It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.


Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.


MK Topics...

page: 3
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in


posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 01:22 PM

Originally posted by Raud
You bet people of TPTB are having wet dreams about sending every each one of us into a SEED camp. Or maybe even turning the entire world into one big SEED facility...maybe they have come quite far already?
Thoughts on that, people?

The SEED program actually sounds like it draws applications from cult programming...meaning the program details a set of ideaological concerns and behaviours and then prohibits associations, personal and social, to anything that may risk contradicting the imposed principles.

We already have that to a large extent in many aspects of today's society as a more or less implicit societal construct (political/religious/patriotism/even regional (sports teams?) affiliations. Granted, most of it is of a benign nature but anywhere where social labels are provided there is a social division (sports affiliations are an example but societally speaking can be viewed as a positive). Extreme examples would likely center on political and religious the rhetoric presented on either side of the paradigmical fence is usually met with a very focused attention.

What concerns me more than "cult programming", since such techniques can usually be dissuaded, is the application of remote stimulaiton and conditioning. This effects the subconscious more than "overt" social conditionings and runs the risk of inducing a tunnel vision in the individual which could prevent crtitical thought processes...which oddly enough (
) would benefit those whom desire a complacent worker.

Great write up...and I am certain that this is just the tip of the iceberg. I'll edit in the link, but there is a patent from 1937 for remote stimulation for behavioural manipulation...we are way behind on this topic...

posted on Jun, 3 2010 @ 01:29 PM
Hhhmmm...not sure why I thought it was a any rate, there were papers written on the topic even as early as 1934. I am sure there are earlier examples but finding information on this topic is a difficult endeavour...

“Electrical Excitation of the Nervous System—Introducing a New System of Remote Control.” E.L. Chaffee and R.U. Light. Science, 1934, 79.

“Epileptiform Convulsions from ‘Remote’ Excitation.” F.A. Fender. Archives of Neurology and Psychiatry, 1937, 38.

“On Hearing by Electrical Stimulation.” S. Stevens. Journal of Acoust. Soc. Am., 1937, 8.

“Stimulation of the Brain by Means of Radiant Energy.” J.A. Gengerelli. American Psychologist, 1948, 3.

“A Technique for Chronic Remote Nerve Stimulation.” M.M. Lafferty and J.F. Farrell. Science, 1949, 110.


posted on Jun, 4 2010 @ 12:23 AM
reply to post by MemoryShock

I too have a feeling that what went on at SEED facillities came from somewhere, probably govenment "proven" mind control techniques.
It's not all "trial and error".

One of the founders was an ex-AA member and SEED does sound a bit like AA but way, way, way more bizarre (though AA can be a bit strange too, given the "right" therapy leader).

"The Peoples Temple" had CIA involvement, surely derived from the MK programs.

I'll start with "BRAINWASHING" soon. I just gotta get some time off work first (that means: after the weekend).
Next time I am at my parents place, I'll look for more material.

I hope that we get to connect some dots together when we've gone through a sufficient ammount of source material.
I wish for this MK thread to be bigger, better and more unseful than any of the other!
So far, so good!

posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 12:35 AM
I'm done reading "BRAINWASHING" now.
I've made some notes and came across some interesting stuff.

I'll compose a post about it as soon as I get some time off-off (that means some time off while not having something else to do).
As I said earlier, I refuse to bring that book to work (I am not online at home very often for various reasons) since it is fragile and does not belong to me but my father (who has this serious doubts about lending just about anything to anyone). Hope you understand.

You just gotta keep your pants on in the meantime.

posted on Jun, 9 2010 @ 11:21 PM
I've done a tonne of research into mind control, and MK-ULTRA...there has definatly been some new details in this thread but by and large, I am familiar with most of what is being brought up/quoted. When I research various fringe topics, I usually leave judgement at the door. That is to say, I am not that concerned with whether or not the material I am reading is true or not, just that it exsists and is interesting. I save judgment usually for afterwards, when pieces of the puzzle start assembling themselves. However, on some occasions, the feeling from my gut is so strong that I can't help but judge. I try to avoid this, but sometimes you simply cannot.

