The 2010 Census, How I Have Responded to 5 Enumerators

Thanks to everyone who has been posting on the thread. The passions involved with this debate are a wonderful sign that there are some people still willing to do their own thinking and not merely accept things verbatim as dictated by authority.

That is the essence of what true freedom is about.

There is a difference between freedom and liberty.

Freedom is you exercising your natural right to do what ever you choose that the laws don’t forcibly restrain you from doing.

Liberty is doing only those things that the law allows you to do.

Sometimes people get this confused, and because we are conditioned towards liberty (only doing what the law says we can do) and not freedom (doing what you want to do and placing the onus on the State to react to that) not everyone understands that liberty is not true freedom.

The truth is that none of us follows our census forms along the route that they travel after they have been filled out, to where all they go, and see who all gets to see them, and use them, and for what purpose.

Most people’s perception of this process is largely based on assumption and carte blanche trust in the government; neither are particularly wise things to do, even in the best of times.

The truth is, we can not prove, or disprove any process that is not completely transparent to us, so for many people this argument then boils down to, whether you should or shouldn’t trust the government, and whether it’s proper to question or defy the government.

As many people have pointed out, it would be easy for the government through various other means to simply count us, but the government does not count us in the census, it tasks us to count ourselves for it, and to not just count us but to categorize ourselves along various lines, and to accept certain distinctions that do have legal meaning and ramifications that go well beyond the government simply counting us.

Trust me when I say, the government knows full well who I am, and where I live, and I for one don’t care that know precisely who I am, and where I live.

The Census is used for many, many reasons that constitute a wide variety of abuses of the spirit in how it is presented to we the people in my own humble opinion.
Freedom is the desire to make your own choices for your self, and to accept the consequences of those actions, it is the epitome of freewill.

Liberty is the choice to submit to only making those decisions that the laws of the corporate state tell you that you may.

Ultimately I choose freedom which is something that is very threatening to many good people and bad.

Many will choose liberty over freedom which is something that should never be confused with true freedom.

Freedom is true choice and the exercise of freewill.

Liberty is a permission based process.

People should in fact respect the individual’s decision to choose freedom or liberty, but the truth is that people who settle for liberty often would prefer that others never exercise true freedom, and because liberty is an acquired taste based on varied and ever changing rules that people have been indoctrinated into accepting, it is through notions of liberty that our freedoms to exercise true freewill constantly decrease at the hands of the state, in part because the people indoctrinated into believing liberty is freedom, are all to happy to give up their freedoms for the state.

Who really is the most important thing in your world, God, the State or you?

Who do you really rely on most to get you through your day, and sustain you, and keep you safe and secure, God the State or you?

Who truly is going to consider what is very best for you based on your own real and individual needs, God the State or you?

Freedom is the process of you determining these things, and being responsible and empowered to fulfill them.

Liberty is the process of the state determining these things and handicapping you in that process for both profit and control.

I have witnessed several other people in this thread provide valid reasoning that the OP is in error. I have seen myself and these other persons provide ample and overwhelming evidence to his error. I have myself and have seen others ask Proto to provide some sort of source material to support his claims and have seen no valid sources cited. I have seen Proto insult persons and myself on this website when we make these points and I have seen others who insult him accused by him of weakening their arguments.

In my last post I said no reasonable reply was expected. I want to thank Proto for his reply which further reinforced the weakness of his position as well as the fact that his response met my expectations perfectly.

Rather than those of us in this thread continuing to attempt to have a valid discussion with someone like Proto I thought I should provide an example of just how futile of a discussion it is. In the link below Proto is the speaking character on the right hand side of the couch (right hand side as we view the video not right hand from the characters perspective)
The Debate Tactics of Persons Such as Proto

I would also like to make an earnest appeal to the moderators to have this thread transferred to the HOAX section immediately. Should the disinformation and irrational statements of Proto be followed by readers of this thread they could suffer penalties prescribed under the law regarding the Census. I feel it is in the best interest of anyone reading this site that this thread be labeled as a hoax to help keep otherwise good people from suffering needless but valid criminal prosecution for violating the laws pertaining to the Census.

reply to post by Dilligaf28


Actually you haven't proved any of your contentions beyond a reasonable doubt and are not in a position to do so, unless you can certify you are the Cheif Census Taker of the United States and take us on an inspection tour that satisfies each and every last question people have.

Nothing in my opening statement is false, it's using the government's own form, and standardized dictionaries to break down what it says.

The fact that you are worried that people might make what you consider a poor decision based on the discussion of things like words and dictionaries reeks of the kind of tyranny that is the anti-thesis to freedom.

