Some quick questions

Question 1:

Does the USA have open or closed borders? ( I mean on the books, not reality)

Question 2:

Is it against any laws to cross the border and reside inside the USA without authorization?

Question 3:

Is there any punishment associated with said laws?

Question 4:

If there was such a law, and it went largely ignored, couldn't we assume that other laws might be the same?

Question 5:

When unemployment benefits run out, would Joe Average Guy, be willing to pick cucumbers in order to support his family?


Question 6:

What does the word "ILLEGAL" mean to you? And is it up for debate?


Disclaimer:

I don't hate or even blame the people who are pouring into this country illegally looking for a better life. I do blame the system that allows this to happen and now has perverted itself so far that I am a racist for asking the above questions. Every state needs to adopt their own enforcement laws to curtail illegal immigration. If it won't/can't be done by the Feds, let the states deal with it as they see fit. As the tax paying voters see fit.


FIX THE SYSTEM. IT'S BROKE.

1. According to Federal Law, yes, the US does have a closed border.

2. It is against the law to cross illegally, but not to be in the US.

3. Deportation

4. Enforcement of current immigration law (Federally) is the problem with illegal immigration

5. Depends if the Average Joe also qualifies for other Federal benefits, including food stamps, Medicaid, etc. Also depends on work ethic. If social safety nets did not exist, then they wouldn't have much of a choice. Either pick the cucumbers or your family starves.

6. The word Illegal means (per mirriam-webster): not according to or authorized by law : unlawful, illicit; also : not sanctioned by official rules (as of a game). No, it is not debatable.

So there you have it. We have laws but they are ignored and the law-breakers are rewarded. If there were cucumbers around here to pick I would pick them, but we do have minimum wage and shouldn't be treated with slave wages below that. See, we have laws for a reason. We don't like our people living like 3rd world countries who will work themselves to death for nothing. Then again, I guess our government doesn't care, nor do the greedy corporations.

Summary: We're screwed!

Originally posted by network dude
Question 1:

Does the USA have open or closed borders? ( I mean on the books, not reality)

Question 2:

Is it against any laws to cross the border and reside inside the USA without authorization?

Question 3:

Is there any punishment associated with said laws?

Question 4:

If there was such a law, and it went largely ignored, couldn't we assume that other laws might be the same?

Question 5:

When unemployment benefits run out, would Joe Average Guy, be willing to pick cucumbers in order to support his family?


Question 6:

What does the word "ILLEGAL" mean to you? And is it up for debate?


Disclaimer:

I don't hate or even blame the people who are pouring into this country illegally looking for a better life. I do blame the system that allows this to happen and now has perverted itself so far that I am a racist for asking the above questions. Every state needs to adopt their own enforcement laws to curtail illegal immigration. If it won't/can't be done by the Feds, let the states deal with it as they see fit. As the tax paying voters see fit.


FIX THE SYSTEM. IT'S BROKE.

I love how "some quick questions" on ATS always seems to mean "I'm going to try to trap people who don't agree with me."
However, this one fine I'll take on faith and clear up some misconceptions:

1) The United States of America has Controlled Boarders, this means they are open to some things (commerce, official travel ect) and closed to others (smuggling, unregistered crossing ect.) "Open Boarders" and "Closed Boarders" are just buzzphrases here by people who really don't know what the hell they are talking about, seeing as the US will do neither of those things in reality.

2) Yes, that is why anyone that does it is called an illegal immigrant. It is considered a civil offense punishable by deportation back to the person's country of origin. Some cities however have enacted "Sanctuary Laws" that protect illegal immigrants and create a form of decriminalization of their actions. In 2007 a bill was introduced to Congress targeting the practice but did not make it our of committee. Here's the current Sanctuary Cities in the US:
upload.wikimedia.org...

