Do Illegal Aliens really deserve this much attention?

reply to post by manta78


immigrationcounters.com's numbers are wrong.

Any site that shows calcs labeled "anchor babies" is pushing an agenda in my opinion.

Illegals create wealth. The rub is that it means greater profits for those who employ them and unemployment for others. That is the wedge in this issue.

More for the haves, less for the have nots. All the while the have nots blame the shouldn't be heres.

reply to post by daskakik



I already responded to your question regarding immigrationcounters.com numbers which you acknowledged.

The term "anchor baby" has appeared regularly in news stories since 1997.
It refers to the practices/hopes of illegal immigrants, that if their children are born in the U.S. that they (their children) will serve as an anchor that will help them (the parents) stay here.


And of course immigrationcounters.com, are estimates from data sources they list here:

immigrationcounters.com...

and make note of their notice on page 1:

"ImmigrationCounters.com provides the key numbers resulting from illegal immigration in the United States. Using the latest government and private sources, research and analysis trending data is factored at their individual rates of increase. Topic related links are provided for you to become more informed by exposing the myths of illegal immigration. For information about the research behind the individual counters, click here Data Sources. ImmigrationCounters.com supports legal immigration and respect for all humanity, yet highlights the significant impact of illegal immigration.."





[edit on 26-5-2010 by manta78]

Originally posted by manta78
reply to post by daskakik

 

I already responded to your question regarding immigrationcounters.com numbers which you acknowledged.

The term "anchor baby" has appeared regularly in news stories since 1997.
It refers to the practices/hopes of illegal immigrants, that if their children are born in the U.S. that they (their children) will serve as an anchor that will help them (the parents) stay here.


And of course immigrationcounters.com, are estimates from data sources they list here:

immigrationcounters.com...

and make note of their notice on page 1:

"ImmigrationCounters.com provides the key numbers resulting from illegal immigration in the United States. Using the latest government and private sources, research and analysis trending data is factored at their individual rates of increase. Topic related links are provided for you to become more informed by exposing the myths of illegal immigration. For information about the research behind the individual counters, click here Data Sources. ImmigrationCounters.com supports legal immigration and respect for all humanity, yet highlights the significant impact of illegal immigration.."

Pointing out the inflating of the number of mexicans by at least 20% means I acknowledged? It doesn't change the fact that they are the majority but I just have this thing about being lied to.

Anchor babies? Well alright but I will say that they could have went with something a bit more neutral.

Now. "yet highlights the significant impact of illegal immigration" but they somehow leave out the wealth created by the immigrants. I have no problem with numbers as long as everything is included in the equation.

I mean this is as bad as pro illegal sites pointing out how illegals contibute to the US without a peep as to the tax evasion or cost of services used or cost of incarceration incurred by illegals.



[edit on 26-5-2010 by daskakik]

In a nut shell, no, it's pretty much a non-issue imo. Well, idk about THAT, but it's certainly not as big an issue as the people who rule over us.

reply to post by daskakik


You stated here:

"I don't think those numbers are accurate. My country estimated that 1.7 million citizens live in the US and 60% are illegal. That is over 1 million illegals from a small Central American country.

We alone almost double the number as stated as illegals other than mexico."
[edit on 25-5-2010 by daskakik]


in another thread; and I responded:


reply to post by daskakik


------------------------------------------------------

"I know, from personal information previously relayed to me, that certain countries in South and Central America, purposely have had some of their citizens claim to be from Mexico, instead of their real country, so as to not cause a "negative reputation", and thus increased crackdown on illegals from those countries. Since they speak spanish, and rarely carry papers, who is to know the difference? I am not excusing that in any way, and I am totally against illegal immigration, regardless of what country; just trying to explain how some of the numbers in the Mexican illegals total are probably from countries other than Mexico, so you could easily be correct in your estimate. I do not think however that the total number of Mexican illegals in the U S is going to vary by more than 1-3 million from the totals given on that website which combines both federal and private sources."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
To which you responded:

"reply to post by manta78


"I have known more than my fair share of illegals and the real reason that illegals claim to be mexican is not because they are told to do so by their government.

