakomo

Quite simple, every thread I have read from you shows contempt and hatred towards the US in general, and do not tell me its not true. I can't think of one thread from you that is not an attempt to bash the US in some way. There are other countries that are doing worse, yet you still find new ways to show your own ignorance of the events happening in Iraq, or the rest of the world for that matter, and blaming the US for them.

[edit on 8-6-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Jakomo
What do these 100,000 troops protect exactly? "Democracy"? How is that done?

Explain that one to me and I'll be happy.

Ok lets look at a poll about this shall we.

39% of all citizens say their country is heading in the wrong direction
61% say that unemployment is a major problem
43% say that crime is a major issue
24% name disease as a major issue
20% say that housing is a major issue.
57% say that the government is doing a poor of fair overall job
73% say the government is doing toolittle to create jobs
44% say that when democracy doesn�t work, we need a strong leader who doesn�t have to bother with elections,
81% say that crime is a serious threat to democracy
There is also agreement that certain things have gotten worse since the installment of democracy including crime
12% of the population would like to go back to the way it was before.


I can go on and on but I will not do that I will let you read it for yourself. Just click here

www.kff.org.../commonspot/security/getfile.cfm&PageID=33755

This is the reason we need our troops there because democracy isn�t all fun and games it takes time to get used too and a lot of time at that . The Iraqis need us to allow them the time to adjust to democracy.

BTW THE ABOVE POLL DOES NOT REFER TO IRAQ RATHER TO SOUTH AFRICA A COUNTRY THAT HAS BEEN A DEMOCRACY FOR TEN YEARS AND WENT THROUGH A PEACEFUL TRANSACTION TO DEMOCRACY


[edit on 8-6-2004 by BlackJackal]

Let them use their own blood now to color the stripes of there flag. Why do we have to let our guys blood color their flag as it does our own. If they want freedom let them fight for it at this point. Bring our guys home to their families. Why does Bush think its ok for our guys to give there lives in defence of Iraqi freedom? I dont see that anywere in our constitution....
We have more than enough fire power to protect the United States from anything currently in Iraq. ANYTHING. There is nothing in Iraq that is endangering these United States or our own constitution.

We got Saddam now lets get outa there please...Im not one of those americans that feel that America is the world savior or freedom police. Obviously.... Bring em all home from Korea to. We can just launch bombs and missles if N. Korea gets out hand. Bring our men and women home please.

X

How about giving them a republic instead, shouldn't it be sovereignty in the people first, then the state....
I think this is just legal jumbo, so there can be no blame on us if somethin goes wrong there Again. But thats just my opinion.

Originally posted by Xeven
We got Saddam now lets get outa there please...Im not one of those americans that feel that America is the world savior or freedom police. Obviously.... Bring em all home from Korea to. We can just launch bombs and missles if N. Korea gets out hand. Bring our men and women home please.

X

Yeah, we went over there busted up Saddaams government and now we just need to up and leave. Yeah, Right. This is the most naive statement that can be heard in America today.

If we just up and leave a new tyrant will come to power likely more ruthless than Saddam ever dared to be and this new leader would not be a friendly force in the middle east now would he?

Yeah lets just up and leave, thats the smart thing to do.

Originally posted by BlackJackal

Yeah, we went over there busted up Saddaams government and now we just need to up and leave. Yeah, Right. This is the most naive statement that can be heard in America today.

If we just up and leave a new tyrant will come to power likely more ruthless than Saddam ever dared to be and this new leader would not be a friendly force in the middle east now would he?

Yeah lets just up and leave, thats the smart thing to do.

The purpose of the U.S Military is to defend our nation and there is no threat now. Those giving their lives to save political face is rediculas. Giving their lives. HELLO your neighbors children are dieing over there..

When are you going over there? I've been 4 times now since 91 and will be back in a few months. Also been to OEF twice. Have you been there or going soon? ( I bet not) I love the way you all sit back safe at your homes and dole out the lives of our men and women to do something other than what they signed up for (suport and defend the constitution of the United States). Join up then talk. It would take 10 years or more for another tyrant to remotely become dangerous to the United States (It is US military remember) not the world freedom police. And that tyrant can be bombed lased or whatever just like this one could have been.

Either way, I'll be there once again giving my all to my country shortly. I dont agree with it, but I do it because I love my country, and must follow the constitution, that tells me I have to do what the president tells me to do, weather I agree that we should be there or not. Get on the front lines with me then, then tell me what is naive. You wont.



[edit on 8-6-2004 by Xeven]