Burka Rage -- Female Lawyer Rips Veil off Muslim woman

Originally posted by MarrsAttax

Originally posted by LordBucket
reply to post by Jadette

 

The burqa is a symbol of slavery. It's not 'fashion'. It's oppression.

Meanwhile, in an alternate dimension, an oppressed American woman tourist visiting africa had her blouse torn from her body by topless tribeswomen.

Everyone needs to get naked!

When in Rome.....

Seriously, I always expect to have to follow cultural norms to some extent when I go to other countries and I see no reason why it shouldn't be a reciprocal expectation. But I'm as concerned about the security issue of anyone dressing up in full disguise (aka burqa or any other disguise) and entering a bank, for example, as I am about general cultural conformity and sensitivity.

Burqa-Wearing Bandit Baffles Detectives

Authorities in North Carolina don't know whether they are looking for a man or a woman in the search for a burqa-wearing bandit who walked into a bank Tuesday and pointed a gun at a teller before exiting with a bag full of money.

Burka-wearing gunmen raid French bank

Two burka-wearing bank robbers have pulled off a heist near Paris using a handgun concealed beneath their full Islamic veil.

But as for going completely naked, that's another story. If God intended for us to go around naked, we'd be born that way.... wait a minute....

Sorry for my English as I am french speaking !
1/ you and everybody else do not live alone, we live in a society !! someone who dresses him/herself in a way that his/her face is completely or partly covered gives a signal to others that he wants to live out of society, hidden in a black ( !! ) prison, no contact with others ….. if this is your view of society then yeah … pitty evolution …
2/ you may not compare punks or other special groups to burka wearing people : you still can see the face of them !!!!
3/ if you go to a islamic country, you must follow the rules over there or you get jailed. When they come here they must follow OUR rules, we do not want burkas in our streets, put it on in your home ok but do not force us to look at Middle Age fanatics
4/ I also do not want to see naked people in the streets, it is not done, well the burka is NOT DONE also at ours.
5/ there is surely a security reason : I want to see who is standing next to me or faces me, everybody can put on a mask then and walk around like spiderman or Hannibal Lekter : have a nice day in asylum !!!
There is a time for carnaval ok, but after that we go back to real life and real life is not hidden life : why do you think gangsters put nylons over their head ??
6/ Stop the islamisation of our countries, the french revolution was a big step forwards, let us not go back to the darkest foolish times of Middle Age.
7/ and then the go swim with their burkas on ??? on special hours, they must have all kind of exceptions ?? no way, no passar !! halal special in schools, etc ... where do we go, where do we stop that evolution ?
8/ burka is frightening - you just want to cry : hey stupid, why do you hide ?? look at me if you dare !!

First of all, I disagree with the ripping off of the burqa. IMO, that is assault. But I would also like to take a moment to address the posts about respecting the burqa as a personal or religious choice.

Yes and no. Many western nations are secular. Although they may have a religious majority percent of the population and laws granting religious freedom, those expressions cannot be at odds with other social norms, laws, and human rights.

For instance, some religions allow for multiple wives but the secular laws prohibit bigamy. Some religions call for the beating of wives but secular laws prohibit domestic abuse. Some religions call for the stoning of homosexuals and adulterers but secular laws protect against cruel and unusual punishment. Etc.

The reason I cannot condone the burqa as 'respecting culture' is because of what it represents. To see it defended as 'choice' is a bit silly. Many are either forced to wear it or conditioned to do so willingly. It is archaic no matter how you roll the dice.

I cannot 'respect culture' when I read the koran instructing husbands on how to beat their wives. I cannot 'respect culture' when women are told their bodies are so sinful and tempting that they have to walk around in a 'curtain' (part of the Persian translation root for parts of the coverings). I cannot 'respect culture' if that culture consists of marrying prepubescent children to adults, etc.

