Socialism is a disease! drinkingwithbob

Originally posted by 12GaugePermissionSlip

Please explain how free market capitalism will feed the elderly, the sick, and children.

With social programs created and paid for by taxes on jobs and companies made possible by captialism. But when captialism is trashed by leftwingers money for such programs goes south with the compaines that go bankrupt from leftwing buracracy and over taxation. You can't have apple pie if you cut down the apple tree.

Originally posted by daskakik

And you still didn't offer a single example of a long lived free market,

There is none, the left distroys free markets because free markets work and make the left look bad. the old saying that all good things must come to and end is true. So sad.

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by daskakik

 

1776-1913

I highly doubt that it was a real free market past 1777.

After Independence, American corporations, like the British companies before them, were chartered to perform specific public functions -- digging canals, building bridges. Their charters lasted between 10 and 40 years, often requiring the termination of the corporation on completion of a specific task, setting limits on commercial interests and prohibiting any corporate participation in the political process.

A short history of corporations

Granted they did not have the same political clout that present day corporation hold but I'm sure a kickback or two would not have been unheard of.
[edit on 19-5-2010 by daskakik]

[edit on 19-5-2010 by daskakik]

Originally posted by gdeed

Originally posted by daskakik

And you still didn't offer a single example of a long lived free market,

There is none, the left distroys free markets because free markets work and make the left look bad.

the old saying that all good things must come to and end is true. So sad.

Free markets work and that is why they don't exist? That has got to be the saddest excuse for a failing system that I have ever heard.

Maybe the USSR could say that communism was working so well that capitalist corporations could not stand the shame and decided to destroy their system.

[edit on 19-5-2010 by daskakik]

Originally posted by 12GaugePermissionSlip

Originally posted by gdeed

Originally posted by 12GaugePermissionSlip

Again I ask, What of the elderly, the sick, and the CHILDREN? How would they be cared for if not from the rest of society? Do you have the answer?

Their only hope is with capitalism. Socialism and comunism only creates more and more sad cases. Free market is the only solution, there is no other.

Please explain how free market capitalism will feed the elderly, the sick, and children.

It does so a hell of a lot better than state directed socialism that's for sure.

Prior to the days of socialist security, the elderly did not die homeless in the streets begging for handouts.

Prior to the days of medicaid, children were not dieing in the streets of disease.

However when we look at the Soviet Union during these same periods, millions upon millions died of starvation because the State collectivized agriculture. The same is true of China. In fact, China wiped out tens of millions with its collectivization measures.

No such mass famines have occured in the US primarily because agriculture has remained in the hands of private industry. Although the government has been massively increasing its dominance over this sector. Eventually we will see starvation in America if the government keeps intervening in the markets.

Take ethanol mandates for example. America is burning a tremendous amount of its corn crops in its gas tanks, which massively drives up the cost of almost all foods.

Corn is used as feed for cattle
Corn syrup is used as sweetener in nearly everything
Corn is used in cereals
Corn is eaten on its own

Starvation is traditionally how governments commit mass murder of their populations. The whole genocide thing pales in comparison to the number of people governments have killed due to market interventions.

reply to post by 12GaugePermissionSlip

Please explain how free market capitalism will feed the elderly, the sick, and children.

So you believe the only way these people have ever been and can be taken care of is by stealing the substance of others against thier will and giving to these people?... Sigh!

Capitalism is nearing an end.

Uhm you got that backward son, capitalism ended decades ago at the least. What is nearing an end is socialism in all it various forms and soon all the socialists ignorance will be coming face to face with reality and suddenly find themselves completely responsible for themselves instead of relying on government theft to sustain thier lifestyle!

[edit on 19-5-2010 by hawkiye]

reply to post by mnemeth1


Your post was excellent except this part:

Take ethanol mandates for example. America is burning a tremendous amount of its corn crops in its gas tanks, which massively drives up the cost of almost all foods. Corn is used as feed for cattle Corn syrup is used as sweetener in nearly everything Corn is used in cereals Corn is eaten on its own

Here is the truth:

In terms of corn growth, corn only utilized ~8% of arable farmland, about 17% of the prime land, in the U.S. However, the reason so much corn is grown is to support the cattle industry and now the food industry in general (sugar from corn is now used in many of our soft drinks and other food products). In fact, the reason the U.S. ethanol industry uses corn is because for years, due to government subsidies, farmers have been growing more corn than we know what to do with. Yes, ethanol production in the United States began using corn as an answer for the overproduction. Otherwise, much of the U.S. ethanol would be grown using much more efficient crops and crops that don’t have subsidies. You can’t forget that the byproduct of producing ethanol still leaves us with DDGS, which can effectively feed many animals

www.permaculture.com...