3) As I said above unless another crime was committed while the illegal immigrant was within the United States, the only punishment usually is deportation. This is usually done through an court and the immigrant can sometimes apply for status as say a refugee or other asylum seeker. While the immigrant is being processed and their status determined they are detained at one of 200 detention centers prisons or jails nationwide.

4) To a point this case can be made but it is not fully rational. There are tons of old laws on the books in the United States that are not enforced anymore. Here's a whole website of such, some of them are bloody hilarious: www.idiotlaws.com...

5) Possibly, but remember that these jobs pay very low wages, less than what a family would need to survive. Depending upon the state that the citizen lives in, it could be much more advantageous for them to go on some form of welfare assistance, where at least they would not go hungry. I do also believe that some people would much rather go on a welfare program than take up a job they believe beneath them. We see that problem constantly over here in the United Kingdom.

6) I've been firm on my view of the existing law structure which is that it should be fully enforced while in statute but the existing laws need a full and complete overhaul. The United States needs immigrants at a rate that the existing immigration process in the US (which is draconian by some standards) cannot meet.

Your nation is in a position where you absolutely need these workers, but hate and revile them at the same time. I believe this is part of a longer and quite ingrained pattern in the US that the current immigrant race is scorned and scapegoated horribly for a generation or two before they integrate (and American culture integrates to them) and become accepted.

It is a sad thing but the history of bigotry towards immigrants is something that your nation is quite known for. Ask the Irish, Italians, Jewish, Chinese, Slavs, and many many others. We in the UK are not much better to be sure, but at least we are honest about our prejudices to ourselves and work to fix them.

reply to post by ProjectJimmy


Our nation does not "need" the workers.

Unemployment is at 10%. Mind you, that is not 10% of the population, just 10% of the work force. Less that 49% of the total population is considered "the work force". Those not included are students, retired, and THOSE THAT HAVE STOPPED LOOKING FOR WORK.

There are plenty of able-bodied people who would HAVE to take the "work no one wants" if the majority of long-term social nets were removed. The problem isn't that no one wants to do the work, the problem is that some just don't want or have to work, and those that would take those jobs (instead of a government check) can't get them because an "undocumented worker" does it for less than minimum wage. T

Originally posted by ProjectJimmy
We in the UK are not much better to be sure, but at least we are honest about our prejudices to ourselves and work to fix them.

And that is all I am asking for.

If we ignore some laws and enforce others, we are sending mixed signals to everyone. try doing that with a kid and see what happens. All they learn is that your an idiot and they can ignore you.

FIX THE SYSTEM!

reply to post by indianajoe77


I do not think you realize the position your nation plays in international economics. You are a consumer nation, in fact you are the largest consumer nation in the world. This is the reason that we, the good people of the United Kingdom, the government of China, the people of Japan and the government of Saudi Arabia keep bailing you out of your debt. Your job is to buy the things we make.

For this reason we, the rest of the world that finances your way of life, would like you to continue to allow immigration into your nation eventually bringing these new members of your society up to purchasing parity with yourselves. The reason for this is so that we can sell you more goods, materials and services.

If you really want to see our attitudes change on this in the rest of the world, call up all of your unemployed buddies and family members, and convince them to get out there, pick strawberries or work in textile factories. Whenever one illegal immigrant gets deported, replace them with an American in their line of work.

I honestly highly doubt it will ever happen.

reply to post by ProjectJimmy


I guess since you aren't from here, you wouldn't know these things, but the textile factories are all gone. NAFTA got them. Shipped them all out to other nations. Most manufacturing left. Since we don't make anything, we are in a world of hurt when it's time for margin call.

But you telling us how wonderful the economy is in the UK compared to us won't fix it. We as the USA need to fix it. If I knew how, and had the power to do it, you would address me as Mr. President, bit I don't see that as an option.

Really clear, straightforward questions, and ones that deserve answers, NWDude. I don't have THE answers, sorry to say, just MY answers. here they are:

Question 1: Does the USA have open or closed borders? ( I mean on the books, not reality)
The USA has a permiable border. It's almost like osmosis. Legally it is a regulated border. There are existing laws on the books to regulate the passage of both citizens and noncitizens, as well as the length of stay of noncitizens.

