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Socialism is a disease! drinkingwithbob

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posted on May, 19 2010 @ 02:03 PM
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The figures i listed included total american debt, and are actually quite dated from an article by Al Martin – former contributor to the Presidential Council of Economic Advisors. He included total credit market debt as well to get a more accurate measure of the true scale that americans are in debt.

More recently, the real gdp for 09 was 13 trillion, and the US TOTAL debt, as calculated on the debt clock, was 55.75 trillion (and climbing quickly, as the debt clock does), then we have an effective debt to gdp ratio of pretty epic proportions.




posted on May, 19 2010 @ 02:08 PM
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Originally posted by 12GaugePermissionSlip




Speaking of the "hand that feeds them", did you check that link above I left about hunger in the US? It is getting worse and it involves CHILDREN! "The number of children living in households where there were shortages of food at times, rose by nearly one-third to 17 million." Are they abusing freedom?


That is because more and more people have become depended on free food, free housing and free everything. And fewer people are wanting to do the work. Why work when your efforts are taxed and taxed and taxed. Better to sit back and live off those fools that make the money.



Capitalism is nearing an end.


When capitalism goes away and many many leftwingers want it to, those numbers of starving children you speak of will go way way way up and continue to go up until the machinery that creates money to feed people with, like capitalism, comes back.

Socialism and communism only create one thing, poor people. And they do that very well.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 02:09 PM
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The problem with unregulated free market, is that eventually one person or group ends up with everything. Unregulated free market is fine until one group gets far enough ahead that they can use guns to enforce their products, much as the robber barons did in middle ages europe, and the mafia in contemporary italy. If you think this would not be the case with american corporations i simply encourage you to look at the abuses these corporations perpetrate upon local populations in areas without regulation.

The list of abuses through sweat shops, economic espionage, and environmental destruction that groups such as nike, apple, exxon, etc perpetrate through much of south america, africa, and china are extreme and grotesque. It is the normal end result of so much money and power being consolidated in the hands of a corporate entity with no value other than greed and profit.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 02:11 PM
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reply to post by pexx421
 


Okay, you are bringing citizen debt into the picture, not the government alone figure.

I was wondering where you were getting it from.

The number I quoted does not include the Norwegian citizens debt, only the government.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by pexx421
 


Where is their government?

Where is your government?

I guess the government is not doing their work are they? Do you think the government will change if a more socialist system is set up?

People keep missing the point. The government is the strong arm of the corporations. The corporations cannot do this with out the complicit nature of the government. PERIOD!



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by hawkiye

There are examples of socialism that work like the Amish


The Amish, like socialism and communism depend on some one else to pay for the big ticket items like military and infrastructure.

Without military and infrastructure you have third world contries where people eat each other to survive like in many african countries.

The Amish could not servive without Capitalism all around them. Same is true with socialism, communism and wealfarism.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 02:18 PM
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Originally posted by hawkiye
I don't agree with you that free markets allow markets to be controlled. You are not separating the control that big corps have to today from them actually having to compete instead of having thier market protected by government because they are politically connected.

The reason these corps became so big is because they used their political connections to compete unfairly in the markets and it is almost impossible for new start ups to get started much less compete because of the mountains of regulations and red tape they need to go through.

If you have a true free market where government doe not intervene the market would decide who is the best by the product or service they choose to buy and can vote with thier feet or wallets.


I keep seeing this idea thrown out over and over by proponents of free markets but I believe it is a pipe dream. Free markets will only work if people play fair.

Now what happens when someone with a mindset that brought about the famous quote "Buy when blood is running in the streets" comes on the scene.

The naivete of free market proponents is in thinking that the free market will be free of corruption. Not just government but also backroom agreements to fix prices, create false shortages to manipulate prices or drive a competitor out of business.

Then you have criminals which can force wholesale clients to remain loyal because "it's in their best interest" or maybe they just don't make too much noise if a truckload of merch goes missing every now and then.

These things happen in the real world. Maybe not in a smallscale market. Not between the shop owners on main street but move up a notch and you will find some kind of manipulation going on.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by daskakik


I keep seeing this idea thrown out over and over by proponents of free markets but I believe it is a pipe dream. Free markets will only work if people play fair.


Socialists and communists have no incentive to "ever" play fair. Leftwingers have it good while they live in free market countries. When they live in leftwing countries they live like cattle. Do you think that is fair?



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by pexx421
The problem with unregulated free market, is that eventually one person or group ends up with everything.


False assumption.

First off, to have a free market, one must not have a government.

Let us look at what a free market entails.

1. A market choice of currency
Do we have that? No, we do not. If a private corporation tried to issue its own currency, like the Liberty Dollar (which was a gold backed private currency), the federal government will prosecute them and the courts will not uphold payment in said currency.

2. Market set interest rates.
Do we have that? No, we do not. We have a cartel of private bankers (the federal reserve system) that forces interest rates down artificially and manipulates currency values. This distortion of interest rates results in poor long term investment decisions and a lack of capital savings.

3. No market regulations.
Do we have that? No, we do not. The stack of regulations dealing with banking, capital management, accounting, and labor are so vast that even professional lawyers have to specialize in a specific field just to understand one aspect of them all.

4. No government intervention or distortions through spending.
Do we have that? No, we do not. Currently the government is responsible for nearly 50% of all spending in America. Because the government does not make is decisions based on market needs, but on political desires, this results in a massive misallocation of resources. Things are produced for government use, not for private use. - this creates massive market distortions.

5. Extremely low or non-existent taxes
Do we have that? No, we do not. In order to have a free market, individual wage earners must be allowed to keep what they earn. Taxes impact the profit motive and discourage investment/hard work. People do not earn enough to invest because a huge portion of their pay is confiscated through the tax system.

