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Atheism – The complete disregard of scientific fact

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posted on May, 19 2010 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by LeoVirgo
I point being...I cant expect anyone to just believe me. Was just trying to make a point.



Nobody doubts that you and your friend experienced something weird. The question is whether this has a supernatural explanation or a natural one.




posted on May, 19 2010 @ 08:23 AM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
You're still discssing nihilism, not atheism. If you actually believe you need fear of cosmic tyrants to behave morally then you apparently understand little about the human condition.


No, you're misinterpreting what I'm trying to say.
What I'm saying is that if an atheist personally believes that there is no evidence of God by following logic, then it also logically follows that there is no need to have any stance on morality whatsoever. Atheism logically begets nihilism.

I'm not saying you need God to act morally, rather that the whole concept of morality becomes irrelevant if there is no absolute arbitrator of what is moral and what isn't.

In essence, why should someone even bother with ethics or morals when they are meaningless ?

Apologies to all concerned for veering off-topic.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 08:26 AM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
No, it is not a logical worldview to behave immorally with belief in deities because there are clear consequences to immoral behavior that do not come from dieties or fear of them. Real-world consequences.


But there's no such thing as ''immoral behaviour'' !
It's illogical to have any kind of ethical or moral philosophy if one believes that those things are arbitrary.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 08:29 AM
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Originally posted by Conclusion
Then how do you think life began? It had to have been created. For anything to be created there has to be a creator. Much like for something to exist it has to first be observed.


Well, i don't really know.

Some of my main points against why I think there is no Creator (with a capital C) is that if such a being created life, why did it make life so fragile and finite?

Take us humans as an example. Why are we so flawed with disease, disorders, pain, suffering and so on. Why do we even need to "die" ? Wouldn't be learn and experience much more by living far longer? And why these soft, mushy bodies, limited in mobility? Why aren't we beings of pure energy?

This is why i think life started as a happy accident, bits and pieces flowing around the universe colliding with each other happened to form the very foundation/building blocks of primitive life.

I'm not saying there isn't a Creator - all I'm saying is that so far there is no evidence to suggest there is.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 08:29 AM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


Well I would say its natural...just not understood.

I have issues with the word 'supernatural'. I think its a word to describe what we dont understand...but yet, there are explanations to it. Which puts me in a strange category amongst other 'believers' since so many tie belief in a higher power to a supernatural means. I believe there is a science to things of Spirit. Can I prove things of Spirit are real? Nope. And I understand those that dont place bank on such things.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 08:33 AM
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reply to post by Conspiracy Chicks fan !
 


Are you saying someone would not want to be a good person just because they see themselves as a person amongst many and their actions and ways can have a effect on the world around them? That this isnt reason enough for someone to desire to be a good person?

Sorry if I am misunderstanding...

My father doesnt believe in things he doesnt see...or KNOW...and he is the greatest man I know, kinder and more giving then any person I have ever met. He has made a huge great footprint on this world....where does that good nature come from or the desire to be such a imprint onto others in his path?

[edit on 19-5-2010 by LeoVirgo]



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by Conspiracy Chicks fan !
No, you're misinterpreting what I'm trying to say.
What I'm saying is that if an atheist personally believes that there is no evidence of God by following logic, then it also logically follows that there is no need to have any stance on morality whatsoever. Atheism logically begets nihilism.

I'm not saying you need God to act morally, rather that the whole concept of morality becomes irrelevant if there is no absolute arbitrator of what is moral and what isn't.

In essence, why should someone even bother with ethics or morals when they are meaningless ?

Apologies to all concerned for veering off-topic.


Atheism does not logically beget nihilism. This is a faulty, incorrect assumption. Ethical behavior does not become irrelevant in the absence of belief in deities. Our behavior always has results: consequences and rewards which happen regardless of beliefs in deities.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 08:40 AM
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Originally posted by Conspiracy Chicks fan !
But there's no such thing as ''immoral behaviour'' !
It's illogical to have any kind of ethical or moral philosophy if one believes that those things are arbitrary.