The reson is that if you are in a border town and you claim to be mexican they will, or at least they used to, escort you the border and let you cross into mexico from where you could waltz back in. This sure beats being flow thousands of kilometers south of the border and having to trek all the way back.

I realize that the number of illegals in the US is really just a guess but I believe that my country would have harder numbers on the issue because they would have the number of citizens born into the country and the number not accounted for in the census. Those that have traveled legally would have gone through immigration so they would be accounted for. The rest, given room for error, have traveled illegally. Seeing that the trend is to go north and not south. This would give a number closer to the truth.

If taken at face value that would mean that 1 million illegals in the US from a country of 15 million and about the size of Virginia.

South America has 165 time the area of my country and almost 24 times the population. Some of their countries are doing rather well but others are as poor as my country. This would mean that they may seek a better life in one that is better off than travel all the way north to the US. Still, I would not be surprised if the number of illegals from Latin American countries other than Mexico would be around 5 million and this doesn't even take into account immigrants from the rest of the world. "

[edit on 26-5-2010 by daskakik]

[edit on 26-5-2010 by daskakik]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember now???


I am fairly good about remembering responses to any posts I make. So you already knew the answer, but because that particular question and answer session did not rise in this particular thread,, you attempt to use that as a response that you had no knowledge, which is misleading.

With reference to the anchor baby expression, it would appear that the origin came from illegal immigrants themselves; if possible, I will try to track that down, acknowledging that it was first used many years ago, and may not be available to the exact point of first use.


With reference to the wealth issue, there is no question that certain individuals and companies have made money off the labor of illegals , and that has been going on for decades, is wrong, and is one portion of the overall problem that needs to be corrected.

That does not justify a person's behavior so that he or she may sneak in the back door of any country because they are aware of some employers who ignore our laws.

It is a complicated issue, but a resolution is possible, if our federal government is really interested in doing so. And that of course is the million dollar question, that so far, has not been answered.












[edit on 26-5-2010 by manta78]

[edit on 26-5-2010 by manta78]

reply to post by manta78


I remember the thread. We came to a partial answer for why the number of mexican can seem elevated but did not answer why millions of other illegals seem to be labeled Mexican by that site.

The problem I have is the use of the label Mexican when they could have just said Latin Americans. But even that being the case I doubt that 97.5% of the illegals in the US are latin americans.

These are the numbers found on wikipedia here:

Mexico............6,570,000
El Salvador........510,000
Guatemala.........430,000
Philippines..........280,000
Honduras............280,000
India..................270,000

These are from 2006 and philippines and india (Not latin America) almost make up the amount offered by immigrationcounters.com as the number of illegals from the rest of the planet other than Mexico (Latin America if we apply the situation mentioned in the other thread).

It just doesn't add up so I have to say they are not trust worthy.

The use of the term anchor baby doesn't really bother me no matter what the story behind it is but the use of it in a site that also offers fudged numbers makes me take notice.

The complexity of the issue does not mean the site can't also add a guesstimated number for the amount of wealth that an illegal creates.

Here's is an example:

A guy in another thread posted that he would be happy to pay $8 to an illegal rather then $20 to a citizen.

That's $12 per hr or $480/wk x 10 Million (50% employment) that's 4.8 billion a week or almost 250 billion a year that go into the bosses pockets and gets spent and fed back into the US.

immigrationcounters.com offers shy of 400 billion as the amount spent on services by illegals since 1996. That's 22 billion per year compared to our little guesstimation number of 250 billion.

They don't pay taxes on the $8/hr they are earning but if the 250 billion are taxed it does go towards the payment for these services.

You see if you add this number of 250 billion and punch it in with all the negative numbers on immigrationcounters.com it does put things into perspective.

Yes I know the number can be way off (would be nice for someone to crunch up a more accurate one) and that this money does not help anyone directly but the employers. Also "D tookr jeeeeerbs!" and that "illegal means illegal". All these are valid facets of the issue and need to be addressed but if you are gonna bring numbers into play you should bring all the numbers.