And in all my years of research, one of the single most reality shattering documents I have ever read is on this very topic. As it has not been talked about yet, I'm going to bring it up.


I cannot recomend this highly enough. As I read it, the whole mind control thing started coming together in such a big way. It started all lining up and making alot of sense. It made all the sexual abuse in the church make sense. It made some of these figures in history, such as sirhan sirhan make complete sense. If you break down all of Hammonds theories, they line up with B.F. Skinners work on behavior. It all made sense. If you push the mind and body far enough, there is a fight or flight reaction. at a certain point, there is no fighting, because fighting any further would mean the mind and body split. you are left with a person who is awake and alive, but in such a state of shock that whatever defined them as a human being before, besides their body, was now gone. fresh for the molding. What Hammond uncovered was that they could settup multiple personalities inside a person, each with its own memories and emotions and desires. each with it's own programs and subroutines. They would split a persons mind up like a computer, different levels of programing, kill switches, backups, and firewalls.

Anyway, I could go on and on about it. I could quote it. I would rather if everyone just read it. If you haven't heard of it before, and you are interested in this topic, it will blow you away.

posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 01:01 AM
reply to post by dethroner

Great contribution man!

I'm gonna get reading it right away.

In my humble opinion, even more so than the UFO topics, the MK ditto just can't get weird enough...mainly because most of it is true.

Human behavior at its worst.

Just keeps repeating itself in my head;
The nazis never lost the war...they just changed locations.
...or maybe one can't just blame them being "nazis"...seems worse still that they were human beings.
Nazi isn't just a political opinion, it's a state of mind.

Like some black, cursed energy that travels through time, clouding the minds of men with sick and perverted ideas...and the possibility to make them reality.

We must NEVER forget the MK.

posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 03:37 AM

Originally posted by dethroner

Ooh, this is heavy!

"Here's where it appears to have come from. At the end of World War II, before it even ended, Allen Dulles and people from our Intelligence Community were already in Switzerland making contact to get out Nazi scientists. As World War II ends, they not only get out rocket scientists, but they also get out some Nazi doctors who have been doing mind-control research in the camps."
"They started doing mind-control research for Military Intelligence in military hospitals in the United States. The people that came, the Nazi doctors, were Satanists."

100% genuine "Mind Murder":

"Then, after a suitable period when they're in a certain brainwave state, they will begin programming, programming oriented to self-destruction and debasement of the person."

Oh my God...The ultimate Manchurian Candidate
(The fist section makes me think of "Men Who Stare at Goats")

" ...therapists inquiring and asking, "What is Theta," and patients say to them, "Psychic killers," it tends to make one a believer that certain things are very systematic and very widespread. This comes from their belief in psychic sorts of abilities and powers, including their ability to psychically communicate with 'mother'" including their ability to psychically cause somebody to develop a brain aneurysm and die. It also is a more future-oriented kind of programming."
"Another who had one intensive year of inpatient work with all the finest MPD therapy you can imagine -- abreactions, integrations, facilitating cooperation, art therapy, on and on and on, journaling, intensively for one inpatient year followed by an intensive year of outpatient therapy two, three hours a week. In both patients we found out that all of this great work had done nothing but deal with the alters up here and had not touched the mind-control programming. In fact it was not only intact, but we found that the one who was outpatient was having her therapy monitored every session by her mother, out-of-state, over the telephone, and that she still had intact suggestions that had been give to her at a certain future time to kill her therapist".

Man, oh man, oh man, oh man...
This is like the worst horror film/nightmare ever, one thousand times over!

I knew mind control could be horrific beyond imagination, but when you get it like this...printed from a prime quality source like're just not gonna sleep OK at night for a while.
Who is "mother"?
Answering that question should be the main goal of the investigation.
Are you with me on that, people?

