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Atheism – The complete disregard of scientific fact

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posted on May, 19 2010 @ 06:18 PM
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reply to post by hippomchippo
 


I figured...was just trying to highlight how ridiculous it is to ask for the proof of non-existence




posted on May, 19 2010 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by Horza

Originally posted by Conclusion


A creation designed better and more efficient than anything man could ever design.



I have never been able to understand this line of argument.

Are you really telling me that this messy, self destructive, inconsistent universe is an example of efficient and intelligent design??

Your guy makes Bloody Stupid Johnson look like Da Vinci






Lol your so funny! I am actually starting to see the reasoning behind atheism. It should be called EGO-ism. Basically that's what it boils down to. From the post I have read it seems that most think there is not a God because they can not accept the fact that something may be more intelligent than them or they can't stand the idea of someone ruling over their lives.
Seriously read your own post.
Do you honestly think you know enough about the vast universe to claim it is messy, self destructive and inconsistent. REALLY???
We probably only know 0.00000000000001% of everything that goes on in just a micro second of the universe.
Give me a break.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by Quadrivium
From the post I have read it seems that most think there is not a God because they can not accept the fact that something may be more intelligent than them or they can't stand the idea of someone ruling over their lives.


Gosh that's egocentric, assumptive and short-sighted. For most, it's about the fact that there's no tangible evidence and the fact that the universe operates just fine without creators, deities and gods.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 07:42 PM
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Explain to me how God exists when I see so much to say he doesn't.

Children being raped and killed by their parents.

Cancer.

Wars in the name of religion.

What kind of heavenly father would let his children suffer so much? Where's the wrathful God of the bible? Why can't he just show himself and say, "Hey! I'm up here, just get your act together or I'll stop this planet right now!"

No father would let his children suffer like that if he loved them. Any father that let his children suffer like that doesn't deserve to be a father.

He doesn't do that because he doesn't exist... OR... he doesn't love you.

Religious people are perfectly happy explaining the unexplainable with divine reasons because its not acceptable for there to not be an answer yet. Their reasoning says that they'll know everything when they die and it gives their lives purpose because there's a prize they can get to.

Atheists just don't believe in an overlying force controlling and overseeing everything. It doesn't mean that they're smarter. It just means that they don't have that religious baggage that needs to explain everything and give it reason.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 09:22 PM
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reply to post by Quadrivium
 


What I was referring to is the argument that Creationists make as proof that a creator exists.

The arguments goes like this.

"This thing is so perfect for it's environment that the only conclusion that one can reach about it's origin is that it must have been designed and made by an intelligence"

However, Creationist make the fatal flaw of approaching this argument from a) a human perspective only - if it looks designed, it must be designed and b) generally from a position of ignorance - irreducible complexity and transitional species.

Creationist arguments about bacterial flagellum, the eye, crocoducks and the banana are classic examples of this flawed reasoning.

The reality is that there is very few things on Earth that a perfectly adapted to their environments and most, if not all, life forms have to struggle continuously to survive. Using us as an proof of a designer can only be used as proof of an incompetent and untalented designer.

Using the universe as an example of a designer shows a lack of understanding and a lack of desire to understand.

And, so you know, I am not an Atheist ... I think their claim is equally as ridiculous ... however I do give them points for being able to change their mind in the face of evidence ...

My personal view is that their is a creative force, but it isn't a "god" ... but it is amazing and ruthless and it's displays of power, over the years, are what is responsible for the disaster that all this God bothering has brought to human kind.

It's easiest to call the creative force "nature".

Let me ask those religious types out there why they have to try and make up something more amazing than we already have? If that is indeed possible. Personally, I find the idea of a god to be obvious and one dimensional in comparison to the way that the universe works.

[edit on 19/5/10 by Horza]



posted on May, 20 2010 @ 06:37 AM
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reply to post by Organic97
 


Its all good...I have learned that understanding is always evolving, within each of us, and with us as a unit. It was not in a bad way at all.



posted on May, 20 2010 @ 07:57 AM
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Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by Organic97
 


Its all good...I have learned that understanding is always evolving, within each of us, and with us as a unit. It was not in a bad way at all.