It's illogical to believe that lack of belief in deities begets lack of belief in moral and ethical behavior.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 08:42 AM
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Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Well I would say its natural...just not understood.

I have issues with the word 'supernatural'. I think its a word to describe what we dont understand...but yet, there are explanations to it. Which puts me in a strange category amongst other 'believers' since so many tie belief in a higher power to a supernatural means. I believe there is a science to things of Spirit. Can I prove things of Spirit are real? Nope. And I understand those that dont place bank on such things.


I would rather consider the definition of supernatural to be things which would violate the laws of physics. Things we just don't understand yet are not actually supernatural, they are just unknowns



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 08:44 AM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Atheism does not logically beget nihilism.


I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.


Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Our behavior always has results: consequences and rewards which happen regardless of beliefs in deities.


Our behaviour does have consequences and rewards, but why introduce unneccessary and illogical ''moral codes'' ? Why burden oneself with rules about an arbitrary and made-up concept ?



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 08:46 AM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
It's illogical to believe that lack of belief in deities begets lack of belief in moral and ethical behavior.


It's not illogical.
What would you define as moral or ethical behaviour ?



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by Conspiracy Chicks fan !

This is what I'm trying to get at; why on earth would an atheist burden themselves with something as irrelevant as an ethical or moral code ?
It just seems completely illogical to me. I just can't see why morals and ethics would have any relevance to a logical, rational atheist.

[edit on 19-5-2010 by Conspiracy Chicks fan !]


It isn't really that hard to see, is it?

A logical, rational person, atheist or otherwise, should realize that having an ethical and moral code in any society usually allows for a better, stable, peaceful and safer place to stay as a community (even if certain codes are questionable by others) compared to one without it which has a higher chance of turning into an Anarchy and Chaos.

Many Fundamentalist believe that their religion is the only source of all moral and ethical codes on this planet, and it is impossible for anyone else outside of their religion to be civilized.

Which in my opinion, is probably still the main source of conflict today.

An Atheist (not the communist atheist), I think usually see any moral or ethical codes to be of great importance in their lives as it offers them a better way of life than one without it.

If a God of a particular religion, breaks it's own code of morals and ethics which it has imposed on it's worshipers, does it's worshipers follow the code or Their God?

[edit on 19-5-2010 by ixiy]



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Are you saying someone would not want to be a good person just because they see themselves as a person amongst many and their actions and ways can have a effect on the world around them? That this isnt reason enough for someone to desire to be a good person?


Someone might want to behave in a way that most people would describe as ''good'', if that was what they felt comfortable with.
What I'm questioning is the need for atheists - who openly admit that there is no definitive right or wrong - to illogically create any kind of moral code or rules made up of their own arbitrary ideas of right or wrong.
It just doesn't make sense.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 08:53 AM
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reply to post by ixiy
 


I think you make a great point right here...




Should a God of a particular religion, break it's own code of morals and ethics which it has imposed on it's worshipers, does it's worshipers follow the original code or Their God?



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 09:00 AM
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Originally posted by Conspiracy Chicks fan !

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Atheism does not logically beget nihilism.


I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.


With all due respect, that's rather absurd. You're talking with an atheist who is not a nihilist and argues that every atheist he knows behaves morally and ethically. It's up to you if you wish to maintain this misconception but if we can't get beyond it there's no more use for us to discuss moral and ethical behavior.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 09:03 AM
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reply to post by Conspiracy Chicks fan !
 


You do know that this question could also be directed to some who believe in a God...and that say there is no 'good or evil'....that all things, all natures of all beings, serve a purpose for the higher existence.

I guess I dont understand your question.....I guess I missed it where Atheist's are saying that there is no such thing as good or bad behaviors...as in personal opinions of what bad or good actions are. I think their point would be how can they force their own perspective of what is right or wrong on to a entire society or world.