Just like the Eisenhower farewell adress, this should be one of the classic quotes that come up every once in a while:

"The way you create Manchurian Candidates is you divide the mind. It's part of what the Intelligence Community wanted to look at. If you're going to get an assassin, you're going to get somebody to go do something, you divide the mind. It fascinates me about cases like the assassination of Robert Kennedy, where Bernard Diamond, on examining Sirhan Sirhan found that he had total amnesia of the killing of Robert Kennedy, but under hypnosis could remember it. But despite suggestions he would be able to consciously remember, could not remember a thing after was out of hypnosis. I'd love to examine Sirhan Sirhan."

This really got me thinking about why all these celebreties are into Kabbalah. People like Madonna, Mick Jagger, Naomi Campbell, David and Victoria Beckham...(list)
Early in the transcript it is said that:

"They [the Nazi scientists gathered at Operation Paperclip] brought them to the United States. Along with them was a young boy, a teenager, who had been raised in a Hasidic Jewish tradition and a background of Cabalistic mysticism that probably appealed to people in the Cult..."

Then I read:

"Remember the Process Church? Roman Polanski's wife, Sharon Tate, was killed by the Manson Family who were associated with the Process Church? A lot of prominent people in Hollywood were associated and then they went underground, the books say, in about seventy-eight and vanished? Well, they're alive and well in southern Utah. We have a thick file in the Utah Department of Public Safety documenting that they moved to southern Utah, north of Monument Valley, bought a movie ranch in the desert, renovated it, expanded it, built a bunch of buildings there, carefully monitored so that very few people go out of there and no one can get in and changed their name."

Is there a deeper reason why these mainstream people who exercise a lot of influence on the general public is into this cult/sect? Are they "drawn" or rather "lured" into it for some reason?
Worth thinking of...
Anyone from Utah who wants to do some high risk field research on these people? I know I wouldn't... Just imagine being taken hostage and turned into one of "them"...

From the Q&A session:

"We now in Utah have two full time ritual-abuse investigators with statewide jurisdiction under the Attorney General's Office to do nothing but investigate this."

Again, do we have any Utahan members who can check this out?
Would be super awesome!

This has been on my mind lately and I really think we should take this into consideration when discussing the UFO abduction victims:

Q: "It seems to me that there seems to be some similarity between these kinds of programming and those people who claim that they've been abducted by spaceships and have had themselves physically probed and reprogrammed and all of that sort of thing. Since Cape Canaveral is across the Florida peninsula from me and I don't think that they've reported any spaceships lately, I was just wondering is there any sort of relationship between this and that?"

Dr.H: "I'll share my speculation, that comes from others really. I've not dealt with any of those people. However, I know a therapist that I know and trust and respect who I've informed about all this a couple of years ago and has found it in a lot of patients and so on, who is firmly of the belief that those people are in fact ritual-abuse victims who have been programmed with that sort of thing to destroy all their credibility. If somebody's coming in and reporting abduction by a flying sauce who's going to believe them on anything else in the future? Also as a kind of thing that can be pointed to and said, "This is as ridiculous as that"."

Okay, now it's getting off the charts (still from Q&A):

"People say, "What's the purpose of it?" My best guess is that the purpose of it is that they want an army of Manchurian Candidates, ten of thousands of mental robots who will do prostitution, do child pornography, smuggle drugs, engage in international arms smuggling, do snuff films, all sorts of very lucrative things and do their bidding and eventually the megalomaniacs at the top believe they'll create a Satanic Order that will rule the world"


"There's an interesting person in the late sixties who talked about the Illuminati. Have any of you ever heard of the Illuminati with regard to the Cult? Had a patient bring that up to me just about exactly two years ago. We've now had other stuff come out from other patients. Appears to be the name of the international world leadership. There appear to be Illuminatic Counsels in several parts of the world and one internationally. The name of the international leadership of the Cult supposedly. Is this true? well, I don't know. It's interesting we're getting some people who are trying to work without cuing who are saying some very similar things. There was an old guy in Hollywood in the late sixties who talked about the infiltration of Hollywood by the Illuminati. "

