Dopamine System in Highly Creative People Similar to That Seen in Schizophrenics, Study Finds

Originally posted by paxnatus
You are glamorizing a devestating mental illness. There are no hidden messages, or supernatural powers that allow one to peer into the future.

You are completely mistaken that what I have said is an attempt to glamorize mental illness.

What you just have done to me is what is typical of people who sympathize with those who suffer from schizophrenia... your took out your pain on others. I'm sorry about your son.

The thread started as a topic about dopamine and creativity. Maybe it would have best not to start such a subject if you are actually overly sensitive to the issues and possibilities.

This is science. I don't blow it off as a mere excuse. Even I have to deal with something myself for which science has said "there is no known cause."

Seriously think about this point: If many of the best and brightest doctors across the world can only agree on a single judgment of "no known cause" put into the DSM-IV then how the hell am I or anybody else suppose to explain anything about it?

Real tears pour from my eyes, and I accept that is a hallucination? You can feel them. You can touch them. Someone else next to me can feel them and see them. And they happen for "no known cause"... but...

...what... someone thinks they can explain with with "oh, it's a mere hallucination."

Let me know what kind of best and brightest doctor you are to come up with some explanation for it that none of these other doctors across the world have managed to come up with. You said, "They believe what they are seeing or hearing is real." What proof do you have of this that those doctors don't have? Your son?

Evident by this thread, I think you are looking for some other explanation. It's obviously important to both of us. I'm at least open minded about it.

Originally posted by dzonatas
Somehow you think that visions have to be from some other parallel universe that exists in completeness like ours. That seems like a common theme to the statements you have given.

Because it's how you opened the discussion. With some comment about seeing into another dimension with a third eye.

Even with a completely deteriorated brain, how could someone still possibly experience even this reality let alone any said hallucination. I think the truths of these matters have just been ignored too often.

The truths are that the brain of someone hallucinating is malfunctioning. If my calculator gives me a bad answer due to a defect, I don't usually leap to the idea that it's a transcendentally true answer in another dimension, I assume it's broken.

Logic isn't always physical. I think you, like many physicists, tend to dismiss the possibilities to use the symbols and names of systems simple because they have been associated with metaphysics somehow. It's like being able to use the symbol for the plus sign, but if the plus sign is said to be associated with metaphysics then you would say the process of addition is "new age."

If you were using an addition sign to mean "use your third eye to see onto the astral plane", then you wouldn't be doing addition even though you put down a '+' sign. But a new ager would be trying to claim that since math uses '+' and his new age mystic crap ALSO used '+' that they were somehow the same.

How would...That is nonsense.

No one did.

The Wright brothers maybe imagined being able to fly around in a plane before there were things to actually fly. If they never got off the ground, it would still be an hallucination in your terms.

Their brain ran a simulation -- not a hallucination.

The difference comes in when the plane tells you to cut your wrists. Or starts knocking on your door.

Originally posted by Bedlam
The truths are that the brain of someone hallucinating is malfunctioning.

With that type of conclusion, you are delusional endangerment with your insensitivity. You are likely to think a daydreamer has a malfunctioned brain.

The difference comes in when the plane tells you to cut your wrists. Or starts knocking on your door.

Maybe you should consider how you separate daydreams from hallucinations.

Originally posted by paxnatus
Ever written a poem, story? How about a song? Can you sketch, paint? maybe you are great at solving puzzles?

If you answered yes to any of the above, you have a mind similar to that of a person with schizophrenia.

I believe that.
Only, "schizophrenia" is a catch-all name for a state of openness that baffles old-school psychiatrists.
Or call it a pseudo-scientific translation for "this person doesn't react and ratiocinate according to the usual stereotypes as much as we would expect from people, and we have no idea why".

Same thing with "hallucinations".
Just because others do not necessarily see or hear something a person does it doesn't necessarily mean that thing isn't there, on some very "objective" level. Sometimes it does, but not always.






[edit on 19-5-2010 by AdAstra]

[edit on 19-5-2010 by AdAstra]

reply to post by dzonatas


The difference is when you start externalizing your dreams/imagination in such a way that you have trouble distinguishing it from objective reality. Or it doesn't seem to be your imagination, and just happens when you don't want it to.

I know you don't want to hear that, for some reason. The few people I know that try to pawn off this argument generally are in denial about having a problem with it.