The byproduct of ethanol production using corn or grains is actually a better feed then before distillation and animals actually put on 20% more meat eating it then if they eat it before the distillation process because it is higher in protein.




[edit on 19-5-2010 by hawkiye]

reply to post by Misoir


I have family In Norway and am of Norwegian descent. That being said Norway has many social services but IS NOT a socialist country by any stretch my friend. They also are not problem free as many of the folks there would tell you.

Edit for S&G.

[edit on 19-5-2010 by Redwookieaz]

[edit on 19-5-2010 by Redwookieaz]

reply to post by hawkiye


I would say that makes my point for me.

While you seem to think its great that the process produces good cattle feed, what you are missing is that the bulk of the product is burned needlessly in our gas tanks.

If there were no ethanol mandates, farmers certainly wouldn't be wasting the resources to ferment grains before feeding them to the cows. This would be a huge unnecessary cost to the farmers. This additional cost is passed on to you, the consumer.

We also need to consider the effects of subsidization, which is definitely not as bad as government trying to run an industry directly, but still bad.

Consider that because government is subsidizing farmers to grown corn, the money that is handed to these farmers must first be taken from consumers at gun point.

What would those consumers be spending that money on if government had not confiscated it at gun point to give to farmers?

If we didn't have subsidization or ethanol mandates, what would the real price of corn be? Because farmers are subsidized to grow corn, we have an over-abundance of it. Thus, ethanol mandates were created because the government didn't want the excess to go to waste.

But now we have created multiple forms of waste because of this government intervention.

Consumers are paying more at the pump for gas because of the ethanol mandates. Consumers are paying more in taxes because of corn subsidies. Farmers are growing excess amounts of corn for no good reason. Consumers are paying more in auto maintenance costs because of burning ethanol. The cost of all goods is increased because ethanol is more expensive than gas so transportation costs are increased across the board.

The list of problems created by the ethanol / corn subsidies are nearly endless.

I could go on and on and on and on.



[edit on 19-5-2010 by mnemeth1]

reply to post by mnemeth1



You should do some research almost every negative thing you have heard about ethanol is a lie put out by big oil. It is more cost effective to use the grain twice then once and discard it out a cows ass.

Trust me nobodies starving because of ethanol production and the percentage of ethanol burned in American cars is insignificant in the scheme of things. Brazil uses over 50% ethanol as thier fuel only uses 1-2% of thier farmland to produce it and IMPORT ZERO OIL!

You can start at the link I gave you, his book is well researched and cited and he also he has been at it producing and teaching how to make it since the 80's

Many of those farmers would have dried up and blown away if not for some demand for ethanol and the only reason incentives are needed is so the politically connected heavily subsidized oil industry doesn't destroy ethanol production all together.

Ethanol production could save our economy put farmers back to work along with all the means of production and distribution chain and also the feed market. The problem is what little we produce today is set up like the gasoline model with huge central production facilities and then needs to be trucked across the country. My state has one of the largest plants in the country but none of it is sold in the state. Figure that out. With Ethanol since it can be grown nearly anywhere even using mesquite in arid deserts we could have smaller regional plants all across the country and make better use of the grains and the by products. Some of those big plants throw away the byproduct rather then truck i back to the farms. If regional plants are near the farms then everyone benefits.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 19-5-2010 by hawkiye]

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by mnemeth1

 

You should do some research almost every negative thing you have heard about ethanol is a lie put out by big oil. It is more cost effective to use the grain twice then once and discard it out a cows ass.

Trust me nobodies starving because of ethanol production and the percentage of ethanol burned in American cars is insignificant in the scheme of things. Brazil uses over 50% ethanol as thier fuel only uses 1-2% of thier farmland to produce it and IMPORT ZERO OIL!

You can start at the link I gave you, his book is well researched and cited and he also he has been at it producing and teaching how to make it since the 80's

Many of those farmers would have dried up and blown away if not for some demand for ethanol and the only reason incentives are needed is so the politically connected heavily subsidized oil industry doesn't destroy ethanol production all together.

Ethanol production could save our economy put farmers back to work along with all the means of production and distribution chain and also the feed market. The problem is what little we produce today is set up like the gasoline model with huge central production facilities and then needs to be trucked across the country. My state has one of the largest plants in the country but none of it is sold in the state. Figure that out. With Ethanol since it can be grown nearly anywhere even using mesquite in arid deserts we could have smaller regional plants all across the country and make better use of the grains and the by products. Some of those big plants throw away the byproduct rather then truck i back to the farms. If regional plants are near the farms then everyone benefits.