Now, I personally find too many flaws in the NWO/Illuminati conspiracy. It just doesn't add up in practice (like it might do in theory) but I do find it interesting that it comes up in this subject...
And he ends that answer (in regard to all above and more unquoted material prior to it) with this:

"Well, I can't definitely tell you that it is. What I can say is I now believe that ritual-abuse programming is widespread, is systematic, is very organized from highly esoteric information which is published nowhere, has not been on any book or talk show, that we have found all around this country and at least one foreign country."

After reading all the material, one of the first sections (at the beginning for the transcript) keeps ringing in my head:

"In Chicago at the first international congress where ritual abuse was talked about I can remember thinking, "How strange and interesting." I can recall many people listening to an example given that somebody thought was so idiosyncratic and rare, and all the people coming up after saying, "Gee, you're treating one, too? You're in Seattle"...Well, I'm in Toronto...Well, I'm in Florida...Well, I'm in Cincinnati." I didn't know what to think at that point."

Excellent material dethroner! If I could star your post 100 times I would!
I totally concur with you when you say you coulnd't recommend it enough.

[edit on 10-6-2010 by Raud]

[edit on 10-6-2010 by Raud]

posted on Jun, 10 2010 @ 05:39 PM
Hey, thanks!

So I figure you're familiar with disinformation, and have at least at some point come across information where you feel suspicious that it was either created by someone for attention/money, or it was created by some sort of disinformation organisation or group. Well, this is where it gets dicey. If you read the Hammond speech and think to yourself, hey, this sounds totally plausible, and the guy has mad credentials, and he seems really pationate and, hey, he stopped talking about all this immediately after this speech. so he obviously wasnt doing it for money or attention. what was his lifes work is his lifes work no more and he works as a professor at university of's really suspicious. like someone coerced him into stopping what he was doing. I assume they threatened him with harm to family or loved ones.

If you find that speech believable, and you a into conspiracy theories, well, it won't take long for you to start lining up a whole pile of things and realising that so much would be plausible in terms of control, of a hidden hand guiding everything along. what if there were tens of thousands of people who could do anything you wanted them to, be able to do anything you wanted them to do, and not remember doing it, or remember being told to do it, if you didnt want them to? if people themselves didnt even know they were puppets...that they thought they came up with all their own ideas? what if, through sustained conflict in countries in every region of the planet you were able to get your hands on orphaned babies and brainwash them from the age of a few months on, well, wouldnt it be easy to create terrorist cells? false flags? if you had enough of these types of people, could you use your power and influence to help them into positions of power?

so, anyways, like i said, after that speech, for me, things get terms of, what is true, what is false, and what are half truths? anyway, here's some more information on this whole thing:
this is a link on the history of mind control. it's really good.
this is a link of some serious research on the military side of things, MK ULTRA....really good, lots of references.
svali is a pseudonym for a woman who was allegedy both a victim of ritualised abuse, but also was a "trainer" or one who did the same horribe things to other youngsters. apparently she got help, ran away from it all, was followed and harrassed, but eventually found some peace and freedom. she started writing about the details of everything as buried memories from different alters started surfacing. There is a tonne of material, and while some of it certainly has a big ring of truth to it, i am sceptical of the thing as a whole. Still, there is a tonne of information here, and it's all quite interesting. worth a read.
Ryerson university in toronto canada did a 9 month long radio show about ritual sexual abuse and mind control. it was done in 97 and it is SUPER good. there are links to transcripts of all the shows. super interesting and a friggin pile of stuff to sift through. if you contact ckln, you could probably get your hands on the shows themselves.

so basicaly, if you read all that stuff, well, you'll probably be at it for a while. if you lurk around on some of those websites, there are more links and sections and stuff and basically, there is no end to the amount of information out there about this stuff. another thing to look into would be the frnklin cover-up. that's been discussed in several threads on ATS....