Question 2: Is it against any laws to cross the border and reside inside the USA without authorization?
Yes. There are several immigration laws for which this situation is illegal and presumably enforceable. There are also taxation and labor laws which pertain to this situation.

Question 3: Is there any punishment associated with said laws? yes, of course. Now, had you asked if the punishment is equally applied, or applied effectively, I would have had to answer that, no, much of the identification and enforcement of said laws seems to be sorely ineffective.

Question 4: If there was such a law, and it went largely ignored, couldn't we assume that other laws might be the same? We could assume so, but without written writ we would (or should) be taking responsibility personally for ignoring any laws. We all, individually, own the consequences of our actions.

Question 5: When unemployment benefits run out, would Joe Average Guy, be willing to pick cucumbers in order to support his family?
I think so. Joe Average would be in for a rude awakening, for even as he thought it couldn't get any worse, he'd discover parts of his body screaming for attention that he didn't know he had. Joe Average probably didn't grow up slipping melons, or beets or anything else. He would do it in order to support his family, however he probably wouldn't accept the reality of some of the conditions that came with it, like communal living, zero benefits, providing his own food and the miniscule pay.

Joe Average would be at a substantial disadvantage in other ways too. He would have to declare his paultry income on his taxes. He would have to compete with others who had developed the stones to conduct this backbreaking labor in the sun and unless ol' Joe had sand, he probably wouldn't be rehired by the boss of the field. Joe might hurt himself, and it would be his tough cookies. The consumers of those goods wouldn't appreciate Joe at all, either. Nope, they'd bitch over lattes about how much he is costing them. I'd like to think that Joe, and others like him, would persevere, particularly in a recently-changed environment of competing only with others like himself.

Question 6: What does the word "ILLEGAL" mean to you? And is it up for debate?

Nope. Crystal clear, no debate. Illegal means not fullfilling the conditions of being lawful and legal, just like it sounds. There is no wiggle room in that word. A person is, or a person isn't.

Good thread!

reply to post by indianajoe77


Agree, however I think much of the burdon of blame goes to those who hire the illegal or undocumented workers. Another group are those that outsource their goods to other countries, and lastly, us, the consumers, who largely seem to believe we can't subsist without cheap, foreign-made goods.

reply to post by argentus


At the end of the day, it is probably nothing more than venting anger. It's the feeling you get when you are looking at loose screw and have no screwdriver. Problem-identified, solution-not available. Frustration.

And no matter what, I always seem to come to the conclusion that there is just too much government. The self proclaimed solution seems to be the root of the problem more often than not. Sometimes I wish I was on an island.
with beer.

Originally posted by argentus
reply to post by indianajoe77

 

Agree, however I think much of the burdon of blame goes to those who hire the illegal or undocumented workers. Another group are those that outsource their goods to other countries, and lastly, us, the consumers, who largely seem to believe we can't subsist without cheap, foreign-made goods.

exactly! In the quest for greed, more money, more stuff, we keep trying to cut out the middle man. Being the middle man, I don't like it at all.

Originally posted by network dude
Question 1:

Does the USA have open or closed borders? ( I mean on the books, not reality)

We are supposed to have a wall with wide gates.

Question 2:

Is it against any laws to cross the border and reside inside the USA without authorization?

Yes absolutely it is against the law.



Question 3:

Is there any punishment associated with said laws?

Yes: Deportation, fines, prison terms, permanent ban from nation.

Question 4:

If there was such a law, and it went largely ignored, couldn't we assume that other laws might be the same?

This is exactly what the Founders were talking about when they used the term 'arbitrary government'. Governments that do this become arcane and often despotic.

Question 5:

When unemployment benefits run out, would Joe Average Guy, be willing to pick cucumbers in order to support his family?