Freedom is choice.

Declaring you have made sound arguments that are merely opininion that you purport to be fact is disengenuous since everyone is expressing nothing but opinions, since no one has complete and total first hand knowledge and is in a position of accountability.

In reality you haven't done much but embark on a series of personal attacks while trying to make partial and incomplete definitions of precise words fit your perspective.

In fact many of the ATS members who study matters pertaining to the law and corporate government have shredded the skeptics, schills, and other dysfunctional thinkers in this thread.







[edit on 21/5/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by Dilligaf28

 

There was no such thing as a US citizen before the 14th Amendment people were considered citizens of their respective republics which were considered sovereign nations. The US was never meant to be one big Country it was a union of the several states for mutual defense and free trade period.

The 14th amendment is de facto anyway because congress was convened unlawfully by Lincoln to foment the civil war. There was no congress it was effectively dissolved when the southern states seceeded.

[edit on 20-5-2010 by hawkiye]

Perfectly stated again. I sincerely wish more people would understand this. Excellent thread Proto. I am NOT a person, U.S. citizen, resident nor any other entity that this corporate fascist, joke of a "government" would wish to label me. BTW you do not need a zip code either. It is used to give the IRS jurisdiction they would otherwise not have. If you accept the mail to the zip code you are consenting by assent.

c/o non-Domestic Foreign Mail near:
1234 Bonehead Street
Hopeless, Indiana republic
Zip Code exempt, Without the U.S.

That is how an address should appear.

reply to post by daddio


I am not familiar with how to link back to one of my previous posts so I will provide you with the date and time I posted my response to the statements you quoted.

posted on 20-5-2010 @ 06:52 PM

The above response I provided to that statement was not addressed and has as of yet not been addressed. The dates and facts in my response are a matter of historical record. How then is the 14th Amendment defacto if it was voted on by a full Congress with all former Confederate states fully represented?

reply to post by Dilligaf28


Duh the Southern States were under military occupation at that time. It's called gun barrel diplomacy, or Don Corleone making you an offer you can't refuse.

That is a de facto act and not a de jure act.

It is also a clear indication of a War Time Military Government being in place and full force, otherwise known as a dictatorship.

The fact that the U.S. Congress did not vote to end military occupation of the Southern States until 1978 says quite a lot for how well Washington trusted the good people of the southern states to make 'right' decisions.

The truth is even when presented with evidence that is based on historical record and common sense, nothing constitutes an absolute in your mind except if the state decrees it as such.

The matter has been thoroughly discussed, and while I for one and I suspect most others are willing to grant you the right to your own opinions, for some strange reason you have a very hard time extending the courtesy to others in return, when it comes to events that are dubious in nature and flawed in their presentation, and as such subject to individual interpretation.

Placing a state under military occupation, is akin to having someone in my home with a gun on my wife and children, who tells me "Go to the Automated Teller Machine", do I really want to go to the ATM just because I go to it, and withdraw the limit, or am I being cooerced too.

When basic reasoning escapes people in their decision making process, they are bound to make bad decisions.

reply to post by Dilligaf28


Whatever valid reasoning you refer to that would refute what the O.P. has stated is not so clear. Surely I, and others, have addressed one poster who purported to offer valid reasoning by way of linking us to the ADL, which is the Anti Defamation League, and then that poster turned around and defamed the O.P., while the link provided left me unable to access the supposed case law that would refute the O.P., and when asked of that poster to actually cite the case law referenced in the ADL link, that poster ignored this request, instead insisting his libel was justified.

I have now witnessed you declare valid reasoning and in the name of that so called "valid reasoning" have urged the moderators to silence the O.P.'s, and indeed others, including mine, by relegating this thread as a "hoax". This willful gesture of chilling speech only reveals your genuine nature, and it ain't about freedom baby, instead you pretend to do this on the behalf of others.

I have willingly supplied 13 U.S.C. Section 221 to refute that other posters assertion that the O.P. is violating law, and I will now post it here again for your edification:

Search 13 U.S.C. § 221 : US Code - Section 221: Refusal or neglect to answer questions; false answers

(a) Whoever, being over eighteen years of age, refuses or
willfully neglects, when requested by the Secretary, or by any
other authorized officer or employee of the Department of Commerce
or bureau or agency thereof acting under the instructions of the
Secretary or authorized officer, to answer, to the best of his
knowledge, any of the questions on any schedule submitted to him in
connection with any census or survey provided for by subchapters I,
II, IV, and V of chapter 5 of this title, applying to himself or to
the family to which he belongs or is related, or to the farm or
farms of which he or his family is the occupant, shall be fined not
more than $100.


