Why all the Britishphobia in the UK?

I've never quite got to grips with "Britishness"... Nor accepted it thoughly as a term, at least in reference to myself as it seems simply another label to add to the growing collection of labels being thrown around.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc


I'm British, and I'm becoming increasingly fed-up with these posts about what is "supposedly" happening in England.

IT'S BS!

All spread by brainwashed EDL and BNP supporters who believe absolutely everything printed in the right wing propaganda press such as the Daily Fail and Sun.

The "Demands" for places of worship and Sharia law are made by a miniscule and equally idiotic minority of Male clerics who are big fish in a small pond and have the freedom here to make such demands. If they were in their own country (where Sharia Law exists) they would be killed by more powerful people in an instant. They're egotistical idiots who want to gain some power, power that THEY KNOW they would never have the chance of gaining if they lived under Sharia Law in their own country.

And for the record, I am in support of evicting non UK born Muslims who DEMAND that we change our laws to suit their male citizens. They should be returned to their country of birth if they don't like our laws.
For British born Muslims who demand such changes, I believe they should be allowed to ask for whatever they want, doesn't mean they're going to get it.
That's what's great about our country; our citizens have the right to express their views and opinion. That includes British born Muslims and Right-wing fanatics. As long as those statements are within the law neither can be punished for their opinions.

The VAST MAJORITY of British Muslims would NEVER request Sharia Law in the UK, because it limits the freedom and democratic rights that they enjoy.

OP- please educate yourself properly. Go out and meet some genuine Muslim people, instead of relying on misguided reports from the propaganda press of this country.

And to all EDL and BNP supporters who may thoroughly enjoy this misinformed thread: you will never gain the support of our population no matter how hard you try to convince people of your BS. We're not that stupid.

The readers of intelligent and well-rounded press out-number the Sun and Daily Fail readers 10/1, we don't fall for the racist propaganda, and we certainly don't accept that either group (BNP/EDL) are of any benefit to the UK in any shape or form.

And I'll gladly share some more intelligent opposition to any EDL/BNP inspired thread on ATS in the future, just to ensure that readers are not somehow persuaded that a lie is the truth.

Have a good day and enjoy the sunshine.

Originally posted by thoughtsfull

I've never quite got to grips with "Britishness"... Nor accepted it thoughly as a term, at least in reference to myself

as it seems simply another label to add to the growing collection of labels being thrown around.

Is it because we define ourselves in other ways than nationality or such social constructs. I know that my actual nationality is pretty low down on my list of identities?

Does anyone routinely define themselves as British or English first??

reply to post by detachedindividual


I think the worse thing is that these papers fan the racial tensions. It has been proven that everytine there is a sensationlist headline the level of racial attacks increase.

Surely this is not good!

reply to post by stumason


Hi Stumason,

I fully agree with your thought on Englishness. Although I have a little trouble grasping your concept of Englishness as an Ethnicity. from which point do you claim the enthnicity of English. Once you can prove that your line came from the Aenglisch or maybe applying the Nazi Germany rule of 4 generations. (I am NOT implying anything here. I am just using it as the only system I know of that has been applied to determine ethnicity)

Anyway. I call myself English, I know I am descended from Angles through my Paternal Grandmothers side and Maternal Grandmonther, but on both Maternal and paternal sides within the last 2 generations I have Polish and French Canadian.

Sooo by that rule I cannot call myself true blood english!
That makes me sad. Guess I will have to support mexico in the world cup then!!

BTW I am not flaming, I am just intersted in how you count yourself as Ethnically English

reply to post by JakiusFogg


Yeah, you have a good point. It's hard to define an ethnicity anywhere, depending on how far you want to go and what criteria you set yourself. I suppose it boils down to how you define yourself and how you feel.

I suppose what I was getting at is that the true English are the one's descended from those who orginally defined themselves as such. We're all half-breeds though, if we go back and look. I myself have Cornish and Irish ancestry!

What I was trying to articulate at the unholy hour last night was I find it hard to understand how someone from a totally different ethnic stock could define themself as "English". British I can get though..

If I was born in Saudi Arabia, I wouldn't claim to be an Arab, but I would be able to call myself a Saudi citizen, if you see what I mean?

[edit on 22/5/10 by stumason]

reply to post by stumason


Yeah I see what you mean, and it is a complicated thing. when you have one group of people joined together under one banner.

I guess it is what tribe you join

but I still say that you can defect tribes. it just depends on your mindset

if a Fijian guys comes here, and decides consciously that he will become English (not "British") is he English. If he has a son who live all his life in English, and has the accent, enjoy a nice pint of ale, and plays cricket, is he English?

Its a hard thing to define.

So yes there are those who will class to be English you have to be descended of our bloodline. But i also feel that we have to be open to expand our tribe to those who want to join us because we rock!

