muslim women to remove their veils

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
No.
What I think is repugnant is the subjugation of women by men because they say that their culture demands it.
I stated at the beginning of my post that, security concerns aside, I am all good with the women being forced to wear a burka......

As long as the men are forced to also.

But it is not that way.

Women have been hung on a crane in public places, strangling to death because they talked to a man!

That simply is not right. No way, no how.

reply to post by butcherguy


If it is true that the qu'ran doesn't say to brutalize
women then who did?
I would quess the ayatollahs decided this.It has
been brought to my attention,a lot of muslims don't
even read their own holy book.They completely depend
on their "religious leaders" to tell them what the qu'ran
says.
I read my Holy Book for myself.I don't wait around to
have someone else tell me what it says.

reply to post by mamabeth
-The Koran is if nothing else chock-full of ambiguities, then you can find those in the bible too.

I specifically mentioned culture because it is the Imams and Mullahs that carry out their 'fatwahs' and all that.
The Koran can't do anything, only the people that read it (the way they want to see things) can do the things they do.

Originally posted by butcherguy
I stated at the beginning of my post that, security concerns aside, I am all good with the women being forced to wear a burka......

I agree with you that the custom is repugnant. You said you were OK with the women wearing them AS LONG AS the men were treated equally in some way. Again, I have to agree. That certainly would seem to be more fair TO ME.

My point is that it's not our place to "be OK with" or "approve of" other people's religious or societal customs TO THE POINT OF legally denying them the freedom to practice them in OUR country, a country that boasts of it's freedom of religion, freedom of expression and equality for ALL people of ALL religions.

Beating a woman is already against the law. Women are protected in many ways from affirmative action to to Roe vs Wade. WHAT SHE WEARS, should be her choice, just as it is everyone else's choice, regardless what you think her choice represents or stands for.

I know you see this as a way of protecting women, but it's actually controlling them. They are already free to wear the thing or not and many choose to wear them even though they are single or divorced. And even if they are married and the man tells her to wear it and she complies, that doesn't mean that it's not her choice.

Trying to legislate what a man can tell his wife to do opens up a WHOLE can of worms. It's just not where the government belongs.

And France's Constitution states:

It ensures the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction as to origin, race, or religion. It respects all beliefs.
...
Article 77 [Autonomy]
(1) In the Community instituted under this Constitution, the States shall enjoy autonomy; they shall conduct their own administration and manage their own affairs democratically and freely.
(2) There shall be only one citizenship of the Community.
(3) All citizens shall be equal before the law, regardless of their origin, race or religion. They shall have the same duties.

Constitution of France

[edit on 5/19/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
Agreed!
I don't think we have any disagreement here.
I disagree with the French law, with the exception of security measures, as in banks and that sort of thing.

reply to post by butcherguy


Isn't it great to discuss things with people who, it seems at first, disagree, only to find out that upon further inspection and discussion, that we actually agree?

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I don't recall recently where any western culture ever stated that women HAVE to wear Bras or make-up. I know plenty of women who don't wear make-up, or minimal make-up. As for bras, I'm led to believe that women wear these for comfort and support, especially for women with larger breasts (I wouldn't know myself, being a man and not having moobs).

Your comparrison is flawed.

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by butcherguy

 

If it is true that the qu'ran doesn't say to brutalize
women then who did?
I would quess the ayatollahs decided this.It has
been brought to my attention,a lot of muslims don't
even read their own holy book.They completely depend
on their "religious leaders" to tell them what the qu'ran
says.
I read my Holy Book for myself.I don't wait around to
have someone else tell me what it says.

I played on the safe side and read all the major religious books, including other religions.

Hell, if I'm not going to believe in something, I should at least know what I'm not believing in!

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

WHAT SHE WEARS, should be her choice, just as it is everyone else's choice, regardless what you think her choice represents or stands for.

Try wearing a ski mask or motorbike helmet in a bank and then come back to me on that one, but it's fine for Muslim women to cover their faces in a bank. Do you not see the hypocracy in this? The law should be the law, regardless of religion or ethnic culture.

Also I agree that people should be allowed to practice their cultural heritage, as long as it doesn't interfere with the culture of the country they are living in. If I moved to a foreign country, with a different culture, I would adjust and abide by that culture, not try to force my culture on them. I only expect the same from people moving to my country.

[edit on 20-5-2010 by nik1halo]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by butcherguy

 

Isn't it great to discuss things with people who, it seems at first, disagree, only to find out that upon further inspection and discussion, that we actually agree?

Indeed it is!

I must say I have always enjoyed reading your posts.

I am a libertarian and don't believe that the government should force someone to do anything unless it has an ill effect on someone else.

Originally posted by nik1halo
I don't recall recently where any western culture ever stated that women HAVE to wear Bras or make-up.

And there is no culture that states women HAVE to wear burqas, either. There are PLENTY of women in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran who don't wear them.

Originally posted by nik1halo
Try wearing a ski mask or motorbike helmet in a bank and then come back to me on that one,

It's illegal in four states. That's it.

but it's fine for Muslim women to cover their faces in a bank.

I didn't say that. No one should enter a bank with their face covered. But there are LOTS of places in public besides a bank.

The law should be the law, regardless of religion or ethnic culture.

I agree.

If I moved to a foreign country, with a different culture, I would adjust and abide by that culture, not try to force my culture on them. I only expect the same from people moving to my country.

No one is forcing their culture on YOU. They're not making you wear a burqa.

You know... a lot of people say they'd adapt to a new country and I don't buy it. If you moved to Saudi Arabia, you'd throw away your bible, make your wife wear a head covering and start praying 5 times a day to Muhammad and reading the Quaran? I don't think so. I call shenanigans.

reply to post by nik1halo


At my bank you have to remove sunglasses,hoods
and hats.I see what you mean there.The playing
field is not fair!

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

You know... a lot of people say they'd adapt to a new country and I don't buy it. If you moved to Saudi Arabia, you'd throw away your bible, make your wife wear a head covering and start praying 5 times a day to Muhammad and reading the Quaran? I don't think so. I call shenanigans.

No, I wouldn't, but that is exactly the reason I wouldn't move to Saudi Arabia. If you don't like a culture of a country, you don't move there, it's as simple as that really. If you choose to move to another country, be prepared to follow their culture and integrate into society, not segregate yourself off and demand special privelages and rights above and beyond those of the local populace.

BTW, I'm an Atheist, I've read the Bible and the Qur'an and I didn't buy into either of them, so thowing away my bible and reading the Qur'an would be a bit of a waste of time really.

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by nik1halo

 

At my bank you have to remove sunglasses,hoods
and hats.I see what you mean there.The playing
field is not fair!

Those are, in my experience, the rules in banks throughout the world, well, of the countries I've been to of course, lol.

reply to post by nik1halo


Then that issue should be addressed. Simply blanket banning them is a step backwards for freedom no matter how you dice it. It seems no one cares about the destruction of peoples freedom unless it steps on their toes...only then do people give a damn it seems. I would say to Muslim woman who wear these freely and with pride keep wearing them, make it an impossible task for the French to enforce this draconian policy.

i suport it either just today my kid had a substitute teacher wearing a islam dress type deal with a burka she got scared just looking at her and started crying, practice that all day at home if you want but dont go in public dressed like a freak.

if you support nudism are you going to walk around naked in public? no theres designated places wehre you can and cant, same thing should go for weaing a head to toe costume, the only times in public should be on halloween.

Im not racist or anything like that but how would people react if they saw swomeone with a kkk hood/outfit walking around in public schools? its a different belief that teaches different type of love/hate same thing as islam/muslim/jihadi whatever you wanna call it