17 States Now Filing Versions of Arizona bill

Originally posted by FiatLux
It is only a "potential for abuse", until that abuse trully occures and then becomes a reality, correct? So then, you are no more than jumping to a conclusion in all of this.

No, I'm expressing concern regarding the potential for abuse and stating an opinion about that potential. I'm not asserting facts.

Sure, as opinions go. But why jump the gun and make statements based on what you think may happen, when it is not based on fact?

Because that's what opinions are. Opinions are feelings, perceptions, or points of view which lack sufficient proof to constitute facts. I have never asserted my opinion as a fact. As a skeptic, I would never do so. I have always used the qualifier, "in my opinion." And in my personal opinion this legislation creates the potential for abuse and racial (and other) profiling. In my opinion, the legislation should be more concise and specific in defining what constitutes reasonable suspicion. You have demonstrated your disagreement with this opinion, which is fine. I respect your opinion. We are going to have to agree to disagree, as I stated several posts ago.

This is why, overall, people need to watch what they say. Because what they say has the potential to come back to them, and explode in their face, all because they made the wrong interpretation of what was written.

I would argue that this is why legislation that some feel has the potential to be abused should require greater specificity and conciseness in its language.

Again, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I respect your opinion.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by FiatLux

 

Really, like we didn`t already know you supported it by your statements? So, in your mind, instead of getting the leaches off of the system that are legal citizens at this time, you don`t mind the illegals adding to the problem? Believe me, a person doesn`t have to be a mind reader to figure you out, you give yourself away by the statements you make.

You are speaking in circles.

First you say I made a statement that the US can support 1 billion more people...and ask me to prove it.

Now you are saying you "got me" by thinking you got me to admit I support any immigrant coming here to look for a better life...but I have never made that a secret....it's funny.

One thing I won`t do, is set back and let the likes of you call me a liar. READ IT FOR THE LAST TIME.........."I support anyone who wants to come here and work for a better life. If that is 1 billion...then yes I support it.". Now, what part of that don`t you understand? Have you had this comprehension problem all your life, or only whenever you want to have it?

LOL...you have never posted a quote of me saying that "The US can support 1 billion more people". You haven't posted it even one time because I never said it...but good job dodging it. Not man enough to admit you are wrong?

And what am I hangin myself about...you stopped making sense a long time ago.

Your right, I didn`t post that, those aren`t the same words you used. Are you having a reading comprehension problem again? Again, read it slowly, take your time, and sound it out, you have plenty of time. "If that is 1 billion...then yes I support it". Does this last quote say that you would support 1 billion? My, but....yes it does. LOL, and YOU say i`m dodging it? Yea, it is funny, because i`m not the only one who has caught you doing this.

Great detective work...the only problem is that I have always shown my "true colors" on this issue without ever hiding the fact that I support..but if you believe you have uncovered some great secret I have been trying to hide...more power to you.

Yep, and just like it`s no secret that beings you support the illegals being here, you support their screwing of the law and the system. It doesn`t take a detective to figure you out.

Growing tired of trying to misquote me? Yeah...it does get tiring being called on your lies...doesn't it?

Sorry, I didn`t misquote you once. It`s all right here for you and the world to see. Good try though. You can keep the arguing up all you like, and I can keep posting that quote each time your comprehension problem kicks in.

Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

 

Well it is oversimplified but so is "Boats full. We're gonna sink if you come aboard".

I believe that whatever policy best suits the needs of the US is what should be adopted but I think that those pesky PTB keep manipulating to push their agenda.

Part of that could be making the citizens of the US believe that they are in a worst situation than they really are. Then just before everything falls apart they show up with the solution.

And if we haven't seen the situation first hand, I just might believe the government is over exaggerating the situation. And I'm sure the government is manipulating the situation for political gain just like every other administration but that doesn't mean there actually is a problem.
When WE THE PEOPLE can actually see the problem with our own eyes, we're more likely to want to change things as this is the case here.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

LOL...you have never posted a quote of me saying that "The US can support 1 billion more people". You haven't posted it even one time because I never said it...but good job dodging it. Not man enough to admit you are wrong?