(b) Whoever, when answering questions described in subsection (a)
of this section, and under the conditions or circumstances
described in such subsection, willfully gives any answer that is
false, shall be fined not more than $500.


(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of this title, no person
shall be compelled to disclose information relative to his
religious beliefs or to membership in a religious body.

I have pointed out that the O.P. when addressing the question of not one, but five different census takers, is their any evidence that Proto answered fraudulently and presumably answered to the best of his knowledge. I have not read a single post of yours that reveals the O.P. to be a liar, or to have willfully defraud the Census Bureau, or member in this site. Indeed, the O.P. diligently made clear that he was not offering any legal advice nor advising anyone to take the road he did, and even still, it is not enough for you to take up reasoned debate and refute the claims, you instead must begin a campaign to chill speech. How such a thing should ever be considered as valid debate is beyond me.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Your OP contains MANY incorrect assumptions on your part, not the least of which is the very first one: The United States is a Registered Trademark. As has been pointed out (and you could have EASILY found this had you had the least desire to Google it) the trademark is for the LOGO. Several members have pointed out this fact, but you continue, headstrong, down the path of suspicion, unwilling to simply admit that you were mistaken and that your tin foil cap is just a little, little bit too tight.

That's fine. Continue with your colorful fantasy.

All I can say is, Have a nice trip.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Dilligaf28

 

Actually you haven't proved any of your contentions beyond a reasonable doubt and are not in a position to do so, unless you can certify you are the Cheif Census Taker of the United States and take us on an inspection tour that satisfies each and every last question people have.

If the Chief Census Taker invited you on this tour and dutifully satisfied every one on of your questions would you accept that you are in error? I have a distinct notion that you would refute his authority and continue to make your erroneous claims.


Nothing in my opening statement is false, it's using the government's own form, and standardized dictionaries to break down what it says.

Your entire presmise is based on a misinterpretation of the trademark symbol. You have yet to comment regarding mine and other statements about this supposed trademark not being universally applied to all texts containing the words "The United States of America." If the U.S.A. were copyrighted it would indeed be universally applied.


The fact that you are worried that people might make what you consider a poor decision based on the discussion of things like words and dictionaries reeks of the kind of tyranny that is the anti-thesis to freedom.

Knowledge is the key to the opposition of tyranny. False knowledge purpoted without proof is a form of tyranny in and of itself.


Freedom is choice.

Indeed freedom is choice. The strongest freedom can only come from the strongest choices. The strongest choices are based in reason and are rational without great leaps of logic involved.


Declaring you have made sound arguments that are merely opininion that you purport to be fact is disengenuous since everyone is expressing nothing but opinions, since no one has complete and total first hand knowledge and is in a position of accountability.

For an argument to be sound it must able to be supported by documented facts and sources. To have a sound argument is not to have a correct argument at all. I have not at all claimed my opinions are facts. I have stated what my opinions are and backed them up with the facts that allowed me to form my opinion. You also do realize that you have just stated your supposed correctness on this matter is an opinion?

In reality you haven't done much but embark on a series of personal attacks while trying to make partial and incomplete definitions of precise words fit your perspective.

I have not insulted you or any other poster. I have engaged in no personal attacks of any sort. I have engaged your arguments and have offered arguments that are more sound with sources and have been ignored partially or completely. My youtube link is not an attack on you as a person; it is an easily understood metaphor illustrating what a debate between someone with sound opinion backed up by fact and someone basing their argument off of their own opinions without regard to fact.


In fact many of the ATS members who study matters pertaining to the law and corporate government have shredded the skeptics, schills, and other dysfunctional thinkers in this thread.

Many ATS posters within your own thread have offered ample evidence to contradict your notions yet have been met with insults, ridicule, and other ineffective and untentable statements.

This posting marks the official and final end of my involvement with this thread. I would like to again remind the readers that when two parties offer debate both parties can have valid arguments supported by facts with only one victor at the end of the debate. Those who debate with illogical and unsupported statements again fit the description of this video:

Sound arguments Vs. Untentable Arguments






[edit on 21/5/10 by Protopla

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Thought this might be a relevant expression.



reply to post by defcon5


You keep bringing up resident, but you do not use the very color of law you keep trying to defend.

Let us use your color of law definition, from this thread-Tell me, are you a person, citizen, resident, corporation or a HUMAN BEING?

United States Code Title 26 Subtitle F Chapter 7701 Cornell University Law
School

(a) When used in this title, where not otherwise distinctly expressed or manifestly
incompatible with the intent thereof—
.....(1) Person
.....The term “person” shall be construed to mean and include an individual, a .....trust, estate, partnership, association, company or corporation.

