Atheism – The complete disregard of scientific fact

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Utopian
The reason for creating this thread is to debate the seemingly closed mindedness of Atheism in relation to most other belief systems.

I must admit though i will never feel comfortable with the theory that creation is random and that the universe in all its complexity has not been created by some form of intelligence.

You have clear bias against atheism and likely will never see the universe as it really is.


[edit on 18-5-2010 by traditionaldrummer]

Wow, just WOW! That is the stuff right there.

I lean towards a "purpose" based universe instead of a "random anomaly" universe, but I don't claim to see it the way it really is. At least admit you don't know, jeez. That is faith sir. You can use a "secular" word to separate yourself but it is what it is.

I see something written down, I logically think someone wrote it. I see a machine, perfect or NOT, I think someone designed it. That is logic, but I don't deny that I don't KNOW or see the universe the way it is.

traditonaldrummer - lack of evidence may mean we haven't looked in the right place yet... biologists of the early 20th century would have been scandalized by theories of life forms around deep-ocean vents, in super-heated seawater... new technology (remote sensors) may lay waste our presumptive knowledge (Samadhi tank).

blankslate- the philosoher Alan Watts once concluded that God, after creating the universe, looked around, decided it was good, and said to himself,"Get lost". Watts studied as an Episcopalian in the mid-20th century, so his gender attribution might be understandable... One thing's for sure - if God is monitoring our discussion, it has to be l His/Her ao...Peace, all

Originally posted by Conspiracy Chicks fan !

Originally posted by BlankSlate
Sorry, I have to pull you up on this one.

What you're describing there is moral nihilism, not atheism. While nihilism will no doubt lead to atheism, it is absolutly not true that atheism leads to nihilism.

There are secular moral and ethical philosopies that pre-date christianity.

That said, I do strongly doubt traditionaldrummer's claim that atheists are largely more ethical people than theists. That sounds completly made up.

Moral nihilism surely is the default position of an atheist, though ?
No God or Natural Laws = no right or wrong = no such thing as morality and ethics, other than the feverish figments of an idealist's imagination.

Secular moral and ethical philosophies mean nothing, in truth, because they are only one person's opinion, which is no better or worse than another person that may have his own ethical philosphy of killing, raping, stealing and cruelty.

I agree that it's highly unlikely that there is any statistical evidence to support the claim that there's any difference in the ethical behaviour amongst atheists or theists.

It's certainly not the default position of the atheist. As mentioned elsewhere atheism is only a lack of belief in all gods and comes with no moral or belief structure.

If you wanted to you could argue that nihilism would be result of atheism if followed through to its logical conclusion. I don't think it is though.

It's true that there's no objective way of measuring secular ethical philosophies, but the same can be said for religious based ethics which of course are just one person's opinion an interpretation of the bible or what have. You couldn't objectivly say whether Catholic or Eastern Othodox doctrine is correct.

Of course a lot of athiests just follow whatever moral code they had already developed.

Originally posted by BlankSlate
It's certainly not the default position of the atheist. As mentioned elsewhere atheism is only a lack of belief in all gods and comes with no moral or belief structure.
If you wanted to you could argue that nihilism would be result of atheism if followed through to its logical conclusion. I don't think it is though.

What, though, is the logical and rational conclusion that an atheist should come to in regards to ethics and morality ?
I can't see how an atheist could be anything other than nihilist, unless they felt there was any other source where absolute right or wrong would come from.

Originally posted by BlankSlate
It's true that there's no objective way of measuring secular ethical philosophies, but the same can be said for religious based ethics which of course are just one person's opinion an interpretation of the bible or what have. You couldn't objectivly say whether Catholic or Eastern Othodox doctrine is correct.

I agree, but religious based ethics are slightly different due to the fact that the person who is following a particular moral code, does so under the belief that it is absolute and therefore act accordingly.
Why should an atheist even be bothered about an arbitrary and unneccessary construct such as ethics or morals ?