Good...I am glad



posted on May, 20 2010 @ 08:09 AM
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reply to post by Conspiracy Chicks fan !
 




Our behaviour does have consequences and rewards, but why introduce unneccessary and illogical ''moral codes'' ? Why burden oneself with rules about an arbitrary and made-up concept ?


First of all, if one makes a decision to follow any given behavioral construct, and that decision is informed by past personal experience or intuition, it really wouldn't be considered a "burden" to that person.

And by intuition, I really mean an inherent instinctual survival mechanism that most mammals (and anything else with half a brain - pun) employ, naturally. It's hard to explain this objectively since I'm a part of society myself, but I think I would know instinctually to not kill another human (or another animal more cunning or dangerous than I), lest I face the same from another, unless they were holding the last piece of nutrition on the planet and I had everything to lose.

Of course, some people don't seem to have this natural, instinctual moral compass, and either learn it through experience (if they survive the lessons), or through a rational interpretation of common societal programming, which often benefits the same survival instinct.

I think theists might have a problem understanding this concept because they typically shrug off the notion that we are indeed animals with very basic instincts (if you peel away the layers of learned societal BS), not to mention the anthropocentric dogma that most religions espouse. This dogma becomes a survival instinct replacement, favoring the protection of their belief system instead of their own being, since they have generally turned over their well-being and ultimate destiny to an unseen, non-corporeal entity (i.e. read blind faith, albeit in some cases through perceived divine experiences).

That being said, in general, I think some (most?) people should have some religion (belief in a feared arbiter of moral behavior with deadly consequences) for the very reason that I've postulated above - for without it, and otherwise without a natural or intuitive sense of morality, or in some cases lacking the ability to learn such from society early enough in life, that they may become a menace. If not for this service of religion, fellow humans would have to "play god" and teach these moral deviants a lesson (i.e. we'd have to full on torture people in this life, instead of just the after-life. BTW, I think society has mostly confirmed that torture is bad, no? Why isn't there a thou shalt not torture? Perhaps a designed loophole?).

Even with this "admission," as it were, of the importance of religion in terms of it's morality stick, herein lies one of the main problems I have with religions (emphasis on the plural) in general - because different religions espouse different moral codes, rewards and punishments, they will never all get along, and hence the fact that most of the senseless wars throughout history have been perpetrated in the name of gods (again with the plurality). And this of course begs the ultimate question - If a loving, all-knowing, omnipotent deity created all that is, and us in "his" (apparently "his" Creator was also a bigot) image, why "design" in us, the ability to be amoral at all, unless again, he wanted a loophole for that whole killing the other people that don't believe in him thing?

I've never had anyone concisely answer that question - it always comes back to using satan as the excuse, or that we were designed to be imperfect sinners at the outset, and that that's just part of gods plan (really? remind me not to RSVP for the next exercise in celestial sadism)


Sorry, I didn't mean to rant on specifically about religion too much there at the end, but I think it's related to the debate at hand, especially in explaining to others why one might choose to state that they don't believe in deities.

-Greyling

[edit on 20-5-2010 by Greyling2012]



posted on May, 20 2010 @ 08:17 AM
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reply to post by Greyling2012
 


Great points Greyling...and I find them relevant for this topic.

Its the old scapegoat path...

Blame Satan for your wrongs...Praise God for your blessings in life and your achievements.

If you over come a temptation...lets say...to not cheat on your spouse...this is YOUR ACHIEVEMENT...you should find reward in your own heart and your own mind...through the will of your own decision making.

If you dont over come a temptation, again, lets say you do cheat on your spouse....this is easy to blame a outside source instead of facing your own internal weakness for lust. Blaming the idea of Satan tempting you is much easier then facing this was YOUR DECISION and you did not over come it.

Scapegoats...are dangerous, for growth of a personal path.

*I use the word 'you' in general, referring to others that place the blame and praise of their own actions...onto another outside of them.



posted on May, 20 2010 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by Greyling2012
 


Great points Greyling...and I find them relevant for this topic.