Tell us, dzonatus - early to mid 20's male? Starting to hear things? Maybe strings of words repeated over and over, or intrusive thoughts, maybe even "computer or machine noises" or voices from empty rooms sorts of things going on? Another voice in your head besides your own, and it holds conversations with you sometimes?

Originally posted by Bedlam
I know you don't want to hear that, for some reason. The few people I know that try to pawn off this argument generally are in denial about having a problem with it.

Maybe you have denied it in yourself and you think you have accuse others of denial to protect yourself.

That's life.

Originally posted by paxnatus
How am I positive this is caused by a chemical imbalance?

My son has Schizoaffective Disorder. The best of both a severe mood disorder along with the positive signs of schizophrenia. Positive meaning present.

On his meds he is managable off them his life becomes a living nightmare!

Yes, he is very bright but harboring the secrets to the universe, no I don't think so.

Pax

Is he stable on one regime? It seemed like the younger guys had to be changed out from one set of meds to another, it's like they became immune to them and had to have a "vacation" from first one med and then another, then could go back to them after a break on something else.

I never had a schizoaffective "buddy" but I did have bipolar disorder and schizophrenic ones, and I can't imagine the combo.

You deserve a medal - you don't get to take them back home at the end of the day and be done with it for a week. Eight hours a week used to wear me out with the really 'active' ones.

reply to post by dzonatas


To not accept schizophrenic hallucinations as real is absolutely ridiculous. To suggest that these are possibilities to a reality that could be accurate tells me not only do you not understand mental illness, it says to me you do not understand physiology of the human brain, or what you do understand of it is simply one's opinion.

I did not attack you for out of "my own emotional" pain. Don't twist what I said with your own insinuations and paint me out to be a victim. That is a weak argument at best.

while I am not a physician of psychiatry, I do hold a Masters in Nursing and spent several years as a psychiatric nurse. What gives me more experience
than you with the symptoms of Schizophrenia is a first hand look at my own child.

To pride yourself on Science and discount medical evidence is contradictory. The problem I have with the way you were "explaining" hallucinations lies in misrepresentation of the medical facts. The line of "logic" you presented something like " Well maybe they aren't the ones with the problem, maybe its their third eye awakening and ours hasn't" is esoteric
bull!

There is a danger involved in your way of thinking. When so little is known about a severe mental illness, to suggest, there is nothing wrong could lead the ill to go off their medication and endanger themselves or someone else.

If medical specialists began to view real mental illness this way, the research would not only slow down, it would basically stop. I mean what is the point of helping someone who doesn't really have a problem?

While we do not know the exact cause of schizophrenia, we do know that stimulation to certain parts of the brain cause hallucinations and delusions.

To hopefully end the idea of hallucinations do not exist I found the following article.

Distortion of the sense of reality, actualized in delusions and hallucinations, is the key feature of psychosis but the underlying neuronal correlates remain largely unknown.

We studied 11 highly functioning subjects with schizophrenia or schizo-affective disorder while they rated the reality of auditory verbal hallucinations (AVH) during functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI).

The subjective reality of AVH correlated strongly and specifically with the hallucination-related activation strength of the inferior frontal gyri (IFG), including the Broca's language region.

Furthermore, how real the hallucination that subjects experienced was depended on the hallucination-related coupling between the IFG, the ventral striatum, the auditory cortex, the right posterior temporal lobe, and the cingulate cortex.

Our findings suggest that the subjective reality of AVH is related to motor mechanisms of speech comprehension, with contributions from sensory and salience-detection-related brain regions as well as circuitries related to self-monitoring and the experience of agency.

link: brain.oxfordjournals.org...



[edit on 20-5-2010 by paxnatus]

Originally posted by paxnatus
To not accept schizophrenic hallucinations as real is absolutely ridiculous.

The very definition of a hallucination involves an illusion. The way you tell me you want to believe in hallucination is the same as if you wanted to believe card tricks are real. Do you believe David Copperfield actually made the State of Liberty disappear? If you believe in hallucinations, you believe he made it disappear.

...or what you do understand of it is simply one's opinion.

And yet, you seem to deny me of my own opinion.

The line of "logic" you presented something like " Well maybe they aren't the ones with the problem, maybe its their third eye awakening and ours hasn't" is esoteric
bull!

What you just said there tells me you haven't really read anything I wrote. I never mentioned anything about an "awakening." I said there is a technological explanation... not another hallucination behind a hallucination.