[edit on 18-5-2010 by Conspiracy Chicks fan !]

Originally posted by Conspiracy Chicks fan !

What, though, is the logical and rational conclusion that an atheist should come to in regards to ethics and morality ?

I can't answer this because I am neither the Atheist Pope nor an anthropology expert, but evidence based on atheists I have met suggests that most don't end up as nihilists.

Originally posted by Conspiracy Chicks fan !

I can't see how an atheist could be anything other than nihilist, unless they felt there was any other source where absolute right or wrong would come from.

...


Why should an atheist even be bothered about an arbitrary and unneccessary construct such as ethics or morals ?

You don't need absolute right and wrong to have an ethical system. You don't need to be an atheist to argue that.

As for why an atheist would follow an ethical or moral code, well, any good moral code should explain why a person should follow it.

What does being an atheist has to do with having moral values?

Both are completely separate concepts, I dont see the point of even mentioning the 2 in the same sentence... its like "ok, you dont like apples, so you clearly dont like sports cars" what the hell?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by unityemissions
This is a common myth, and a logical fallacy. Lawyers and people of reason are constantly proving negatives. The fact of the matter is that both theists and atheists are biased. The most logical stance is agnosticism.

It is not a logical fallacy to dismiss the burden of falsifying someone's unsupported claims. It is the responsibility of the claimant to substantiate the claim, especially in areas such as metaphysics which is characterized by containing no evidence whatsoever.

Agnosticism requires little logic, and is biased against reason, evidence and decision making.

Sorry I missed out on all the fun but I had to go to work, but maybe I can join in now.
One can not use logic in dealings with God. It can not be applied to Him. His ways are not our ways, therefore we are not able to understand. Not understanding is not a very logical way to dismiss something you do not believe in.
I can only try to use reason in this argument.
So I ask “Does God exist and why do some people believe in him?”
How do we know that love exist? We feel it, we know it is there but does it exist? How about sorrow anger and our other emotions, do they exist as well? Sure they do. People have always felt them. We feel and know that they are there.
Will the sun rise tomorrow? Sure it will because we expect it to and it has every day that we have lived.
Will it be hot during the summer close to the equator or colder during the winter the farther north you go? Sure it will because as far as we are concerned it has always been so.
Will tomorrow have 24 hours? Sure it will. Every other day has had 24 so why should tomorrow be different?
Will my house be in the same place I left it when I get home from work ? Sure it will be, it has been there every other day.
So, does God exist and why do people believe in him? Sure He does and people believe in him because they always have.
If you want we can switch back to logic but by YOUR standards we need to remember that we can not prove a negative.
I do not believe in evolution.
I do not believe in the big bang.
I do not believe in ufo’s
I do not believe in man made global warming.
I do not believe the world will end in 2012.
I do not believe there is any such thing as an atheist.
The burden of proof is upon anyone who wishes to disagree with my beliefs: by your standards of course.

The superior person is reverent; at all times acknowledging the great Creator and the wonderousness of the universe.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by faceoff85
uhmmm... here the OP posts his message in such a way that nobody can take offence

I disagree.

Creationist and evolution-denier bigotry is offensive.

You just proved him right. You are the 'illogical' atheist.

Well guys it looks like another debate where no matter what we cannot see eye to eye.

Okay. Here are my proofs of a creator.

We see creation everyday. We see plants grow. Trees spring to life. People being conceived everyday. We see our creative ideas come into existence through our very hands. Creation is evident of itself.

What we describe as DNA is a very complex set of instructions that gives the instructions for our bodies to exist. The data is so extensive that the only way to describe our bodies, is as being biologically engineered.

We see everything around us that is engineered. Yet when you see the engineering of our own body why you would deny that it was designed to be that way is beyond me.

That is proof. What other proof would you need?

A creation designed better and more efficient than anything man could ever design.