Although the burqa may not be as severe as my above examples, it is still basically saying *this* segment of the population needs to be behind a 'cloth shield.' I strongly believe women need to stick together and say 'Not in my world' when it comes to wearing the burqa. One of us behind the cloth is all of us behind the cloth, IMO. It's not 'religious preference' (something I am HUGE in defending). It's oppression. And I cannot condone 'oppression' under the guise of 'respecting culture' or religious freedom because it is not freedom.

Originally posted by niteboy82You have zero right to control what other people do with their lives, by you doing such a thing you would be no different from the very oppressors you claim to fight.

No, the French and every other European country has the right to their own culture, intact as it has been for countless centuries. As does the Middle East, Asia and everywhere else. What you're seeing is people sick and tired of watching their country rot from the inside out.

Mass immigration doesn't work. Despite how un-politically correct it sounds, it just doesn't.


**Fixed broken quote**



[edit on 19-5-2010 by Frontkjemper]

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
The reason I "cant win this one" is because you are too stubborn to admit you are wrong.

The lawyer attacked first.

An argument followed during which the older woman is said to have ripped the veil off, before the Muslim woman allegedly punched her.

Originally posted by Wayne60
I can't help but wonder what the people who work in banks think when they see someone walk in with their heads completely wrapped up?

My thoughts exactly. Perhaps someone should start a feel-good church requiring all members to wear complete happy face masks around outsiders. Would that fly? NO We need to be able to identify people, and it cannot be done with only their eyes showing.
This said, the lawyer clearly should be charged with assault. What she did was wrong. Her reason for doing it, a gray area until laws are changed. I support (as much as I can as an outsider) the attempts in France for a change, though.

Originally posted by Dock9
Fine if muslim women want to go around draped in something akin to a large bedspread or tablecloth --- in their own countries

Who made you the fashion police? What makes you think you have the right to decide what other people wear?

Outlawing Muslim clothing would definitely be against the US Constitution, so I hope nothing like that happens here.

Originally posted by Jadette
And yes, if a saw a woman walking down the street in chains, I'd yank them off too, even if that's what she thought she wanted to wear.

But you have NO RIGHT to do that! Doesn't it bother you that you would be TOTALLY infringing on another's personal right of expression?

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Well, freedom is freedom, and the lawyer is free to express her displeasure.

Not by physical battery. She is not free to lay her hands on another person and start ripping her clothes off.

I can't believe some of the opinions in this thread. I'm at a loss.

Originally posted by AshleyD
To see it defended as 'choice' is a bit silly. Many are either forced to wear it or conditioned to do so willingly. It is archaic no matter how you roll the dice.

That doesn't matter, it's still her choice. If you were in a foreign country, wearing a cross around your neck or a t-shirt that said, "I love Jesus", and someone in that country determined that you were only wearing it because you had been "conditioned" to do so by a repressive religious society, it would STILL be your choice, no?

I strongly believe women need to stick together and say 'Not in my world' when it comes to wearing the burqa.

What if she doesn't WANT to stick together with you? I certainly don't stick together with you on that. I'm sorry, it's Western-centric to think that we have it right and other country's traditions and clothing are wrong.

The burqa represents the oppression of women to you, but to her, it may represent her love of her religion. HER EXPRESSION OF RELIGION. And you think we need to stick together to get rid of that? I can't believe it.

How do you know it's not religious preference to her? It's hypocritical to the extreme to say that you are HUGE in defending religious preference, but only when it conforms to your context.

The lawyer was wrong in this situation. It doesn't matter WHAT the woman had on. If it was a coat or hat or glasses or whatever, the lawyer had NO RIGHT to attack the woman physically.

Originally posted by Nammu
reply to post by pro-all

 

Burka is not just a piece of clothing. Its more in the category of hooded kkk members that instil fear in both kids and adults alike. Do you also realize that the burka is a traditional arab wear and has nothing to do with islam? I have seen these arab holiday makers here in europe, a man in t-shirt with his three women struggling in their burkas. Freedom should not mean tolerating man's inhumanity to women.