There is a danger involved in your way of thinking. When so little is known about a severe mental illness, to suggest, there is nothing wrong could lead the ill to go off their medication and endanger themselves or someone else.

I never said there was nothing wrong. Where and why do you make this up?

I just want to understand how the brain functions, and I don't accept and stop at a simple excuse as "it's a mere hallucination."

It is not appropriate to tease and treat people like they have no right to exist in the world simply because they experiences anything like a hallucination.

It is not appropriate to treat people like they are suicidal or homicidal maniacs simply because they experiences anything like a hallucination.

I don't believe anything like a hallucination is good enough evidence that the brain has deteriorated. One can run a CAT scan in order to see if the brain has deteriorated.

While we do not know the exact cause of schizophrenia, we do know that stimulation to certain parts of the brain cause hallucinations and delusions.

To hopefully end the idea of hallucinations do not exist I found the following article.

You mixed up the arguments of the cause of hallucinations with the cause of schizophrenia. These aren't the same even if they are somehow related. You can still believe in schizophrenia and not believe in David Copperfield's hallucination. I don't think you have understood that clearly.

To not accept schizophrenic hallucinations as real is absolutely ridiculous.

Schizophrenics aren't the only ones said to have experienced anything like a hallucination.

Originally posted by paxnatus
To hopefully end the idea of hallucinations do not exist I found the following article.

Furthermore, how real the hallucination that subjects experienced was depended on the hallucination-related coupling between the IFG, the ventral striatum, the auditory cortex, the right posterior temporal lobe, and the cingulate cortex.

To further add to a possible cause for this that has been undetected before, we look to science that has been barely understood yet proven to work:

Researchers have now demonstrated the teleportation of quantum states between two ions that are a meter apart, a development that has applications in both quantum computing and communications.

Teleportation, from a quantum perspective, doesn't mean the same thing as it does to everyone who immediately thinks of Star Trek's transporters. In general, it involves two entangled quantum objects, a sender and a receiver, and the quantum state of the former is sent to the latter. A measurement can be performed on the sender that, thanks to the entanglement, changes the state of the receiver. The results of the measurement of the sender can then be used to manipulate the receiver, placing it into the same state as the sender.

Source

Since the chemistry of the brain is still understood, it leaves the possibility that any drugs or natural chemistry of the brain may be imbalanced due to the effect of quantum teleportation. It could be complete noise through quantum teleportation, yet somebody probably will try to suggest it was intentional mind control through quantum computers. I simply say that the brain is so incredible that it will attempt to take such noise and try to make sense out of it. To still say that is a hallucination is to say the brain is in error for its attempt to do its job. I don't think it is right to ignore the senses as a malfunction when the brain has perfectly done what it tried to do to make sense out of it's perception.

In more recent discoveries, they have proven such quantum teleportation over 10 miles: Quantum teleportation achieved over ten miles of free space

A very creative mind may be simply an indication of a brain that is even more incredible to go further in its attempt to make sense out of even complete noise. It's suppose to do that.

reply to post by dzonatas


Actually we have a pretty idea of what causes the hallucinations. Firstly, we can look at the types of drugs that work on the positive symptoms of schizophrenia. The classic typical antipsychotics work solely on dopamine receptors, specifically D2 receptors. Modern atypical antipsychcotics work on dopamine as well as serotonin receptors. What they do is block these receptors so the normal neurotransmitters cannot bond with them due to there being an excess. Now since these drugs work on reducing hallucinations it is a good chance that serotonin and dopamine are causing the hallucinations.

We can then follow this up by looking at long term drug addicts of stimulants, specifically coc aine and amphetamines. Cocaine produces its effect by increasing the amount of serotonin in the brain, while amphetamines increase the amount of dopamine in the brain. It is very common to find behaviors and hallucinations in long terms users of these substances identical to those of schizophrenics.

So, I fail to see how you can say that hallucinations are anything more that a imbalance of chemicals in the brain. We have the fact that there are drugs out there that are able to bring levels of neurotransmitters into a normal level, which in turn causes the hallucinations to cease. At the same time we have drugs that are linked to the same receptors as those in schizophrenia and when these drugs are taken in larges amounts they produce symptoms identical to schizophrenia that can become permanent if the person continues to use the substance. While our understanding of the role glutamate plays in schizophrenia is still lacking, although we are pretty confident it produces the cognitive problems present in schizophrenia; and while we're not sure what problems are caused by the enlarged ventricles present in most schizophrenics; it is pretty much an open and shut case that the characteristic hallucinations are caused by an overproduction of dopamine and serotonin.