[edit on 26-5-2010 by daskakik]

[edit on 26-5-2010 by daskakik]

[edit on 26-5-2010 by daskakik]

reply to post by daskakik


Read this from their website:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Background: The popular myth that there are "10-11M undocumented workers in the country" is misleading, disingenuous and blatantly false. That figure fails to factor in the chain migration unemployed dependent family members (wives, grandparents, migrant children, migrant girlfriends, single mothers, anchor babies), the adult unemployed, those incarcerated, transients and fugitives. After the former Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) was directed by Congress to stop counting in 1981, even the conservative numbers of the 2000 Census Bureau (CB) estimated at that time the total illegal immigration population was about 8 million. That figure was never intended to only represent the number of workers as is incorrectly quoted today."

"Because of the nature of illegal immigration only the nearest estimates are possible. Illegal immigration generally falls into one of two categories: those who entered the country illegally and those who were admitted legally as visitors or on temporary work status and overstayed their visa. The legal status of non-citizens is not routinely ascertained in censuses or surveys with sample sizes sufficient for making accurate national population estimates. An alien registration program at the INS, requiring all resident aliens to report their status annually was discontinued by Congress in 1981. It is unrealistic to expect the Census Bureau to locate the majority of illegal immigrants in the country, nor is it realistic to expect illegal immigrants to fill out census forms. By not revealing their legal status and other personal information, they seek to avoid coming to the government‘s attention. To compound the problem, government officials and researchers often underestimate the effectiveness of the communication networks and the scale of documentation fraud among the illegal immigrant population. The following article highlights how the government has failed to address document fraud."

www.cis.org...

"In spite of these limitations, the Census Bureau did develop some estimates of their own. Their estimates at the time of the 2000 Census indicated that the illegal immigration population was about 8 million. Using this number, it can be reasonably estimated that the illegal-alien population grew by about half a million a year in the 1990s. This estimate is derived from a draft report given to the House Immigration Subcommittee by the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) that estimated the illegal population was 3.5 million in 1990. For the illegal population to have reached 8 million by 2000, the net increase had to be 400,000 to 500,000 per year during the 1990's. The Census Bureau currently estimates a net increase of 500,000 illegal immigrants annually and a current population of about 10.5 million. This number represents one of the lower estimates and is disputed by many in the industry."

"In a document by The Pew Hispanic Center, “Estimates of the Size and Characteristics of the Undocumented Population“, March 2005. They estimated about 11.1 million illegal aliens the previous year and 11.5 to 12 million as of March 2006. The March 2006 estimate found that illegal immigrants have a total of about 3.1 million children who were born in the U.S, and are now U.S. citizens, other sources place this number at 5 million. The report is provided here."

pewhispanic.org...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am sure that if you contact the website, and provide them with
information that you have, that approximately 1 million of your (?) million country's residents are illegals currently residing in the U.S.,
and provide them with some information documenting those estimates, that they will be glad to consider same, and update their records if deemed plausible.



[edit on 26-5-2010 by manta78]

reply to post by manta78


I don't have a problem with the number of illegals claimed by the site but the fact that they are saying that less than 600,000 make up the illegals from all over the planet other than Mexico.

Remember that being taken to the border and released would only be an option to those living in border states because those caught further north are deported by plane so they are not able to claim to be mexican because mexico would not recognize them.

Here's where the info came from:

In the U.S. 1.7 million Guatemalans live, 60 percent of them in undocumented status, and each year about 50,000, most of them without papers, tried to enter the North American country, officials said.

President of Guatemala rejects anti-immigrant legislation passed in Arizona

Theres also:

...though India with 200,000 was the sixth biggest sender of illegal immigrants to the US.

In overall numbers, Indians accounted for only two percent of illegal immigrants. Mexico (6.7 million) topped the list with 62 percent, followed by those from El Salvador (530,000), Guatemala (480,000), Honduras (320,000) and the Philippines (270,000).

Indian illegal immigrants in US up 64 percent last decade

Again these 2 countries make up the amount given on immigrationcounters.com for the rest of the world.