And what am I hangin myself about...you stopped making sense a long time ago.

No one had to fabricate anything to get you to show your true colors, you answered the question I asked, and that`s all it took. Read your mind? Yeaaa, riiiight, what ever.

Great detective work...the only problem is that I have always shown my "true colors" on this issue without ever hiding the fact that I support..but if you believe you have uncovered some great secret I have been trying to hide...more power to you.

As for me, i`m growing tired of your BS, and your not worth getting in trouble over.

Growing tired of trying to misquote me? Yeah...it does get tiring being called on your lies...doesn't it?

Oh for god's sake give it up. You're making yourself look foolish.

We're talking about the AZ bill not about you refusing to admit your mistakes.

So let me ask you this: What do you think of the AZ bill ?

Again, my personal feeling is that although I'm not crazy about additional legislation, I feel since the federal government has refused to act on the issue, AZ did what it felt necessary to do to protect it's people and borders.
My own state of Michigan is considering passing similar legislation and I truly hope they do as illegals are a problem in Michigan too. And for the record, I'm referring to ANY illegal so please don't call me a racist.
I've encountered the following illegals in my work:
Polish
Czech
mexican

Not happy about any of them being here EQUALLY as it hurts American citizens.

Now a few more questions for you:
1. Are you an American citizen by law?
2. Do you pay taxes (ss, state, federal, etc..) ?


[edit on 25-5-2010 by jfj123]

again, I must ask....

People keep making nazi references regarding the US immigration policies.

Don't you think every country has the right to protect it's borders?

Do you understand that every other country in the world protects it borders and many are much more strict then the US? for example, Australia, north Korea, mexico, iran, etc...

So why pick the US out of the pool of every other country in the world? Is it just because there is a deep seated resentment against the US which has nothing to do with this issue ?

The people of the United States are a very generous people but that seems to get lost in the shuffle as we are always accused of being selfish. Every time there is a need for money to help other countries who are going through a horrible situation, we are there....so why all the hatred for us?

Originally posted by stealthyone

Originally posted by Night Star
Wow! You just made my day!!!! Rhode Island is in there! Whoo Hoo!

So happy! Maybe I can find a job soon.

Agreed, I believe that RI has over 40,000 illegals. Now I'm not sure if they are known or a best guesstimate, but I would rather see 40,000 US Citizens working instead of the illegals.

Being in RI myself, I almost fell out of my seat when I read it!

With pages adding so quickly, I almost missed your post. Yes I read about the 40 thousand illegals somewhere. And we are the smallest state of all.
Though my heart goes out to anyone who is suffering for any reason, there are only so many jobs and too many people who need them.

reply to post by technical difficulties

Im not opposed to a law that protects our citizens from those who are in our country illegally.It seems to me that since we were inadiquit at protecting our borders." well we couldnt stop em from gettin in, so lets just pull over all the brown people then weed em out"this will not solve the problem, it IMO allows for bs border aptrolling and a sort of fail safe,that will only lend itself to racism.NO WHITE AMERICAN WILL BE EFFECTED I dont know how to fix the situation,but its not done by discriminating anyone who,,,,,,, "look" illegal?????

reply to post by FiatLux

One thing I won`t do, is set back and let the likes of you call me a liar. READ IT FOR THE LAST TIME.........."I support anyone who wants to come here and work for a better life. If that is 1 billion...then yes I support it.". Now, what part of that don`t you understand? Have you had this comprehension problem all your life, or only whenever you want to have it?

Looks like you need to refresh your memory.

I never disputed that I made THAT claim...but you were saying that I claimed that the US can support 1 billion more people.

You said it HERE

You are asking me to PROVE a claim I never made...and this has been the discusion we have been having since. You just won't admit that you are wrong and that I in fact never made that statement.

