A cross or a tree

reply to post by DISRAELI


The greek word Stau-ros' translated recently as cross, originally implied an upright stake...The Imperial Bible-Dictionary: “The Greek word for cross, [stau·ros′], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.
The other word often translated to cross is xy'lon and a Greek-English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, defines this as meaning: “Wood cut and ready for use, firewood, timber, etc. . . . piece of wood, log, beam, post . . . cudgel, club . . . stake on which criminals were impaled . . . of live wood, tree.”

It ia a misconception that the romans went to the trouble to erect cross beams to hold up criminals sentenced to death...they were literaly hung on pikes or from standing trees. It is a more efficient way of execution in two ways. One, less material and labor. Secondly, a person dies from asphyxiation much faster when hung with their hands over their head, as opposed to to arms outstreached to ones sides...

But the most important thing to remember, is that the cross or ankh in various forms was used in worship in the ancient egyption and babylonish societies...its making its way into the christian belief system as an idol to be worn and honored is detesteble to our creator as any other form of idol worship that detracts from honoring Him alone.

After doing a little more research, another point to consider, yes in fact there were varying ways of hanging a person up, tieing, nailing, sometimes with crossbeams...
Jesus died in relatively short order of his being hung up...that is consistant with a non crossbeamed torture stake...

But here is an interesting Wiki article highlighting both sides of the debate, quotes scholors with differing veiwpoints..

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom

You have not established, with any certainty, that the Christian cross was derived from the ankh. A vague and incomplete resemblance of shape proves nothing.

Nothing in what you have said has eliminated the possibliity that the early Christians were genuinely intending their symbol to resemble the instrument on which Jesus died, based presumably on their awareness of what was normative in Roman practice.

As somebody pointed out earlier in the thread, what really matters is the fact that he died. What the early Christians were doing, when they adopted the cross, and what we need to be doing, is focussing on that fact and the spiritual significance of it. When we talk about "the cross", what we are really talking about is the fact that Christ died. Given that consideration, arguments about the exact shape seem less relevant.

Originally posted by Xcouncil=wisdom

Jesus died in relatively short order of his being hung up...that is consistant with a non crossbeamed torture stake...

well, according to the christian writers reports (some 100 yrs later), he was flogged and put through an extremely horrific ordeal before he was hung/nailed to a stake w/crossbeam/ tree .


the jesus dude, trudged naked throughtthe streets, with a crossbeam strapped on his outstretched arms of the city, to the death place called (by reports) Golgotha, just outside the walled city environs.

many jeered at the 'KING of the JEWS', and his exhaustion at the tortore hasten his death (which for many other felons was a long & tortourous death, over say 24 hours of agony)

i surmise that this jesus figure was a type of fat-cat, and over-indulgent character... as he was recorded to be at many 'feasts' dinners' weddings, and other gala events.... i surmise him to be a rotund, overweight, accostomed to easy living, not doing much in the way of exercise or muscle tone...but caught up in the rhetorical worlds of religious drama & debate... in-other-words a lush in that society by todays' standards


i give no quarter to the infered 'son-of-god',,, he was a self styled martyr that tried to enact his version of all the 'Messiah' prophecies laid out before him... a supreme 'Actor' as it were,,,,
sorry to offend the many vociferous christian believers/faithfull...
(you can prey for my soul --- or not , as you wish)

reply to post by DISRAELI


I am going to have to agree with you, in that I can't prove Definatevly cross or stake.

And I certainly am in agreeance that the important thing to remember is Christs sacrifice.

But what I can't comprehend is the need for a physical representation, or idol, that is used in prayer and worship?
Why is that necessary? Is not the word enough?

Are all the commands to avoid idol worship to be ignored? Why can't our works be proof enough of our faith?

That being said, it does seem a bit of a convenience that the cross made its way into mainstreem christian belief system...despite the comandments in the Old Testament, and the New to not be making images or idols...and no less that the Christ would be displayed upon something so familiar to pagan religions...
These all seem very good reasons to put this practice of venerating his image upon a cross behind us.

Well the significance of Jesus was that he fufilled over six hundred prophecies about him in the Old Testament and the calendar of time began at his birth.

What other person regelates that level of significence?

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom


1. object of adoration: somebody or something greatly admired or loved, often to excess


2. object worshiped as god: something that is worshiped as a god, e.g. a statue or carved image


3. forbidden object of worship: in monotheistic religions, an object of worship other than the one God


A symbol is what the cross is, not an idol.
a symbol reminds one of a specific event.
it is not worshipped as a god.

reply to post by oliveoil


in the newest translation, of the bible, it states that Jesus was hung to a pole. Stauros in Greek was translated wrong into cross. Stauros means pole.

Which Translation? I work at a Christian Bookstore and would very much like to see where it says that. Also if they mistranslated one word, what about all the other times when they specifically say "Crucify"?

reply to post by oliveoil
Same thing, wood = tree, most likely a figure of speech used by the Hebrews. "Hung" in this sense means, "hung upon", not "hung from, or beneath".



[edit on 27-5-2010 by NOTurTypical]