Anyways, happy hunting. This is the be-all, end-all of conspiracies, as far as i'm conscerned.

posted on Jun, 11 2010 @ 07:34 AM
reply to post by dethroner

Hello mate!

Having a father who was an instructor in POW interrogation for many years, my interest in brainwashing and other MK topics comes naturally.
Disinformation is not much an interest as it is a tragic fact of every day life.

I've let the Hammond transcript sink in now and there are two things I still need to get cleared up.

First is about the speech itself.
I can't really get this part straight. Exactly who is excited over that Hammond (I assume?) knows about ritual abuse? The patient or the therapist?

She called me back two hours later, said, "I just had a double session with this patient and there was a part of him that said, 'Oh, we're so excited. If you know about this stuff, you know how the Cult Programmers get on the inside and our therapy is going to go so much faster.'"

From the above quote, it seems like it is the patient that is excited over it, which makes no sense.
These "candidates" couldn't possibly know about their condition, not with the massive brainwashing and BM they have been subjected too...
It just doesn't add up.

This also brings me to my second question: how are these patients, that are former "candidates", obtained?
Do they walk into the therapists office and ask for an appointment?
Are they found, walking like zombies on the side of some desolate interstate road?

My third question is in regard to this:

We now in Utah have two full time ritual-abuse investigators with statewide jurisdiction under the Attorney General's Office to do nothing but investigate this.

Now, I don't live in the US, but a majority of ATS members do.
Would anyone be so kind as to call the AG's office and check if this is in fact true?
General Office Numbers: (801) 366-0260, (801) 538-9600, (801) 366-0300
Toll Free within the State of Utah: (800) AG4 INFO (244-4636)

I believe a phone call would be of more value than an e-mail that can be denied reply...

What also feels a bit "out" in Hammonds observations is what he says about "snuff movies" and that these are an important source of revenue for the Cult:

...arms smuggling, do snuff films, all sorts of very lucrative things...
(there is also another mention of snuff films in the transcript).
What I find strange is that "Snuff movies" aren't really existing in any wider extent, maybe not at all. At least not as far as I am concerned (for whatever that is worth).
I just find it odd that he chooses to mention that. It's not like it's on the same economical level as arms or drugs trafficking or even child pornography.
Any thoughts on this?

As of Hammond going quiet about all can only speculate.
Maybe he realized that the rabbit hole was a tad bit too deep?
Maybe this beast revealed just was too grand and too massive to be fought?
I think we should make an attempt to contact him personally.

The credibility for all of this insane jazz to be true is not very far fetched.
When one starts thinking that some material sound a bit too out of this world, remember that the US government, and this is all proven FACT, saved numerous Nazi "black" psychologists and psychiatrists from trial, imported them to the USA, giving them more or less unlimited funds and asked them to keep doing what they did in the death camps, only this time they wouldn't have to worry about any reprisals at all...
I mean, how sick is that???

Medical science advances extremely fast. Already the pre-Nazi Germans had in 1923 developed a somewhat dependable "truth serum"; Amytal (I believe it was mentioned in the "Greenbaum Speech").
"Truth serums" can not be developed without experimentations on human subjects. And if it is something we learn form the "chemical" side of the MK projects, it is that these kind of experiments are specifically cruel.

What I am trying to get to here is that this kind on inhuman mentality, on this refined and in this narrowly oriented field, is hardly any news.
Where the predecessor of all modern MK projects actually originates from (be it Nazi, Communist or other) is a question in itself, but it seems at least to me that the Germans have been into this stuff on a much more serious level than any other nation, at least as far as we have learned so far...