So instead you are now trying to say that I am denying I said I would support 1 billion people coming here if they wanted to come here to look for a better life...but I never denied that. I do support that...so like I said...you are talking in circles.

Your right, I didn`t post that, those aren`t the same words you used. Are you having a reading comprehension problem again? Again, read it slowly, take your time, and sound it out, you have plenty of time. "If that is 1 billion...then yes I support it". Does this last quote say that you would support 1 billion? My, but....yes it does. LOL, and YOU say i`m dodging it? Yea, it is funny, because i`m not the only one who has caught you doing this.

Yep...I said that...never denied saying that. What I denied saying is that the US can support 1 billion more people...which you and your friend have been asking me to PROVE...when I never said it.

You both are just all bent out of shape because I asked him to prove a statement he made...and he struggled for multiple pages until someone else came to his rescue to provide a source. I knew the statment was true...I had already confirmed it...but I also knew he didn't...he was just repeating something he heard without verifying it.

And you in fact did say I made that statement....HERE

Simple yes/no question...did I ever SAY that the US can support 1 billion more people??? If I did...show me the quote of where I made that claim.

Yes, I believe you did.

Yep, and just like it`s no secret that beings you support the illegals being here, you support their screwing of the law and the system. It doesn`t take a detective to figure you out.

I support humans striving for a better life...yes that makes me so evil.

Do you support all laws just for the sake of them being laws...even if you morally believe them to be unjust? Maybe you would of fit in nicely in Nazi Germany...hey...it was the law...right?

Sorry, I didn`t misquote you once. It`s all right here for you and the world to see. Good try though. You can keep the arguing up all you like, and I can keep posting that quote each time your comprehension problem kicks in.

You can see above where you plainly said that YES you are saying I made a statement I never did.

And it is all right here for everyone to see...that is why I am refreshing your memory by linking your own posts.

I never once denied saying I support anyone who wants to come here...go find where I did if you are convinced that I am trying to deny I ever said that.

I'll say it again if you like...I support anyone who wants to come here...be it 100 or 1 billion...if you are looking for a better life for you and your family and think this is where you can find it...welcome.

So now you can't say I'm trying to deny saying that...you also can't say that I need to prove a statement I never made...so what do you have left??? What other lie will you make up to try to make it look like I'm saying something I'm not???

reply to post by jfj123


Listen 123,

i really feel like your hearts in the right place.you seem to be a truly patriotic citizen,,,as am i. i just feel like its misdirected anger. thats why i brought up NAFTA. there are substantial jobs leaving our country because our govt allows this.
do people come here illegally?,,,,absolutely, but are they only "of color"?,,,,no. however this new law as well as the drafts being abopted allows for racial discrimination. i feel as though this is simply just one of many ploys aimed at people of color,,,preported by UnAmericans. i,,, IMO believe that there is a "racial" sort of divide taking place. terrorism(people of color),healthcare reform(IMO the uproar was regarding helping the downtrodden,,,which in this country is OVERWHELMINGLY colored" and now immigration(people of color)
so how am i or any other poster making this a racist issue,,,,will any white americans be effected?
so my concern is that you have been manipulated by TPTB to help fuel the divide. like the muslim temple going up on WTC land,,,,givin what is generally accepted about the perpertraitors,,,,this is that fuel,,,dont give in 123,,,,,CHAMPION A REAL CAUSE!

reply to post by jfj123

Oh for god's sake give it up. You're making yourself look foolish.

We're talking about the AZ bill not about you refusing to admit your mistakes.

Exactly which mistake?

You didn't think I was going to let you tell me I made a mistake without asking you to show me the mistake...did you?

The two of you have been trying to say I said something I didn't...so where was my mistake???

So let me ask you this: What do you think of the AZ bill ?

Again, my personal feeling is that although I'm not crazy about additional legislation, I feel since the federal government has refused to act on the issue, AZ did what it felt necessary to do to protect it's people and borders.