Dopamine System in Highly Creative People Similar to That Seen in Schizophrenics, Study Finds


there might be some thin, spider-web like similarities, but i would not go as far as to infer or imply that my group of schizophrenics should be held out as creative minds or artists & such.


the mind traps, voices, snaps of discordent thinking, very real delusions are not akin to creativity............

i would say schizos in general are engulfed in a world of their own making,
much like the pious Christians reality of having 'spiritual' moments of ecstacy & talking with god and having 'heaven' within - inside their being/soul...
both worlds are mental constructs,
so that is the extent of both subjects' 'creativeness'

the schizo & the religious fanactic are brothers, but in different mental landscapes
& both are far removed from being Creative People, let alone world changers as the presentation seems to be playing on.


thanks

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
... it is pretty much an open and shut case that the characteristic hallucinations are caused by an overproduction of dopamine and serotonin.

That's an oversimplified explanation. It's like to say, "we know the cause of the pictures on the page of paper appear when we leave a pencil on top of a blank page."

It doesn't explain how all the individual lines are drawn. It doesn't explain all the different gradients being being made into shade and effects of depth. It doesn't explain who or what really picked up that pencil, if anybody, and made a picture appear on the paper.

I don't believe "the pictured just appeared" because that is being a naive realist. There are other causes besides the elemental tools being present.

Here is a page to study in a book about naive realists: Perception, Hallucination, and Illusion, page 14

Those who believe directly in hallucinations are naive realist. The book goes on to explain the higher orders of belief, how people with higher orders of belief can distinguish hallucinations, and how they know they experienced one, yet then it becomes no longer an illusion to the brain (which no longer fits the definition of a hallucination).

[edit on 20-5-2010 by dzonatas]

reply to post by dzonatas


What are you talking about? Lets clear up a misunderstanding right now. Hallucinations and delusions take place in a state of psychosis.

I am not saying nor have i ever said what a person my be seeing or hearing is "actually" present. I am saying something happens in the brain that causes the person to believe what they are seeing and hearing is real. Of course it is not actually there. People who are not in a state of psychosis cannot see the hallucination.

A Hallucination as defined by the dictionary:

1.
a sensory experience of something that does not exist outside the mind, caused by various physical and mental disorders, or by reaction to certain toxic substances, and usually manifested as visual or auditory images.
2.
the sensation caused by a hallucinatory condition or the object or scene visualized.
3.
a false notion, belief, or impression; illusion; delusion.

dictionary.reference.com...

Are we at least clear on what a hallucination is?

You are right hallucinations are not limited to people with Schizophrenia.
They occur when the brain is in a state of psychosis.

psychosis:

a mental disorder characterized by symptoms, such as delusions or hallucinations, that indicate impaired contact with reality.

What I am stating and have given evidence for is that hallucinations occur due to to the chemical imbalance involving the neurotransmitters, dopamine,
and serotonin.

It is not appropriate to tease and treat people like they have no right to exist in the world simply because they experiences anything like a hallucination. It is not appropriate to treat people like they are suicidal or homicidal maniacs simply because they experiences anything like a hallucination.

I am sorry, I really don't understand your above quote. Why in the world would I tease you about something I care so much about? When my own precious 13 yr.old son has this serious mental illness?

Never would I judge someone because of something they cannot help. I sincerely apologize for offending you.

Since the chemistry of the brain is still understood, it leaves the possibility that any drugs or natural chemistry of the brain may be imbalanced due to the effect of quantum teleportation. It could be complete noise through quantum teleportation, yet somebody probably will try to

With this you have lost me.

Why don't you u2u me so we can talk about this. We may be able to help one another.

Sincerely,

Pax

It is has been postulated by many neuroscientists and neuroendocrinologists that the visual and audio hallucinations of the schitzophrenic can arise from problems in the temporal lobes of the brain. This portion of the brain has been called by some, the God center of the brain. Patients who have temporal lobe epilepsy without the diagnosis of schitzophrenia often have the same kind of hallucinations and severe delusions that schitzophrenics have, but they are in now way schitzophrenic. It is not externalization, but just the opposite...internalization, that occurs, in these people. The externalization is the worsening of their symptoms. There can be problems of anatomic anomaly in the arteries in the brain, including arterial spasm, as well as neurotransmitter imbalance, overaction of the limbic system, and dysregulation of the frontal lobe and pre-frontal cortex. Too bad we can't just do a defrag of the whole brain, or install a new operating system...in fact, that's basically what electro-convulsive therapy does. There are no simple solutions to schitzophrenia. It must be like being in a small ship during a big storm.

reply to post by dzonatas


I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at, but I think what you're trying to bring up is the cause for the schizophrenia. All evidence suggests that genetics play a major role in the development of the disorder. This is best exemplified by the fact that prevalence of schizophrenia remains around 1%, however if you have an identical twin who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia then your chances of also developing the disorder are 50%. Once again, I'm not sure if this is what you were asking, but I feel like it was what you were trying to get at.