To those who want to call themselves English after that, then they should be able. As I feel it would take us from a small tribal nation mindset, to actually reclaiming or national identity, as it would reinforce the English as a separate cultural identity, as that which it truly is. Maybe to the point that we can earn our right again to our own government! just like the Scots.\\

So yes fly the flag of St. George, and slap anyone who tells you it's offensive or racist. it's not it is the flag of our English land. if they tried that in Scotland they would get hammered!

reply to post by SearchLightsInc


The Anglican church might well be the established church in England but its jurisdiction does not extend to the other 3 nations of the UK. And only English soccer teams were banned from Europe in the 1980's, their teams and their fans ... notably after the Heysel Tragedy where rioting English fans were responsible for 39 deaths and over 500 injuries ... Scottish teams continued to play in Europe. You talk about "we" as in British, then ramble on about Saint George, patron saint of England, as if Britain and England are necessarily interchangeable, to that extent you know as little about the history of your own country as some of the immigrants you castigate.

Britishphobia ? Many in the UK outside England don't even describe themselves as British any more. They're Scottish or Welsh instead, the fact they have to carry a British passport grates severely ... but not severely enough that they'll do anything about it. As to foreign immigrants not assimilating with British culture, why should they ?

The Brits didn't assimilate to Indian or African culture during the colonial period, why should anyone force immigrants to be Brits, in mindset ? First of all there isn't such a thing anyway, the regional variations in UK are simply too great. But people are what they are, they like the familiar, that's why they live together in the same streets, with people of the same color or faith, people who work for the same companies ... perhaps if Britain and its white inhabitants were a more welcoming place these immigrants might actually try to break out of those communities to see what being British is all about.

Because the reaction of the typical white Briton to a black living next door is still "bang goes the neighborhood" ... one guy I drank with last night described his new neighbors as a dirty n****r ... his fellow Brits (or Scots) whose company we shared didn't protest about that description at all. They just nodded in approval. British racism is alive and well, it's just tucked neatly away behind the lace curtains of Suburbia.

reply to post by Ulala


Well racism is not exclusive to "white" majority countries. Try being a white guy in "Black" or "Latino" majority countries! talk about harsh!

by the way love the Finnish guy on your avatar!!! personally i found it ironic considering the setting on thread topic.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

OP- please educate yourself properly. Go out and meet some genuine Muslim people, instead of relying on misguided reports from the propaganda press of this country.

Have a good day and enjoy the sunshine.

What i find strange is that people like yourselfs seem to have a hard time accepting that i know muslims. I have muslims friends, who are very good friends, from hard working familys that pay their tax, abide by the law and are generally good people. But these muslims dont complain about the law, They understand that here in britain we do not go by the sharia we go by british law. If a resturant doesnt sell halal meat they find one that does without setting up a damn petition and protesting it.
I can understand my post may be sloppy, confusing and not entirely down the point but the point i was truly trying to make is that Islamophobia is not the problem, Britishphobia is. Migrants, not just muslims, rejecting and making a mockery of this country.
It is not for britain to bend for them, it is for them to bend for britain. Which means more st georges day parades without hassle. More marches for troops without opposition, no more small groups being set up specificly to be anti-british.
Perhaps instead of calling me uneducated and insinuating that i am part of BNP or EDL you simply accept this is my opinion and you do not have to agree with what ive said. By all means, share your thoughts - But dont insult me.

And the weather has been wonderful, Truely british

reply to post by Ulala


My mistake. Of course the Scots, Welsh and NI like being seperate to England. If thats what helps you sleep at night then by means revel in that fact. However, i cant see how our small little countrys are different in the ways of culture? Unless, they welcome immigrants to come over and demolish what you have? Perhaps you like rolling out the red carpet and changing places on the council lists in order to help a migrant family with 4 kids instead of a british family with 4 kids? Perhaps you can freely celebrate the saints of your country and dont know what it is to feel threated by those that look at your culture like its scum.

But its your perogative. Perhaps it maybe just "Englishphobia" But the way i see it, this is England and we dont have to bend to your culture while shelfing our own.
Just my opinion.

I guess I am a 'britophobe'...

As far as I'm concerned, we have as much to be ashamed about, as we do to celebrate.

I don't believe in any form of exceptionalism or supremacy. I don't care about petty tribal arguments.

I'm the kind of person who feels uneasy when he sees an England or GB/UK flag, because I live in a BNP type area, where I know what it means. They fly that flag not just because of some benign patriotism, they fly it because they see England as superior to other races/counties.

I do see our liberal views as superior to very authoritarian counties, but when it comes to the other western countries, we don't really have much to crow about.

I think the reason I got these views, is because I was never taught anything as a child about England/UK being either good or bad, so the position I worked out for myself, is that we are basically on par with many other countries, nothing special, with a fair few skeletons in the closet.

Originally posted by harpsounds
I guess I am a 'britophobe'...

As far as I'm concerned, we have as much to be ashamed about, as we do to celebrate.

The only thing we have to be ashamed of is they way we've allowed ourselves to be misled and docrinated by those who think we should be ashamed of all our great acheivements.

And for the record, no we did not invent slavery. Nor did we invent incest or Mango trees.

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc
reply to post by Ulala

 

My mistake. Of course the Scots, Welsh and NI like being seperate to England. If thats what helps you sleep at night then by means revel in that fact.

It doesn't help me sleep but yeah I think I'll have a bit of a revel.