6. No bailouts, no anti-competitive regulations.
Do we have that? No, we do not. In order to have a free market, corporations must EXPECT that they will go bankrupt if they make bad business decisions. Currently, uncompetitive corporations and corporations that made bad business decisions are being bailed out at tax payer expense. This creates what economists call "moral hazard". That is to say, companies will behave recklessly because they know uncle Sam will bail them out.



So in summary, quit trying to compare what we have now to what a free market results in.

We do not have free markets in America.


[edit on 19-5-2010 by mnemeth1]



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by gdeed
Socialists and communists have no incentive to "ever" play fair. Leftwingers have it good while they live in free market countries. When they live in leftwing countries they live like cattle. Do you think that is fair?


Sorry if there was a point in there I missed it. FYI I am not addressing socialism but the idea that a large free market can remain free of manipulation for any real amount of time.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 03:04 PM
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reply to post by gdeed
 





That is because more and more people have become depended on free food, free housing and free everything.


Maybe that's because at one time one man's income could afford all the family's needs and wants, and now it takes one man working two jobs and the wife working a job just to eat.




And fewer people are wanting to do the work.


Got any proof? Any stats, facts, numbers?




Why work when your efforts are taxed and taxed and taxed.


Oh, so give up because you have to pay taxes. If you can't have all the cake at your berfday party then you just won't have a party. I wish you could somehow take people that think this way off taxes completely then ban them from all roads, schools, police and fire protection, FDA protection, EPA protection, military protection, and public parks. Just go. Take your precious tax money and go take care of yourself, by yourself.



Better to sit back and live off those fools that make the money.


That maybe your position, but most people don't like living on just some government hand out. Do you believe that people on welfare are just living it up? Are they taking their welfare checks and buying cars, boats and stock in Apple? Are they cashing in their food stamps and dining at Dolce? Are their social security checks going for that trip around Europe they have always dreamed of? Does their project housing got a pool? a multi-car garage? 10,000 Sq. Ft? or even curtains?

HELL to the NO!

Again I ask, What of the elderly, the sick, and the CHILDREN? How would they be cared for if not from the rest of society? Do you have the answer?



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by 12GaugePermissionSlip

Again I ask, What of the elderly, the sick, and the CHILDREN? How would they be cared for if not from the rest of society? Do you have the answer?


Their only hope is with capitalism. Socialism and comunism only creates more and more sad cases. Free market is the only solution, there is no other. America has lost its way and is doing what all the other socialist countries have falled at. How dumb is that?



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by gdeed
Free market is the only solution, there is no other. America has lost its way and is doing what all the other socialist countries have falled at. How dumb is that?


Free markets don't exist. Just look at america today. Right it isn't a free market because free markets always end up being manipulated. It always happens. Show me one free market (on a national level) that has survived mans greed.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 03:17 PM
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Originally posted by daskakik
FYI I am not addressing socialism but the idea that a large free market can remain free of manipulation for any real amount of time.


That would be too good, but no, people lose their way and decide socialism is better and the heck with what worked in the past, lets change the free market and experiement with other failed leftwing systemts.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 03:21 PM
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Originally posted by gdeed
That would be too good, but no, people lose their way and decide socialism is better and the heck with what worked in the past, lets change the free market and experiement with other failed leftwing systemts.


People don't lose their way. The rich and powerful steer them away so that they can get richer and gain more power ending in an oligarchy. Just like many nations on this planet.

[edit on 19-5-2010 by daskakik]

[edit on 19-5-2010 by daskakik]



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 03:23 PM
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Originally posted by gdeed

Originally posted by 12GaugePermissionSlip

Again I ask, What of the elderly, the sick, and the CHILDREN? How would they be cared for if not from the rest of society? Do you have the answer?


Their only hope is with capitalism. Socialism and comunism only creates more and more sad cases. Free market is the only solution, there is no other.


Please explain how free market capitalism will feed the elderly, the sick, and children.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by gdeed
Free market is the only solution, there is no other. America has lost its way and is doing what all the other socialist countries have falled at. How dumb is that?


Free markets don't exist. Just look at america today. Right it isn't a free market because free markets always end up being manipulated. It always happens. Show me one free market (on a national level) that has survived mans greed.


Greed has put food on people's table via jobs, oportunities, and wealfare for those not interested in oportunities and jobs.

Feel good do good types, have created more poverty in this world than greed. You can tax the money greed creates, you can't tax the pie in the sky mentality of the leftwing mindset, which only creates poverty.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by gdeed
Greed has put food on people's table via jobs, oportunities, and wealfare for those not interested in oportunities and jobs.

Feel good do good types, have created more poverty in this world than greed. You can tax the money greed creates, you can't tax the pie in the sky mentality of the leftwing mindset, which only creates poverty.


We are not talking about greed in the same context. When I say greed I mean the basic human emotion not "greed" used as a way to express the drive behind capitalism and therefore "greed = capitalism".

And you still didn't offer a single example of a long lived free market,

[edit on 19-5-2010 by daskakik]



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 03:49 PM
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This man really needs a spot on a talk-show or something. You cant just have the ability to rip like that and not get paid for it.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 03:53 PM
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reply to post by daskakik
 


1776-1913

Include with that the black markets in the USSR.

Black markets in US of A
.....Illicit Drugs
.....Prostitution
.....Street Vendors
.....Construction industry in California-the under the table
.....Congress and the Lobbyist for Corporations
.....Federal Reserve


Need more?


[edit on 5/19/2010 by endisnighe]



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