When it comes to survival you either do or watch your family suffer. Americans will have to do what they must do. The same will be true for everyone else in the world.

Question 6:

What does the word "ILLEGAL" mean to you? And is it up for debate?

Yet another example of arbitrary government and a media controlled by it. They can make anything mean what ever they want by questioning even the meaning of words we all use. It's weak.

I hope these answers were satisfactory.

[edit on 18-5-2010 by projectvxn]

Originally posted by projectvxn


I hope these answers were satisfactory.

[edit on 18-5-2010 by projectvxn]

yup. In fact, I am not sure they can be answered any other way. Which is why I am dumbfounded at some of the comments on immigration. There is a right way and a wrong way. I agree that the right way needs to be easier and cheaper. But breaking the law is still just that.

thanks for your comments. You never fail to bring intelligent discussion.

I have worked in a textile mill many years ago. Many people did when those factories were here. It does not take MILLIONS of people to pick strawberries or whatever. No, we do not need workers from anywhere but here right now. This may have been the land of opportunity years ago, but America is broke, millions of citizens are unemployed.

People see America as rich and spoiled. Let me make this perfectly clear, many of our people are poor. Many of our homeless shelters are filled to capacity. Many of them do not have new cars and never have, or cable television, or cell phones, or a home to call their own. Many of our people have worked their butts off their entire lives and I don't mean pushing a pen at a cushy desk job, and cannot afford to retire in their declining age. Nor can many of them afford the medical they need.

This is the real America: People of all races and colors, many of who are suffering right now, many who are forced onto welfare because of joblessness. Many who have somehow fallen through the cracks of society and are living in tent cities. Yes, we have poor people here.

Our government and corporations have failed the American people and has instead replaced them with illegals. We cannot afford to have illegals here for so many reasons. I no longer care who understands this. If people want to see Americans as rich and spoiled or ignorant or racist or whatever, they are making assumptions. We have loving and compassionate people all over the U.S.A. We have people who care about laws and the protection and well being of its citizens.

frankly, I am tired of people who place illegals above a country's own citizens. I am tired of those who do not listen when we say we have compassion for all people no matter where they are from, yet still call us racist. For another country to look upon us as the evil white racist folk is absurd. Other countries have laws and America shouldn't?

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by ProjectJimmy

 

I guess since you aren't from here, you wouldn't know these things, but the textile factories are all gone. NAFTA got them. Shipped them all out to other nations. Most manufacturing left. Since we don't make anything, we are in a world of hurt when it's time for margin call.

But you telling us how wonderful the economy is in the UK compared to us won't fix it. We as the USA need to fix it. If I knew how, and had the power to do it, you would address me as Mr. President, bit I don't see that as an option.

I am guessing since you are not from the UK you don't know too much about our economy. I never said ours was great, just that it backs up yours. We're paying the price for that now. The people of Britain voted to enter a period of Austerity by choosing the Conservative/LibDem government we have now. Our political candidates told us it would be hard, but we chose to take the path.

If Austerity is not something you Americans have heard much about it makes sense, you've never had to go through it. Our taxes will go up, our government services will be cut, but we will survive because of it, and most importantly it was our democratic decision to do so.

You do still have textile plants in your country by the way, they are not all gone, here's a quote from the National Council Of Textile Organizations, their advocacy group:
"The American textile industry complex - which includes the textile industry, our suppliers in the cotton, wool, and man-made fiber sectors, the American textile machinery and textile chemical industries, and our customers in the U.S. apparel industry - employs nearly one million workers right here in the United States.

The textile industry, along with our suppliers and our customers, are found in every area of the country, and we are a key component of the U.S. economy. In fact, in 2005, the textile sector alone contributed some over $23 billion to the U.S. Gross Domestic Product. The U.S. textile industry consumed just over 2 billion pounds of U.S. grown cotton in 2006."

Sweeping generalizations do not at all help your case, especially when you are wrong on every one of them.