...

...this is easy to blame a outside source instead of facing your own internal weakness for lust. Blaming the idea of Satan tempting you is much easier then facing this was YOUR DECISION and you did not over come it.


Thanks LeoVirgo - As my third post here ever, it feels nice to get a thumbs-up as the first reply.


I'd add though that I'm not sure I would use the terminology "weakness," for a moral transgression may only be such in the eyes of others or society in general. Some people might thrive on cheating, like some kind of game, and thus far have not had a lesson of morality on the subject.
But yeah, I totally agree with what you're saying otherwise.

-Greyling



posted on May, 20 2010 @ 02:56 PM
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reply to post by Horza
 


Great points Horza, except the part about:



And, so you know, I am not an Atheist ... I think their claim is equally as ridiculous ... however I do give them points for being able to change their mind in the face of evidence...


Atheists make no claim of anything, they just state that they don't believe in a deity, unless of course they also state what they personally DO believe in, but that's personal opinion, not atheism... just thought I'd clarify because there are so many posts here misquoting the definition of atheism.


-Greyling



posted on May, 20 2010 @ 05:00 PM
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Well here is my stand point on the matter.

I do not believe in a "god" of any sort, and I mean any sort.

NOT in the way these religious fruits do!

If we were put here by Aliens for example as some do believe and to be honest there is some proof to this then they would not be classed as "gods" to me, so I would not worship them so.

For me science proves to some degree that the universe was created by the "big bang". Now from this I believe that there are multiple life forms spread throughout the universe some far more intelligent and far more advanced than us due to time and resources.

However, as HUMANS we need to start taking responsibility for our thoughts and actions and not base things on what a "god" would think. We ARE by no means alone but we should be no-ones PETS and look upon someone with greater technology than our own as "GODS".

Anyone who believes in GOD has already prepared themselves for failure and not living up to the importance of being a Human being! We alone should define our existence and be held accountable to NO-ONE but ourselves for the sake of Sanity! Our sanity should be our god, our guide and our soul.



posted on May, 20 2010 @ 07:59 PM
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reply to post by Greyling2012
 


Yeah, you are right there Greyling ... sorry I should have been more specific about the type of Atheist I was referring to ... it's the one with the capital A ... those that say, definitively, "there is no god" ... The extreme face atheism ... that claim that "There is no god" is a ridiculous and hypocritical claim to make.

I think it could be argued that most people who call themselves atheists are actually atheists with a little "a" - in that they do not prescribe to one of the major religious philosophies. ... and probably when you get a bit deeper into their personal beliefs you will find that they have more than a smidgeon of spirituality about them.



[edit on 20/5/10 by Horza]



posted on May, 20 2010 @ 08:24 PM
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A lot of you do not believe in God but each have something negative to say about Him or about religion as a whole.
Some of you have really strange ideas about God and those that believe in him.
1) I try to let God rule in my life but even so when I sin the decision to do so was mine. Satan did not make me do it! I did it and can't blame any one else. he may have had a hand in setting up the situation and he may be happy when I sin but it is MY Fault.
2) When I do not sin or I do something good just for goodness sake this pleases God. He does not make me do it. I did it on my own. I do pray that he will give me the strength to do what's right and I thank him for that strength. With that said it was still my decision to do the right thing.
3) I do not claim to understand the universe and I don't know if I will know any more when I get to heaven. I do not believe in God in hopes of one day getting knowledge.
4) I do see God in most things around me. I can't help it. When I see something breath takingly beautiful I can't help but thank Him. Everything does seem linked together to perfectly to be by accident. The only thing that does not fit is mans capacity to sin. It was free will that brought this about. The same free will we have today.
5) I have never been one to overly fantasies or day dream. I have a pretty good grip on reality. A wife of 17 years, 3 wonderful boys, and a steady job for the past 18 years. I have a personal relationship with God and it is the most ordinary thing in the world to me. I feel bad for those that are missing out on this.
6) It does not take a weak minded person to believe in God. On the contrary it takes a stronger mind to do so. It takes a stronger mind to hold to those beliefs and act upon them. Anyone may claim they do not believe and float through life, that seems like the easier way to me.
7) I will end with a couple of simple questions:
IF I am wrong, what have I lost in the end?
If I am right, what have you lost in the end?