However, i cant see how our small little countrys are different in the ways of culture? Unless, they welcome immigrants to come over and demolish what you have? Perhaps you like rolling out the red carpet and changing places on the council lists in order to help a migrant family with 4 kids instead of a british family with 4 kids?

If they've arrived in the UK legally they've every right to apply for housing ... the key is the word "apply" ... you don't get points because you're black. You get points because you're homeless & half a hundred other reasons. If more council housing is required, then elect a government or council committed to doing so ... oops, you guys just voted Conservative ... so that's that one shafted. Maybe you could tell the darked skinned fellows to sleep in a tent in a park instead, might suit your culture better.

Perhaps you can freely celebrate the saints of your country and dont know what it is to feel threated by those that look at your culture like its scum.

I don't know anybody who thinks "British "culture" is scum. And I don't even think you know what culture even is anyway. So you celebrate the Saint of your country, yeah ? And how does that celebration manifest itself ? Do you go to church, to worship ? Give thanks to your saint ? Write a poem or strum a guitar and sing some songs around a campfire ? Perhaps getting drunk in a pub on a Sunday lunchtime, walking down a "Paki street" with your St George flags and breaking a few windows ... isn't that more likely ?

But its your perogative. Perhaps it maybe just "Englishphobia" But the way i see it, this is England and we dont have to bend to your culture while shelfing our own.
Just my opinion.

Prerogative, that's prerogative. I'm not even British and can spell your own words better than you. That doesn't mean I'm better than you in any way shape or form, but I'd be well impressed if you could tell me the name of the President of Finland, for example, or the King of Norway, without resorting to google. See, me foreigner, me takey interest in da English t'ings. You, you English, you aint gotta clue.

What do you define as "English culture" then anyway, this "culture" that dark skinned foreigners are subverting ... dazzle us with your special insight on English culture.

reply to post by Ulala


Are you really sure you want to say that all English people do not have a clue and spend St georges day down the pub before going off to do something racist.. that's a rather broad sweeping generalisation.

reply to post by JakiusFogg


I think, on reflection, English culture is over 1000 years of history, being aware of it and how it's shaped the nation, to understand the evolution of our society and the way it has impacted upon the world and then to subscribe yourself to those ideals.

I withdraw my earlier comments about English being an ethnicity. It is to an extent but it shouldn't be exclusive. If other folk wish to come here and become "English", that is a good thing and a sign our culture is strong.

What I don't like however, is people calling themselves English with either no knowledge of our national history, customs and practices, or maintaining customs that are not English. It's fine to retain your own national customs, of course, but you couldn't really call yourself English as you wouldn't behave as such.

English is a belief in personal liberty, many customs that go back centuries, a deep seated mistrust of the French, a belief in the rule of Law and following the rules. Oh, don't forget queing!

If you don't hold beliefs that can be identified as English, one cannot call oneself English. The same goes with being a Scot or Welsh, each has it's own customs, practics and history. To call yourself of any nation, one must have a deeper connection that a mere place of Birth.

Sadly, many people, including "English" are so dim witted and have little knowledge of our cultural legacy that what once may have been called Englishness is fading.

Add that to the fact that to be seen to be "English" is looked down upon, as if it is racist and it is hard to assert your cultural identity without being branded a thug, even if you are not engaged in any thuggish behaviour.

This is in stark contrast to the Scots, Welsh and Irish who are free to shout from the rooftops about their own culture and national pride. It makes me sad and, unfortunately, resentful.

Oh, Ulala, without Google this Englishman knows the King of Norway is Harald V. i think you are a hypocrite for sitting there and proclaiming all English are racists and stupid in a sweeping and racist generalisation.

Is that right that UK passports show British, Irish, Welsh, and Scot, but not English?? how dumb is that??

reply to post by thoughtsfull


From what I understand, no-one in England celebrates Saint George's Day, it's not that they feel prevented from doing so, it's just no-one's terribly interested.

No-one apart from the racist fringe.

I wonder how the OP celebrates Saint George's Day ? Does he dress up in a suit of armour and ride round his town ? Maybe he's the rear end of a pantomime dragon (that I really could believe). I can see him now, sitting at his keyboard, trying to conjure up an explanation for how he celebrates the amazing cultural non event that is Saint George's Day, without appearing a racialist.

reply to post by Ulala


Well, you understand woefully wrong. Where did you get your info from?

St georges day is coming back into vogue and has been for some time. It wasn't as big a celebration before as there were the old days where to be "English" was seen to be a skinhead thug.

Nowadays, you can go to the pub with your family, fly the flag and drink some good Ale, have fun in the (sometimes) nice spring Sunshine. In rural area's, fetes and other activity days are held.

Again, you mae another sweeping gernalisation based on nothing. And this is coming from the guy who claims he takes an interest in other countries.

reply to post by Peruvianmonk


No offense here..

But EU immigration into the UK is too much?

Tell that to the Spanish with their Million Spare Brits lying around taking their jobs..

But of course thats different somehow..?



Im not one to complain about Immigration/Emigration because Irish history is rife with it **Ahem** But at least look at both ends of the stick..