I think everyone has their own personal meter of what is good and bad...and this can be influenced by their environment they are in or was raised in, even their beliefs can influence what their moral judgment is.

I find many things in the Bible and religion to be very immoral...but I cant push that on you or others...I cant make you see my way. It is my perspective, certain things in my life have molded and shaped that perspective within me. I cant push that onto the rest of the world, I dont have that right. Do you see what I am saying?

Just because the beholder see's one way, doesnt mean they feel they have the right to make the world see the same picture. Each to their own...? How far do we let that go?

Then, law and governance comes in. Have you seen that a couple of a belief is being taken to court for the aiding of their child's death. They refuse and their whole congregation refuse medical help to their children when sick...all sorts of their children have been dying. The courts are now stepping in asking the question of how far does the law go when it comes to beliefs and the harming of the human being.

Interesting to say the least. What is moral in that case? Who has the right to say? Is it each to their own...should the law step in....should one person's moral value over step another. Its a hard boundary to set.



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 10:31 AM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Conspiracy Chicks fan !
But there's no such thing as ''immoral behaviour'' !
It's illogical to have any kind of ethical or moral philosophy if one believes that those things are arbitrary.


It's illogical to believe that lack of belief in deities begets lack of belief in moral and ethical behavior.


Thankyou, keep denying ignorance Peace



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 10:37 AM
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Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by Conspiracy Chicks fan !
 


You do know that this question could also be directed to some who believe in a God...and that say there is no 'good or evil'....that all things, all natures of all beings, serve a purpose for the higher existence.

I guess I dont understand your question.....I guess I missed it where Atheist's are saying that there is no such thing as good or bad behaviors...as in personal opinions of what bad or good actions are. I think their point would be how can they force their own perspective of what is right or wrong on to a entire society or world.

I think everyone has their own personal meter of what is good and bad...and this can be influenced by their environment they are in or was raised in, even their beliefs can influence what their moral judgment is.

I find many things in the Bible and religion to be very immoral...but I cant push that on you or others...I cant make you see my way. It is my perspective, certain things in my life have molded and shaped that perspective within me. I cant push that onto the rest of the world, I dont have that right. Do you see what I am saying?

Just because the beholder see's one way, doesnt mean they feel they have the right to make the world see the same picture. Each to their own...? How far do we let that go?

Then, law and governance comes in. Have you seen that a couple of a belief is being taken to court for the aiding of their child's death. They refuse and their whole congregation refuse medical help to their children when sick...all sorts of their children have been dying. The courts are now stepping in asking the question of how far does the law go when it comes to beliefs and the harming of the human being.

Interesting to say the least. What is moral in that case? Who has the right to say? Is it each to their own...should the law step in....should one person's moral value over step another. Its a hard boundary to set.


Appreciate and fully understand your beliefs, and i agree with them. With what you said in mind, do you think we'll forever be in conflict and disagreement with one another.

You can see this today with all of the religion and all of the politics, playing one group against another because of a difference in pre-determined beliefs of policy which makes people have to choose what they believe in when they are not truely asking themselves what they believe in. I don't know if this made sense but i would appreciate your views, are we eternally destined for disagreement and unacceptance?



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 12:01 PM
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webpirate- some wag author (Schroedingers (sp) trilogy) suggested the universe contains a yes (Where did things come from, i.e. first cause principle, etc) a no, ( why all the sufffering (by humans) in the world... as if the universe were noticing our state of affairs,) and, a maybe...



posted on May, 19 2010 @ 12:14 PM
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reply to post by Utopian
 


Atheism – The complete disregard of scientific fact?

Where is some scientific discovery of "God" finally?

Because this makes no sense what so ever...


if it wasn't for TraditionalDrummer throwing down the intellectual gauntlet in this thread would not have read this far.. /golfclap




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