(a)When used in this title, where not otherwise distinctly expressed or
manifestly incompatible with the intent thereof—
.....(30) United States person
.....The term “United States person” means—
..........(A) a citizen or resident of the United States,
..........(B) a domestic partnership,
..........(C) a domestic corporation,
..........(D) any estate (other than a foreign estate, within the meaning of paragraph ..........(31)), and
...............(E) any trust if—
....................(i) a court within the United States is able to exercise primary ....................supervision over the administration of the trust, and
....................(ii) one or more United States persons have the authority to control all ....................substantial decisions of the trust.

So, Proto has argued that the United States is a corporation and has delivered ample evidence.

By the above codified statute, resident is also codified as a corporate entity within the corporate United States.

Just by signing anything stating that you are a resident provides proof that you are a corporation in the corporation.

So here is your proof you wanted.

I believe the issue here is trust. I do not trust the federal government or the ideas that it stands for. And when I hear reports on how the current president wants to know about the information that the Census has gathered has given me pause to think that why does the current President need this information, after all neither he or the people in congress are representing or listening to anything that the majority of the country is saying. So many people are just responding with the basic information and sending it back, or just ignoring it fully.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Wonderful post my friend. You can see clearly that when presented with actual evidence that these people will defer to scare tactics to assert their perceived control. This is how they work and maintain their status. Through fear.

The ADL definitely has a vested interest in silencing the truth. They must maintain their control over our policies to further their own agendas. When people begin waking up, it scares them. So they resort to scare tactics.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

I have pointed out that the O.P. when addressing the question of not one, but five different census takers, is their any evidence that Proto answered fraudulently and presumably answered to the best of his knowledge. I have not read a single post of yours that reveals the O.P. to be a liar, or to have willfully defraud the Census Bureau, or member in this site. Indeed, the O.P. diligently made clear that he was not offering any legal advice nor advising anyone to take the road he did, and even still, it is not enough for you to take up reasoned debate and refute the claims, you instead must begin a campaign to chill speech. How such a thing should ever be considered as valid debate is beyond me.

The truth is that the only genuine advice I have offered, is regardless whether you want to participate in the Census or not, please be nice and civil with the Census workers.

I guess I should be thrown in jail for suggesting people be civil and cordial to Government workers!

In fact I haven't had to refuse answering questions on the Census, because when they ask me the first question, I ask them if I can ask them some questions about the Census.

By the time I am finished asking my questions, and sharing my observations and perspectives, they have all voluntarily chosen to put away there clipboards and not to attempt to ask me any questions.

I can't in fact answer a question that is never asked. I am not the great Swami!

Because I haven't answered any of their unasked questions, I certainly can't give a fraudelent answer to the questions.

In fact my presentations to the census workers so far have been so well laid out, I ask them once finished if I should fill out the census and they have actually said, no, based on what you have just pointed out to me, I couldn't and wouldn't recommend it.

So in reality, I am just cooperating with their own better judgement.

Which I will admit I helped them reach that conclusion.

I do want to restate clearly this is a matter of personal choice for me, and I am not advocating that anyone ever do as I do, or insist ever that they do as I do.

Providing people with additional information is not tampering with their freewill.

Withholding information or telling them how they must interpret information and what they must do with it and how they must act upon it is.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

..I'm pretty sure most people by now have turned their forms in, before this thread.. or threads like this..

And if I told the Government I was a white male ..... what difference would it make? ..
I usually agree with most people on this thread (well obviously not the OP) .. just think this census thing gets taken way out of proportion.

You ask what difference does it make, if you asked Proto, and by the way I am not speaking for him, why this thread is important he would probably say it's important because this is only a small part of the grand scheme of things, a piece of the puzzle on the way to truth, in this case it happens to be the Census, make so mistake everything is by design, by learning what really is going on it affords us to wake up and question more as so well illustrated by many posters in this thread, maybe the truth won't set us free today but hopefully we are on the way, so yes this thread does and will make a difference to many here.

Thank you OP for putting up this thread.

[edit on 21-5-2010 by Aquarius1]

reply to post by Dilligaf28


This is a discussion thread where people discuss things with opposing views, and it is a discussion along these lines per ATS

This forum is for the discussion of contemporary world events, with a general focus on conspiracies and/or cover-ups that may not easily fit into other topical forums. Discussion topics and follow-up responses in this forum will likely tend to lean in favor of conspiracies, scandals, and cover-ups. Members who would seek to refute such theories should be mindful of AboveTopSecret.com's tradition of focusing on conspiracy theory, cover-ups, and scandals.