I do believe in evil "forces" more than I believe in evil men... And in regard to the horrible and violent history of Europe it seems that this force is strong there. So much death, so much terror has sprung out of the central parts of the continent.
This is all on a highly personal and "spiritual" side of the argument, but I think it makes sense, that there is some sort of evil that is cursing this world and infecting the minds of certain men...

To end this post, I'd like to say one more thing that seems very strange and that has to do with what Hammond says in the transcript.
It is about this part:

The people that came, the Nazi doctors, were Satanists.

Now, I have this encyclopaedia dealing with the paranormal, and in the section covering different cults, sects and secret societies there is a part about the Thule Society (or Thule-Gesellschaft). This was to later become the German National Socialistic Worker's Party, NSDAP.

What gets very interesting in conjunction with what Hammond says in the above quote is what a man called Trevor Ravenscroft said in his book "Spear of Destiny" about the Thule Gesellschaft and the early Nazis:

The inner circle of the Thule society were Satan worshippers who conducted black magic. The members of the society exclusively involved themselves with performing rituals in order to ascend their consciousness to a level where they came into contact with the World's evil and non-human, intelligent beings and communicate with them. The most prominent of the initiated in this inner circle was Dietrich Eckart."

I'm sorry if the translation above is inaccurate but since I do not hold a copy of "Spear of Destiny" in its original language, this is as good as it gets (the quote comes form my encyclopaedia).

Mr. Ravenscroft is a highly debatable source, to say the least.
One customer review of Spear of Destiny on says it quite clearly:

"How you feel about the Spear of Destiny depends a lot on how seriously you take Ravenscroft's ideas on the 3rd Eye. Are you ok with someone writing history as seen in someone else's mystical vision or are you more the footnotesey type? The fact that a lot of Ravenscroft's quoted sources are out of print makes his ideas hard to check or corroborate."

With that said, I would like to make it clear that I see no "proof" or "smoking gun" about the Nazi/Satanist conspiracy, but I do find the coincidence interesting.
Hammond might however just have read the book and become influenced...
As long as I haven't met him in person for a prolonged period of time, I can't really tell...

We need to dig deeper into this...into the darkness...

posted on Jun, 11 2010 @ 09:28 AM
And now for the anticipated (?) book report:
"BRAINWASHING (From a Psychological Point of View)"

The title says it all.
If "Behavior Modification" was written with much emotion and dedication, "BRAINWASHING" is just a cold, clinical observation report.
It is quite possible that the author (or authors) were a group of psychologists that were given the task to dissect the brainwashing methods used in Soviet Russia at the time.
Exactly how they gained this highly detailed information remains a well-protected secret, but it couldn't possibly have been done without the help of spies and/or deflected agents.

Already before the book reaches the first chapter, just after the foreword, there is an ominous and rather distasteful quote:

"We know now that men can be made to do exactly anything........ It's all a question of finding the right means. If only we take enough trouble and go sufficiently slowly, we can make him kill his aged parents and eat them in a stew."
(Jules Romains. VERDUN. A. A. Knopf, 1939, P. 156)

Now, just why the hell they chose that quote remains a mystery...
My guess is however that these people are just so freaking demented there is no end to it.

The foreword is so important to understanding the level and quality of this publication that I'll quote it in full (every page, plus the front and back of the cover has "CONFIDENTIAL" printed at the top and bottom, as can be seen in the pictures):

"The following comments will be of assistance in keeping the contents of this volume in perspective:
1. The term brainwashing is used in a very restricted sense. It is an unfortunate term and its uncritical use should be discouraged.
2. The paper represents the views of one groups who consolidated two previous papers in its preparation.
3. The paper is popularly, rather than operationally oriented. Discussion of defensive measures has been eliminated.
4. The chapter on Communist Control Techniques represents the process as it has been found to be; the chapter, An Analysis of Control During Brainwashing, as it might be if appropriately managed and pushed to its final conclusion.
5. As brainwashing is practiced at present, a captive does have resources at his command to help cope with its effects. Individuals do recover spontaneously when returned to their normal environment. Even if brainwashing were practiced as thoroughly as it might be, there is a high probability that such a recovery will take place.
6. A package on this topic, with an operational orientation, will be issued in the very near future.