[edit on 19-5-2010 by Conclusion]

[edit on 19-5-2010 by Conclusion]

reply to post by traditionaldrummer

I don't really operate on belief. Belief takes the brain to weird and sometimes bad places. I don't really have answers for the big questions, don't need those answers to get through life, and don't have a huge desire to answer them anyway. I am secure in the observation that the universe doesn't need gods, deities or creators to operate.

That logic is wrong. If we did not need creators in the world in which we live we would have no kind of technology what so ever. As we have learned how programs apply to the running of a technology we see how our own bodies are operating off the most advanced programming we know as a fact exists. Our own DNA. Call the creator a programmer if you want. But as we know with technology, it doesn't create or program itself.

[edit on 19-5-2010 by Conclusion]

It seems illogical and reckless to presume that there is no mind setting out the rules by which our reality is governed. Please don't get me wrong i am not suggesting that have any idea of the identity of said mind, only that as our sciences progress we find ourselves moving further and further away from a coincidental reality and more towards a reality of design.

Steven Hawking

Not only does God play dice, but... he sometimes throws them where they cannot be seen

I would appreciate a self proclaimed atheist view on the "how" and "why" of everything without reverting ad nauseum to the "I don't have to prove a negative" line. If you do not have the answers is it not reasonable to keep an open mind to the possibility that a cosmic mind/deity does in fact exist.

[edit on 19-5-2010 by Utopian]

Atheism comes right out and says,"There is no God". A claim that only someone with absolute knowledge of the universe can make. You would
have to know all the possible variations, that could arise on every level
of existence, there could even remotely be. If anyone possesed full
knowledge of the universe.That would make them God. To say, There is no God is the same thing as saying, I am God.

Therefore Atheism is the wackiest thing I've ever heard.

No one needs proof that God exists. The Bible dosn't spend anytime trying to convince people that God exists. It only shows us that his existence is so obvious, we have no excuse for denying it.

Originally posted by randyvsThe Bible dosn't spend anytime trying to convince people that God exists. It only shows us that his existence is so obvious, we have no excuse for denying it.

Reread what you just wrote. You're claiming the bible doesn't try to convince us, but rather shows us that his/her/its existence is obvious....that's one and the same thing, lol. The excuse for denying it is that there is no proof

It's unbelievable that, in this age, in the modern, western society, a large part - possibly majority - of people really believe in some kind of fairytale of some dude from the heaven. And that "evolution doesn't exist" and that we were put here by some supernatural being 6000 years ago. This may explain a part of the idiotic mess we're in.

I think these people need some serious education and their heads checked.

Originally posted by Conclusion


A creation designed better and more efficient than anything man could ever design.

I have never been able to understand this line of argument.

Are you really telling me that this messy, self destructive, inconsistent universe is an example of efficient and intelligent design??

Your guy makes Bloody Stupid Johnson look like Da Vinci

Originally posted by Horza

Originally posted by Conclusion


A creation designed better and more efficient than anything man could ever design.

I have never been able to understand this line of argument.

Are you really telling me that this messy, self destructive, inconsistent universe is an example of efficient and intelligent design??

Your guy makes Bloody Stupid Johnson look like Da Vinci

I was referring to the human body. But yeah the universe works good too.

Originally posted by randyvs
If anyone possesed full
knowledge of the universe.That would make them God. To say, There is no God is the same thing as saying, I am God.

Therefore Atheism is the wackiest thing I've ever heard.

I totally agree ...

The reality is that the hypocritical and irrational argument that Atheists put forward is a by-product of humanity's emotional immaturity and intellectual arrogance.

No one needs proof that God exists. The Bible dosn't spend anytime trying to convince people that God exists. It only shows us that his existence is so obvious, we have no excuse for denying it.

I totally disagree ...

The reality is that the hypocritical and irrational argument that Diests put forward is a by-product of humanity's emotional immaturity and intellectual arrogance.