Look, i don't agree with burqas. I know the arguments against them. I'm a woman so you don't need to explain the oppressionistic symbolism they portray.

But i also don't see why you removing a woman's freedom to wear an item of clothing if she so chooses is any better than a man forcing her to wear it in the first place.

You are either on the side of freedom, or the side of control. You've got it all backwards. You are on the side of control.

If you are for freedom then you will see that banning them is not the answer because you are removing the freedom of choice.

If you are for control then you want to control what people wear. Just like the bad husband does.

What side are you on?

This coming from a woman is rather shocking. Quite in line with my belief that women in islam are the greatest obstacle to freedom since the status quo favours them. The men do the shopping for them. All they do is sit at home and get fatter.

Whether you call it freedom or control means very little. The truth is 99% of muslim women are forced to wear the burka by their husbands. No god decreed this or that a only a husband should see his wife's hair. I personally cannot find any justification to subject a woman to such physical and mental agony in the name of religion. Burka belongs in the stone age.

reply to post by pro-all

Whether you call it freedom or control means very little

I disagree. It means everything in this discussion. You see their control as bad and your control as good. They see your control as bad and theirs as good. It's two sides of the same coin.

Give the woman the freedom to choose. Give them the freedom to live. We need to empower them not control them. Then hopefully they'll make the right choice and ditch the burqa themselves without us having to make their decisions for them.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
I have no problem at all understanding liberty or freedom.

I disagree. If you only support the freedoms of viewpoints with which you agree, that's no freedom at all.

Originally posted by airspoon
Is it not the Catholic Christian church that likes to molest little boys? So, now are all Catholics child molesters or pedophiles?

Excellent point! Would the people in this thread who are supporting the lawyer also support someone ripping the cassock off the man because of what some other priests represent? Of COURSE not! That's a good CHRISTIAN dress. Not a Nasty Muslim dress. I can't believe the hypocrisy in this thread!

Originally posted by LordBucket
Meanwhile, in an alternate dimension, an oppressed American woman tourist visiting africa had her blouse torn from her body by topless tribeswomen. This symbol of her slavery was then burned, as it should be. The women who stripped her naked later commented, "American women are so ignorant they don't understand how barbaric the custom of hiding a woman's breasts is. They are a natural part of our body, and are for the care and feeding of children. To cover them is to deny our maternal nature, and an abomination."

EXCELLENT! An absolute perfect example! Thank you! Brilliant! It's good to see that at least SOME people in this thread still maintain the ability to see things from a perspective other than their own.

Originally posted by Sunlionspirit
someone who dresses him/herself in a way that his/her face is completely or partly covered gives a signal to others that he wants to live out of society,

That is just your opinion. They are not giving you any kind of signal. They are following their religion. If someone wears a mask or has hair that covers their face, are they giving you a signal or expressing themselves?

When they come here they must follow OUR rules, we do not want burkas in our streets, put it on in your home ok but do not force us to look at Middle Age fanatics

But do citizens have the right to enforce these rules? Is the burqa actually banned by law? Shouldn't someone contact the police if they see a burqa instead of taking the law into their own hands?

Originally posted by Nammu
Give the woman the freedom to choose. Give them the freedom to live. We need to empower them not control them. Then hopefully they'll make the right choice and ditch the burqa themselves without us having to make their decisions for them.

Exactly! Making the choice for her is as bad as those who supposedly "make" her wear the burqa in the first place! I can't believe people don't see that! The people here who would force this woman to wear what pleases THEIR eyes are as bad as her supposed oppressors who "make" her wear the burqa in the first place!

Ugh! I can't freaking believe the bigotry being expressed in this thread that's thinly veiled as concern for this Muslim woman. It's really sickening.

"Give the woman the freedom to choose. Give them the freedom to live. We need to empower them not control them. Then hopefully they'll make the right choice and ditch the burqa themselves without us having to make their decisions for them."