What exactly is AZ doing to protect it's people and borders?

The law has no authority behind it...all it does is give local LEO a license to harrass.

This law will undoubtably require American citizens to "show their papers"...and if they can't they will be detained. Maybe you aren't concerned about that because maybe you are not hispanic and you know you will never be asked. But many hispanic Americans I'm sure are now a little apprehensive to be in Arizona. So you are telling me you support American citizens asking to prove they are citizens (something that has NEVER been required in America) and you support them possibly being detained if a local cop decides that they haven't proved their citizenship???

Plus...ICE has already said, like I said they would at the start of this, that they won't process anyone that is handed over to them from Arizona LEO. And who can blame them...they are already overloaded with the work they have...now you want them to deal with every local cop bringing 100's of additional people to process...probably a good portion who are actual citizens or legal immigrants??? I don't blame him...I would want nothing to do with the lawsuits that are going to bankrupt Arizona due to this law.

My own state of Michigan is considering passing similar legislation and I truly hope they do as illegals are a problem in Michigan too.

Michigan has problems...illegals are not one of them.

For a state like Michigan to do this is laughable...I can almost guarantee no state is going to even talk about this seriously until they see what happens in Arizona. All these states that people say are "considering" or "proposin" a similiar law are sensationlizing it. Because all it takes is for ONE state congressman to PROPOSE legislation...doesn't mean it has any chance at all to ever be passed.

Politicians are pandering for votes...and you guys are eating it up.

Now a few more questions for you:
1. Are you an American citizen by law?
2. Do you pay taxes (ss, state, federal, etc..) ?

Not sure how these are relevant. But I'll entertain you.

1. Yep...born and raised.
2. Yep...probably more than most people.

While serving in the US Army, when I was sent to Germany, I was required to learn basic German. When I went to Desert Storm, I was taught basic Arabic. I expect the same from other nationalities when they come to my country (the USA). I have no problems with others coming to the US , just do it the LEAGAL way, please! I served and fought for my beliefs in America and Americans...not for illegals. Thanks for letting a vet vent!

reply to post by jfj123

again, I must ask....

People keep making nazi references regarding the US immigration policies.

Don't you think every country has the right to protect it's borders?

Not at the expense of profiling a section of society.

Not at the expense of sacraficing some rights of citizens just to carry out a witch hunt for illegals.

Let's take a look at you sig:

Those who would relinquish liberty to gain security, deserve neither and will soon lose both

Can you see how this applies to your thinking about immigration? Sacrafice some rights just to try to hunt down some people trying to feed their families in the name of "security"???

And then this in your avatar:

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies

Your convictions are blinding you to the truth of the matter...that this law is nothing but converting Az to a police state.


I hope I don't here you cry or complain when they say that the only way to enforce this type of immigration law is by requiring everyone to carry a national ID...hell...maybe even microchipped. All in the name of security...right?

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

Nice response to those guys Outcast,
its almost like the conspiracy site has "moles"
i mean its abovetopsecret for goodness sakes,,,were supposed to be conspiracy therorist,,, but not if its in contrast to our own idioms i guess

bottom line is its a racist law!

reply to post by Night Star

'Star its a racist law.as i stated in a response to somone else this law allows for racial discrimination. if you "look illegal" you can be detained. now what constitutes "reasonable suspiscion"?,, a poncho,sunbrero, oh i got it, a mustache, no wait it has to be YOUR SKIN COLOR!!!! so the law 'Star,,, is biggoted,,,anyone supporting such a law,,,ergo,,must be a biggot.
you cant be mad at the worker and not the employer. they are just seeking the "american way of life" the employer is responsible,,,but with all of the corporate taxes, healthcare and other expenses,,,,survival dictates lower wages,,,will you work for what they do?,,,probably not,,,,im just sayin,,,you gotta look at it from other angles

Finally i can work in Arizona! haha jk. Yes this law is one of the best for this country hope more well all states follow!