Originally posted by paxnatus
With this you have lost me.

Why don't you u2u me so we can talk about this. We may be able to help one another.

Meant to type "chemistry of the brain is still misunderstood."

We can't deny the vast amount of information that exists in the world, and it is hard to say what really interests the brain make sense out of it all. I think people have had a hard time to even simply make sense of these conditions on top of all this information and have gone far out of their way just to stand-up for themselves and be accepted as normal. At times, it seems nearly impossible. There is a very logical reason why the statistics manual shows "no known cause" for some of these conditions.

The discoveries of the quantum entanglement only shows proof of just how much is still not understood, as there is still no production device being built on such knowledge to detect if or if not any kind of quantum entanglement has on the brain. Some may see a path to a cure.

reply to post by Bedlam


Hi Bedlam, thank you for your thoughts. No, my son is not stable at the moment.

Here is a little bit of background info. He is 13 and his case is very complicated.

He has Autism, lower functioning than Aspergers, and recently received the additional diagnosis of Schizo-affective disorder. For 3 years his symptoms have been moving in that direction. Mainly, very poor reality testing and he has auditory hallucinations. (he hears sounds such as animals barking, cats, and hears voices calling his name. The voices never tell him to harm anyone just call his name.

I'm going to take a jump here and assume you know a little about psych. meds. Your analysis is correct in that you often have to change up medicine.

currently he is on Abilify, Resperidal, to manage his psychotic symptoms.

We finally reached the point where meds alone are not enough. We are currently awaiting and long term admission 4-6 months at a local childrens hospital. However, Insurance is denying and we are embroiled in a major
battle and have been for 4 months.

Any insight you have would be greatly appreciated. I am very pleased to see "You Get It"!!

Thanks,

Pax

creative schizophrenics? mozart heard music before he wrote it down, so did jimi hendrix. people play videogames to cope with a mundane existance. not really creative but still they have their mind going on a trip of somekind. people do say i'm a creative type but us creative people are creative only when we're not being judged if we can perform under judgement, then were mere puppets to entertain people. the fact that people with high creativity have the dopemine levels of a schizophrenic proves once again that insane crazy are more fun, interesting, and creative. so before you judge the fellow talking to himself next to you think of your medeochrity and his genius. i will not read this thread any further for these are waking thoughts of mine. rationality doesn't fire like the rest of my sinapses they take a while to get going

This thread has a whole lot of nonsense in it. Pax is dead on. I personally went through a psychotic stage. It was HORRIBLE. Just a little background information to give you an idea where I'm coming from:

I was highly intelligent growing up. Went to school once or twice a week, did all the assignments in an isolated box, then would skip out again to enjoy life...aced state tests, etc..

Then I had my first psychotic break. I can't really pinpoint it. It went from depression and mania, to agitation, paranoia, and small delusions, to auditory and visual hallucinations, insomnia, and waves of nervous breakdowns.

It's biochemical, guy. All of the systems (physical, emotional, intellectual, and spiritual) overlap, but you need a strong physical root to weather everything life provides. I went from being highly intelligent, to a mix of bizarre connections eccentric, and utterly depressed dimwit. My memory went to complete crapola, and I could barely remember the names of people I'd seen hundreds of times.

Even people who seem to (at one point in time) have a grasp on the world and a high capability to focus and reason can become utterly delusional. I do agree that creativity and madness are interlinked. Heck, my own definition for creativity is madness put to good use. The problem with delusional people is they don't realize their only making up bizarre connections, and they don't really make sense.

I changed my diet around, fed my gut right, and take high doses of nutrients to treat the beast inside. I'd say I'm over 90% recovered. The only thing which could be considered a delusion that I still hold onto is the overwhelming sense of despair, which comes from (erroneously??) intuiting that civilization will collapse sometime this century.