posted on May, 20 2010 @ 08:26 PM
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(Edit due to double post because of connection issues)

[edit on 20-5-2010 by Quadrivium]



posted on May, 20 2010 @ 08:42 PM
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reply to post by Greyling2012
 


Very much agree with what you said...yes, I was using the term weakness to describe how it can be viewed as such...when ultimatly, every decision and choice we make should not ever be regretted...learned from mabey, but not regretted as in belittling and beating ourselves up over...for all things mold us and shape us...even what some would term as our 'weaknesses'.

The day we can step up and cherish all of our decisions...for we would not be who we are in this moment without any of them, is the day we start to mature and learn how each moment shaped who we are today.

Language...it limits us.



posted on May, 20 2010 @ 08:48 PM
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reply to post by SentientBeyondDesign
 


Garbage - you just don't get it do you.

The idea that a Jar of Jam made the entire universe is simply not true - if someone has evidence that a Jar of Jam did make the universe then we will know that a Jar of Jam DID make the universe.

But for now - a Jar of Jam did not make the universe - thats a fact. Saying that I do not know that a jar of jam did NOT make the universe, and therefore a Jar of Jam might have made the universe does not make the claim valid, nor does it invalidate the FACT that a jar of Jam did not make the universe.

If you are going to make outrageous claims - such as a jar of Jam made the universe - then you need to back it up. Otherwise we will go on the evidence at hand - which is that a Jar of Jam did NOT make the universe.

Replace Jar of Jam with any supernatural creature, entity, god etc.



posted on May, 20 2010 @ 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by Quadrivium

7) I will end with a couple of simple questions:
IF I am wrong, what have I lost in the end?
If I am right, what have you lost in the end?


My life is very similar to yours ... I love my life ... I am extremely lucky ... but rather than a relationship with god, I have a relationship with myself that fulfils my spiritual needs.

The answer to both your questions is nothing.

If I am right then we will all move on to the next stage and if you are right then, apparently, your God will forgive me.

Unless ... you are of the school that suggests that by you being right that means that I will go to hell or not go to heaven because I do not "worship God"

If you are then I feel sorry for you, as I do of all others that follow this path, that you do not have the emotional maturity to rise above threats of punishment to those who are not following you in your chosen path and that you do not let love and compassion rule your life rather than a book written by men.

All that organised religion is, is mass adult delinquency, due to to cumulative effects of bad parenting over the last two thousand years or so.

The effect of this has been the catastrophe of our social acceptance of or the apathy towards an institution that promotes a philosophy of punishment or reward.

It is a social acceptance of emotional child abuse.

The effect of that can be seen, today, in the myriad of humanitarian crisis that rack the globe.

Although, in some place it is getting better ... but in some places it is getting worse.

[edit on 20/5/10 by Horza]



posted on May, 21 2010 @ 01:45 AM
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It is all rather quite simple. Belief then faith. We all know the truth. That something is responsible for everything that is. There is far too much order in things to deny this. It never ceases to amaze me that people are so stubborn, hard-hearted and dedicated to their denial and allegiance to their own selfish desires. Why? So you can do what you want to do and live how you want to live? With freedom from the demands of scripture? But I must ask you this.

What do you gain by rejecting the notion of Elohim and his son Yahushua? Who will ultimately lose out when you die and find out it was all true including the consequences of such rejection?

People are so "logical" using science as their foundation but foolish and flawed in their logic. True logic and wisdom would tell you that it would be unimaginably better to die and find out it that being a Believer was all in vain than to die and find out that it was all real.

He who has an ear let him hear.

[edit on 5/21/2010 by lyyhtsource]



posted on May, 21 2010 @ 02:13 AM
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Atheists are just hoping there is no God. They believe in nothing, so they can ridicule every other explanation for existence out there. How cowardly is that? How does an Atheist explain existence? They couldn't possibly have an explanation.



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