Do you know how I know everything you said a baloney?

Because if it were as good as you say it is, government wouldn't need to point a gun at people's heads in order to ram it down their throats.

In a free market, if something is cheaper, more cost effective, and more efficient, people will naturally adopt it without the need for government force.

Everything you just said completely ignores the subsidies corn and ethanol receive. It is only because corn and ethanol production are subsidized that the math works out in favor of ethanol as you so claim.



[edit on 19-5-2010 by mnemeth1]

reply to post by hawkiye


I'd have to side with you on this one hawkiye. Taking into account that alot of people blame high fructose corn syrup for the weight problem in the states I would say that it may be a better option to burn it in your car instead of having it hanging off of you.

[edit on 19-5-2010 by daskakik]

Originally posted by Misoir
reply to post by Redwookieaz

 

NORWAY

They aren't in a recession, they have below 1 per 100,000 murders, very low corruption, economic freedom, one of the highest press freedom, one of the most democratic, an income of $70,000, a poverty rate of 4%, an unemployment rate of 3%, and one of the lowest income inequalities.

[edit on 5/19/10 by Misoir]

Main industries - petroleum and natural gas, food processing, shipbuilding, pulp and paper products, metals, chemicals, timber, mining, textiles, fishing -

Most of Norway's wealth is due to Oil and Gas which will soon be depleted. Pulp and paper products rely on timber and produces lots of pollution. They are overfishing their waters also.

Their entire GDP is only about 250 billion and they only have couple of million workers (2.6 million in 2009)

You may as well compare an ant to an elephant. The old apples and oranges saying applies here strongly. Try using them as an analogy in a Term Paper and see how fast you fail the course. Just saying.

Originally posted by Dermo
Lol.. That guy is a tosser..

Where do people like that get their logic?

He's like Glen Beck with the letters thing..

What a dumbass..

makes perfect sense to be you socialist brit.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
Just sounds like your average ignorant ATS rant to me.
Another American who fails to understand Socialism, nothing new here.

Because Socialism is working .. so so well for you folks in Europe? Why, I hear the most Socialist of the Socialist states, Greece, is living quite happily at the moment. I know Europeans are bred to lick the hand that feeds them, but I can only hope through this crisis they are bestowed with a sense of self purpose and responsibility and learn to shy away from Government hand outs in exchange for illusions of safety and freedom.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Because Socialism is working .. so so well for you folks in Europe?

It is in Belgium, where i live.
blaming the crisis in Greece on "socialism!!!" is just silly.

I know Europeans are bred to lick the hand that feeds them

How "edgy" of you that you "know" that...., just like I know all Americans are a bunch of power hungry capitalist pigs (sarcasm)

Generalisations like those above will bring yo nothing but ridicule

Let me ask you, have you ever set foot in a European (socialist) country?



[edit on 20-5-2010 by XyZeR]

Another Socialism is Bad, Capitalism is Good thread ....... surprise, surprise! ....... and from an American ...... no surprise there!

Are the majority of Americans really as ignorant as some members on ATS make themselves out to be?

Lets be realistic about this. Lets compare lifestyles from the US, UK and other countries? Then we may see how each 'system' pans out.

Originally posted by Wotan
Another Socialism is Bad, Capitalism is Good thread ....... surprise, surprise! ....... and from an American ...... no surprise there!

Are the majority of Americans really as ignorant as some members on ATS make themselves out to be?

Lets be realistic about this. Lets compare lifestyles from the US, UK and other countries? Then we may see how each 'system' pans out.

Are the majority of socialists inside The United States of America, and outside of that nation so ignorant that they smugly believe all they have to do is declare any opposition to socialism as ignorant without offering one scintilla of support for their argument?

Let's be realistic about this, if socialism is so great, surely the socialists could offer up edifying information to explain why rather than attack those who oppose it as being ignorant without offering any informed reason why.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


I have just offered to compare different countries and lifestyles to validate claims from both sides or did you miss that part of my post?

Originally posted by Wotan
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

I have just offered to compare different countries and lifestyles to validate claims from both sides or did you miss that part of my post?

The video in this thread all ready compared Greece and their Panhellenic Socialist Movement to the U.S., and found it wanting. This fact has been ignored by you socialists, and for good reason. So let's compare Greece to the United States. Who is demanding a bail out?