This is one of those arguments where no one gives an inch. Why not make it simple by asking the men who made the wearing of burka compulsory to just rescind the decision. Women had no voice in deciding about the burka. Give me one reason why a woman would want to embrace the burka. The only one I can think of is that a woman would want to avoid shyness which in itself is sick.




[edit on 19-5-2010 by pro-all]

reply to post by pro-all


Ah but you make the assumption that all woman are forced by oppressive men. Although some are you wrong to assume that all are. It's a cultural and traditional thing in many countries. If a woman wants to choose to wear it, then regardless of my opinions on the oppressive nature of it, she should be allowed to.

Really, unless a few burqa wearing women come onto this thread and speak for themselves the whole argument is pointless. We're just speaking for them and making assumptions. I can understand why they should be banned in places like banks or while driving. That is a different matter completely.

Originally posted by pro-all
Give me one reason why a woman would want to embrace the burka.

This woman CONVERTED to Islam. She knew full well what she was getting into. Why don't we ask THEM instead of making our assumptions?

Muslim Women say Veil is more about Religion than Oppression

While some Muslims consider it an expression of modesty and piety, others say such emphasis on the scarf as a religious symbol is overstated. And while some Americans recoil from the sight of any form of Muslim dress as a symbol of terrorism and aggression toward non-Muslims, many feminists, mostly American but some Muslim, invest the hijab with another kind of significance -- oppression of Muslim women.

That last assumption has been fed by television images of women in Afghanistan, shrouded in the burqa, being beaten for showing an ankle or part of their face. And while Muslim men also are required to dress modestly -- with a turban or a cap, and flowing garments -- women's dress is seen as symbol of the greater restrictions they labor under in some Muslim countries.

"They are wrong," said Izdihar El-Hilal, a native of Syria who has lived in the Pittsburgh area for 27 years and is an American citizen. "This is my choice. I am not oppressed."

But y'all just go ahead and impose YOUR beliefs on others. That's nothing new.

The only one I can think of is that a woman would want to avoid shyness which in itself is sick.

YOUR judgment on her decision to wear a burqa is totally irrelevant.

I just wonder how many of you would support outlawing someone from wearing any of the following because they are "symbols of oppression":

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8422a72a48a1.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3800a5811da8.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e103f5baa32f.jpg[/atsimg]

ANYONE?

reply to post by Arbitrageur


The article makes it very clear that the lawyer ripped off the burka before she was hit.

An argument followed during which the older woman is said to have ripped the veil off, before the Muslim woman allegedly punched her.

Originally posted by niteboy82
reply to post by Jadette

 

You have zero right to control what other people do with their lives, by you doing such a thing you would be no different from the very oppressors you claim to fight. :shk:

---

If someone wants to walk around in green Jello, so be it. They aren't affecting my life, I see no reason to insert my beliefs into theirs.

Just like the Husband of the Muslim convert ! Treating his Spouse Like a Slave ! being Ordered this Concealment ! Fully Clothed Top to bottom !
is Zero Right ! to Control ! because of his Traditional Fear of Infidelity ! There is many Female Muslim's That Refuse to wear this Religious Fad !!! In the Old World !!! That is! Even the Catholic Religion Lightened up this kind of Garb!! on the The Nuns !

but if this Woman Chooses to wear this Black Blanket! and not because her FundaMENTAList husband God Allah! Help Her


Warning Please if you are Burka Muslim please do not watch! (Face and Wrist exposure! ) well a Censor Shown ! tho.. LOL
if not a Burka Muslim there is nothing to see here

Burka Woman Gone Wild!






[edit on 19-5-2010 by Wolfenz]

[edit on 19-5-2010 by Wolfenz]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by pro-all
Give me one reason why a woman would want to embrace the burka.

This woman CONVERTED to Islam. She knew full well what she was getting into. Why don't we ask THEM instead of making our assumptions?

Muslim Women say Veil is more about Religion than Oppression

While some Muslims consider it an expression of modesty and piety, others say such emphasis on the scarf as a religious symbol is overstated.