Originally posted by consigliere
reply to post by Night Star

 

'Star its a racist law.as i stated in a response to somone else this law allows for racial discrimination. if you "look illegal" you can be detained. now what constitutes "reasonable suspiscion"?,, a poncho,sunbrero, oh i got it, a mustache, no wait it has to be YOUR SKIN COLOR!!!! so the law 'Star,,, is biggoted,,,anyone supporting such a law,,,ergo,,must be a biggot.
you cant be mad at the worker and not the employer. they are just seeking the "american way of life" the employer is responsible,,,but with all of the corporate taxes, healthcare and other expenses,,,,survival dictates lower wages,,,will you work for what they do?,,,probably not,,,,im just sayin,,,you gotta look at it from other angles

Well you can call me a biggot then, I fully support this law an hope more states wake up an do the same. So, the worker is just seeking the "American way of life"? Then why can't they do it going through proper channels legally? I keep asking this an get no answer, so I'll keep asking, show me EXACTLY where in this law, which is a copy of the Federal law where it supports what you claim.

reply to post by Chance321


Ok biggot!

how do they determine who could be illegal?

just answering that 1 question,,,will undoubetly expose the laws biggotry.
you shouldnt be a member here,,,,this is a forum for those that are not SHEEPLE,,,you would be better served at Fox or MSNBC or one of those disinfo agents.

oh,,, ps,,,THINK!!!

Originally posted by Chance321
Well you can call me a biggot then, I fully support this law an hope more states wake up an do the same. So, the worker is just seeking the "American way of life"? Then why can't they do it going through proper channels legally? I keep asking this an get no answer, so I'll keep asking, show me EXACTLY where in this law, which is a copy of the Federal law where it supports what you claim.

The answer to your question is because the US only hands out a limited number of visas per your and a certain number is alotted by country. When they run out that legal channel is closed.

Family can sponser you but it takes time and people tend to be impatient.

Last but not least (this is the one your going to hate the most) if you have any smudge on your record all legal channels are pretty much closed to you.

Not saying that the US doesn't have a right to weed out these people but if they know they aren't going to be allowed in legally then they just choose to go illegally.

[edit on 25-5-2010 by daskakik]

I would not say this bill is racist - in "black and white print". However - there will be some who will try to push its boundaries. Most will not - in my opinion.

When I drive from Arizona to California - - I now have to pass through 4 checkpoints. If its not close enough to the border for Border Patrol - - its the Highway Patrol. A few years ago I past through 1 check point.

Even though I am Irish/German and lily white - - I still feel intimidated. However - the more I go through these check points - - - the more familiar and less intimidated I will feel. It will become "the norm". It will become an expected part of everyday life - - like walking across the street.

Is this OK? Is this a good thing? Other countries are far more strict. I many other countries you wouldn't think about leaving your home without ID papers.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


OutKast, let me ask you this, and if there are any legal hispanics that read this, please respond also.

Let`s put this "the cops will stop you just because your hispanic" thing aside for a moment, ok? Whos fault is it that this is happening, who is to blame? The government? The U.S. citizens (all the races that are here)? The hispanic race alone? I believe there is enough blame to go around to all sides of this. The government, for not doing it`s job in the first place. The U.S. citizens, for not kicking the governments back side, for not doing their job in this case, and for many other reasons. The hispanic race, for putting their own people in this position.

The government, many are corrupt, many with a self fulfilling agenda who doesn`t care one bit about what happens to this country, but they are not all that way, there are a few good in there. The U.S. citizens, either to lazy, to ignorant, or to self involved to do anything about the government, and just as I said above, not all are like that. The hispanic race, same as above.

Why would any people, overall, place not only themselves, but others in a position where they may be singled out by the rest of the world?

How do you cure this? Easy, look at past history and learn from it, and don`t put yourselves through it again. How many times do we need our fingures to be burnt, before we stop touching the hot stove? We are worse then little children in this case. We are all to blame for this, and no one is exempt.

Am I right OutKast?