This page shows:

Top 10 legal and illegal immigrant nationalities in the U.S.

Philippines....270,000
India............200,000
Korea...........200,000
China...........120,000

Non Latin American countries with an estimated 790,000 illegals in the US from these four countries alone and immigrationcounters.com says 580,837 is the total of non mexican illegals from the entire planet.

You can trust them if you like but I smell a rat.

Edit to add: Whats worse is that these numbers are based on the 10-12M total immigration and not the 22.5M so it would not be hard to believe that the numbers are double. So 1.58M illegals from the above 4 countries and the .96M from Guatemala.

[edit on 26-5-2010 by daskakik]

[edit on 26-5-2010 by daskakik]

reply to post by daskakik


Not smelling a rat based on one error you cited on estimate # 2.
And as I indicated, since you are the one challenging same, contact
them, and ask for a revised estimate. I would definitely be interested in hearing their response, and seeing a possible revision of same.

reply to post by manta78


What error on estimate # 2. No sense in asking for a revision if theres an error on my part.

[edit on 26-5-2010 by daskakik]

reply to post by daskakik


Just saying that you are pointing out a possible error on their estimates of
the number of illegals other than Mexican illegals in country which may have
some merit.

Ask them for a response to that challenge, and let us know.

Their email address is here:

[email protected]



[edit on 26-5-2010 by manta78]

reply to post by manta78


So I did drop them an e-mail asking about the discrepency in the numbers on their site and the numbers that I had come across. They happen to be from DHS but I didn't know that at the time and didn't cite the source.

It took them 2 hours to get back to me. Their response:

You don't site your source. But if it makes you feel better those numbers are right and ours are wrong.

I wrote back citing the source and also including numbers and source for the Guatemalan estimates on Guatemalan illegals. That was 2 days ago and no answer so I can only guess that they are sticking with their first reply.

They don't seem to be very interested in confirming numbers. Gotta call disinfo agents on immigrationcounters.com.

[edit on 29-5-2010 by daskakik]

reply to post by daskakik


I don't know how things work in Guatemala, but two days is hardly
enough time to allow for a response. You said you contacted them, and they wrote you back saying you didn't cite a source; you then cited the
source by return email. And since it's been two days, you are calling them disinfo agents? Did you really think that they are just going to take your word for it? The answer is no. Just because they have not responded to you in two days, means nothing.

Since they appear to be a large company, I am sure that they have several things going on at once. You have to factor that in, plus time
to verify the source of information you provided, perhaps days in delays or even weeks on that alone.

Then the data, if considered legit, would probably be forwarded to their legal dept. for review. Do you know how long that could take? Lawyers have no concept of real time, based upon several years experience of dealing with them.

Then, assuming the data you provided is ok, they have a big website, and have a webmaster, who would have to enter the data on the site, when he or she could get to it; I have had to wait weeks sometimes to get web people to make simple changes in the past on sites I have owned.

The world never revolves as quickly as we sometimes want it to, but
one has to learn that patience is a virtue, as the expression goes.
If you don't hear anything back in a month or so, or see any kind of
change, you might have a reason to question why. But two days? No.

[edit on 29-5-2010 by manta78]

Originally posted by Merigold

Now for all of you supporting illegal immigration, I'll ask a question that none of you seems to have the cojones to answer. Exactly why do you support it?

I support a fair immigration policy. Your current policy favours immigrants who can PAY. What chance does a poor person from mexico, who lost their ability tomake a living when AMERICAN companies began flooding the country with CHEAP agriculture pushed htme out of a job?

Meh but you don't care, it's all about ME ME ME. My money, my guns my freedom...

So yeah I support illegal immigration, because if some poor person wants a piece of the proverbial American dream, he has no choice but to steal it.

Or alternatively he could become really good at football, or singing...and then he'll be welcome with open arms.

You can continue to push for Illegal Immigration, But to the UK were you appear to be from not America.
Here is a book I recommend you purchase so you'll have an idea what to expect.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c239897ae5b8.jpg[/atsimg]
You can just replace the wording American Jail with UK Jail.