Now honestly you are having trouble with what the spirit of ATS is, and I defy you to find me one occurence on ATS where every one posting to a thread is likeminded and agrees 100% with one another.

In fact what you are advocating for is that any opinion not held by you, or those you agree with be banned from being discussed.

There are threads on ATS where like minded people support a wide variety of very alternative ideas that are neither believable or untrue, or true or believable just because in a discussion, various people do turn out to be like minded.

The truth is you are attempting emotional domination and the supression of free speech in order to make your arguments, and that in fact does not speak well for your arguments or your propensity to accept the spirit of what discussion forums such as this on ATS are about.

Thanks for posting!

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


My friend, I too often rely upon awkwardly written sentences, and I hope you understand, as I think you do, what I meant, but for clarification sake, allow me to restate what I said:

Proto has not revealed or offered any evidence of making fraudulent claims, nor has he shown any evidence of willfully refusing to answer.

There, hopefully the matter has been clarified. Thanks again for this thread, Proto.

Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

Wonderful post my friend. You can see clearly that when presented with actual evidence that these people will defer to scare tactics to assert their perceived control. This is how they work and maintain their status. Through fear.

The ADL definitely has a vested interest in silencing the truth. They must maintain their control over our policies to further their own agendas. When people begin waking up, it scares them. So they resort to scare tactics.

It is not other peoples power that scare us, its our own damn power that scares the crap out of us!

I think that something is amiss here.

Exactly why is it that people are choosing to believe in the government?

I've missed something.

Why is it that people are refusing to see what's going on?

Dudes. This is not a fantasy world anymore.

I remember being five years old and the sun shining through the trees was a wonderful thing.

But the trees are just obstacles now. The sun is the light of a fallen angel, so to speak. My memories betray me because while I was enjoying that time, I was completely unaware of all the greed and stupidity and madness so rampant in the world...

And what's worse, it -was- a better world back then.

People are actually BELIEVING the government and politicians now.

How so very odd... considering people have known for generations that these people are liars and thieves.

When did people forget? Is it drugs? Is it fear? What is it that is making people once again believe in the fantasy world?

I hate that world... because it's a lie. These are the days of the end of an empire and the beginning of a new one. These are the days when all the stories from wars and battles and prisons of time's past come back to haunt the living. These are the days when our comforts fall out from underneath us because we relied on them to keep us secure instead of relying on strength and wisdom.

Forgive me if I have a hard time believing government, much less any argument in its defense.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Your OP contains MANY incorrect assumptions on your part, not the least of which is the very first one: The United States is a Registered Trademark. As has been pointed out (and you could have EASILY found this had you had the least desire to Google it) the trademark is for the LOGO. Several members have pointed out this fact, but you continue, headstrong, down the path of suspicion, unwilling to simply admit that you were mistaken and that your tin foil cap is just a little, little bit too tight.

That's fine. Continue with your colorful fantasy.

All I can say is, Have a nice trip.

So much evidence has been presented in this thread that the United States is in fact a corporate entity that how anyone could be questioning the fact that it is a corporate entity is beyond me.

The reality is though that even your argument is flawed in regards to the trademark, because the trademark would in fact have to appear at the end of the mark not in the middle.

The trademark appears directly attached to the United States, in reality Bank ® of America, Citi ® Corp, Proctor ® & Gamble typically appear Bank of America®, Proctor & Gamble® and Citi-Corp®.

The trademark should appear at the end of the mark that is being traded not half way in between, unless of course it's just the United States that is being traded.

Simply declaring someone wrong, and actually providing valid evidence that they are wrong are two different things.

Any one ignoring the overwhelming evidence from multiple sources and occurrences that the United States is in fact a corporation and has been incorporated are the ones in fact clinging to illusion, and these are matters of well documented public record.

Thanks for posting!

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

My friend, I too often rely upon awkwardly written sentences, and I hope you understand, as I think you do, what I meant, but for clarification sake, allow me to restate what I said:

Proto has not revealed or offered any evidence of making fraudulent claims, nor has he shown any evidence of willfully refusing to answer.

There, hopefully the matter has been clarified. Thanks again for this thread, Proto.

You are welcome my friend, and in fact what you originally said was masterfully stated as your prose always is.

I just wanted to clarify additionally from the proverbial horses mouth I am not advocating a course of action for anyone, but am merely sharing personal experiences and observations.

Your additions to the thread have been topical, lucid, exceptionally well presented and easy to understand.

I really appreciate your participation in the thread.

Thanks my friend.