France isn't considering outlawing the scarf, which would be required by the Quran for Muslims (at a minimum, I think). It's the Burqa which is NOT required by the Quran for Muslims they have drafted legislation to ban. If it was just a scarf she was wearing, I don't think there would have been a problem. There's a big difference between a scarf and a burqa.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Thanks for having the guts to talk to me.

From my link:

Perhaps the most visible manifestation of a Muslim woman's faith, it goes by many names -- hijab, niqab, abaaya, burqa, chador. It can be anything from a simple scarf draped around the face and neck to a shawl, and, more rarely, at least in Pittsburgh, a full cloak or shroud that covers the head and everything, in fact, but the eyes.

And to be perfectly honest, my point isn't so much against keeping people from covering their faces. I don't think that's a bad idea for society's safety. But what REALLY bothers me about this thread is the people who say that BECAUSE this is a symbol of oppression TO THEM, that it's automatically a symbol of oppression to everyone and that the Muslim women aren't choosing to wear them.

Sarkozy made it clear that the upcoming law banning the burqa is NOT for reasons of safety, but because it supposedly detracts from the woman's dignity. And I think SHE should decide what makes her feel dignified or not. NOT the law. It just infuriates me. (duh!)

Sarkozy told cabinet ministers the government was "taking a path it knows to be difficult, but a path it knows to be just."

"We are an old nation united around a certain idea of human dignity, and in particular of a woman's dignity, around a certain idea of how to live together," Sarkozy said.

"The full veil that hides the face completely harms those values, which are so fundamental to us, so essential to the republican compact."

I'm sorry, that's like saying that gay marriage harms my marriage. Completely untrue and meaningless.

Source

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And to be perfectly honest, my point isn't so much against keeping people from covering their faces. I don't think that's a bad idea for society's safety. But what REALLY bothers me about this thread is the people who say that BECAUSE this is a symbol of oppression TO THEM, that it's automatically a symbol of oppression to everyone and that the Muslim women aren't choosing to wear them.

Hahaha, well as long as you don't bite, I can handle your verbal arguments.

If a man wears a turban and a woman wears a scarf I don't see how that's oppressive to women because both sexes are wearing some type of head covering. But again the burqa is another story as I'm not aware of the male equivalent for that, so perhaps it could be construed as a sign of oppression, however I stress that would not be true for everyone. My guess from seeing poll results about a variety of topics is that if you took a poll of Muslim women, some would find the burqa oppressive, and some wouldn't, but I would be interested to see what the percentages would be in that poll because I really don't know. If you asked them the same question about a scarf I would expect very few women to say that's oppressive.

And I agree with you about the face-covering issue for security reasons.

Originally posted by pro-all
Anybody who truely loves freedom should support a ban of this horrible dress.

oxy·mo·ron (äk′si môr′än′)

noun pl. oxymora -·mo′ra (-rə)
a figure of speech in which opposite or contradictory ideas or terms are combined (Ex.: thunderous silence, sweet sorrow)

Definition of Oxymoron

'nuff said

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
Hahaha, well as long as you don't bite, I can handle your verbal arguments.

Well, I DO bite, but only when invited.

And don't get me wrong. I definitely think the FORCED wearing of the burqa is sexist and oppressive. But that doesn't give me the right to dictate other women's attire. And I think the fact that women in Western society feel obligated to wear makeup, bras, tight clothes and high heels is ALSO oppressive. But I think it's wrong to tell them that they can't wear them because I think it's oppressive. It should be THEIR choice.

My guess from seeing poll results about a variety of topics is that if you took a poll of Muslim women, some would find the burqa oppressive, and some wouldn't, but I would be interested to see what the percentages would be in that poll because I really don't know.

But shouldn't the Muslim women who CHOOSE to wear a burqa be allowed to? These are single women, divorced women, businesswomen who CHOOSE to express their religious beliefs in this way. This ban (in France) is going to prohibit ALL women from wearing a burqa because it's seen as oppressive, whether the women think it is or not.