The next picture please replace, You Owe Us America to read You Owe Us UK.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5313ca18ade7.jpg[/atsimg]

We'd be happy to give you all the Illegals you want.

reply to post by manta78


I wrote them twice the first time they responded with their "If it makes you feel better your numbers are right and our numbers are wrong" answer in a little over 2 hours.

The answer alone shows that they don't really care about going into it with anyone. They didn't need my sources to respond with theirs.

Replied with my sources and three days now and still no answer to my second email.

If they could answer my first email in 2 hours I'm sure they could have answered my reply within the last 3 days.

Edit to add - I'm not saying that they should have made changes to the site in a couple of days but they could have at least responded with their sources or maybe a quick "we'll look into this".

[edit on 30-5-2010 by daskakik]

I've always been under the impression that this is a case of 3 card Monty,get the people all charged up over illegal immigrants to take their mind whats going on with the economy,and starting new wars,truth be told the black budget is one million fold of what undocumented workers would cost,I smell a ruse

Originally posted by Oldtimer2
I've always been under the impression that this is a case of 3 card Monty,get the people all charged up over illegal immigrants to take their mind whats going on with the economy,and starting new wars,truth be told the black budget is one million fold of what undocumented workers would cost,I smell a ruse

And You Live In Arizona, or are you the case of 3 Card Monty?
You trying to take our eyes off of a real problem to concentrate on a problem we really have no control over?
Get a gripe, we can't afford to start any new wars.
We all can see whats going on in the Economy, It is not the Black Budget!
Truth be told, The local economy is what worries most of us. Hospitals closing or long wait times in ER.
Being hit in a traffic accident and the other person not having any insurance at all. Property values going down and property taxes going up. Yes, Up, you know why?
To pay for educating the kids of illegals and a load of other things I just don't have the time to list for you.
I just can't believe you live in Arizona, Where at, Sun City ( Gods Waiting Room ), Scottsdale, Heber, Sedona or Flagstaff?

[edit on 30-5-2010 by guohua]

reply to post by guohua


Clearly you failed to read the whole thread, or my responses. I live in the UK because the USA deported me after living there for 25 years, and the UK is the country I feel most at home at. I'm not English, I'm not American, I'm other....

So my oinions on illegal immigration in the USA are based on my 25 years experiences of living as an Illegal alinee for 25 years in the USA.

Good enough for ya?

reply to post by daskakik


Let them know there is a thread about them here at ATS and provide
a link for them to view. I bet you get an answer that is more comprehensive than the one that you stated that they made.

reply to post by Merigold


I take from your post That I am Correct, your post more or less sate, It is the U. S. of A. and their immigration policy that is keeping the poor Mexican down.
BULL SH$T!

If that person wanted to immigrate legally, I say it is possible.
I have to many neighbors in my old neighbor hood here (built 1961)
that have immigrated legally from many counties in S. A. and when I talked to them, they all say the same thing, work and save and wait and prey. The most important thing I hear, is their Love for our country and they have made an effort to learn English.
Yes, from Mexico too.

What I get from your post is a Hate for Americas immigration policy and how it is the cause of all your problems.

Begin Quote"So yeah I support illegal immigration, because if some poor person wants a piece of the proverbial American dream, he has no choice but to steal it. Your current policy favours immigrants who can PAY. What chance does a poor person from mexico, Meh but you don't care, it's all about ME ME ME. My money, my guns my freedom...
I just don't get it, how people can be so selfish, and down right mean. All in the name of Freedom... " End Quote

So, you were deported 5 years ago.
I'm not going to ask the reason way you were deported, that's your business.
But you lived in the deep south for 25 years?
Keep up the good work of trying to spread Hate for America and it's immigration policies. I really do get that from your post, It's all Americas fault, But if there was big money involved, America would make it all better.
Like I said, you want illegals in the U.K., buy the book and read up.


[edit on 31-5-2010 by guohua]

[edit on 31-5-2010 by guohua]