As for point 5, remember that we are in the year of 1956.
Besides, it may not intend to be some sort of assurance that any human subjected to brainwashing experiments in the US will be alright afterwards, but maybe that the technique to brainwash someone permanently just hasn't been discovered yet...
MK-Ultra began in "the early 50's"...this is '56...

Note that all information in the volume is about the methods used by the Soviet MVD (later KGB, now FSB).

Cardinal József Mindszenty is popular name that keeps coming up. This is no big surprise since his escape to the US in 1956 (during the Hungarian revolt) probably provided the intelligence community with vital information about Communist prison procedures (Mindszenty was sentenced to life in prison in 1949 but was freed during the revolt).

On page 15, there is a description of the brainwashing holding cell.
This is the early version of "The Room" that is mentioned in "Behavior Modification".

The typical cell is a small cubicle, about 10 feet long by 6 feet wide, containing a single bunk and a slop jar. It usually has no other furnishings.
...the general aspect of barrenness is characteristic.

Then, we move on to the initial stage in washing someone's mind:
Isolation and strict regimen (pages 17-18):

At all times except when he is eating, sleeping, exercising, or being interrogated, the prisoner is left strictly alone in his cell. He has nothing to do, nothing to read, and no one to talk to. Under the strictest regimen he may have to sit or stand in his cell in a fixed position all day. He may sleep only at hours prescribed for sleep. Then he must go to bed promptly when told and must lie in a fixed position upon his back with his hands outside the blanket. If he deviates from this position, the guard outside will awaken him and make him resume it. The light in his cell burns constantly. He must sleep with his face constantly toward it.

Do I need to mention that the "food" given to the inmates is poor and disgusting? Well, according to this publication, it is.
Page 18:

This regimen within the detention cell is in itself a most potent weapon in the hands of the MVD. It has been developed and refined over a period of many years and used on literally thousands of prisoners. It is highly effective in "breaking the will" of prisoners -- so much that many MVD officers are convinced that there is literally no man who cannot be brought to do their bidding.

That last part in reference to the quote in the beginning of the volume?
The only issue seems to be how to break and reprogram the subject faster.
Thus evolved what would be known as "The Room"...

Page 19 continues to explain the effects on isolation:

A major aspect of his prison experience is isolation. Man is a social animal; he does not live alone. From birth to death, he lives in the company of his fellow man. His relations with other people and, especially those closest to him, are almost as important to him as food and drink. When a man is totally isolated, he is removed from all of the interpersonal relations which are so important to him and taken out of the social role which sustains him. His internal as well as his external life is disrupted. Exposed for the first time to total isolation in an MVD prison, he develops a predictable group of symptoms, which can almost be called a "disease syndrome". The guards and MVD officers are quite familiar with this syndrome. They watch each new prisoner with technical interest as his symptoms develop.

The initial parts of the "syndrome" is not hard to guess.
The arrested subject is first chocked and bewildered by what has happened. Soon after that he becomes angry and starts yelling at the guards to let him out while banging furiously on the door.
After a few weeks, however, things start going bad for the subject.
The washing begins (page 21-22):

The period of anxiety, hyperactivity and apparent adjustment to the isolation routine usually continues for one to three weeks. As it continues, the prisoner becomes increasingly dejected and dependent. He gradually gives up all spontaneous activity within his cell and loses all care about his personal appearance and actions. Finally, he sits and stares with a vacant expression, perhaps endlessly twisting a button on his coat.
He soils himself, he weeps, mutters and prays aloud to himself. He follows the orders of the guard with the docility of a trained animal. Indeed, the guards say that prisoners are "reduced to animals". It is estimated that in the average case it takes from four to six weeks of rigid, total isolation to produce this phenomenon.

Four to six weeks...
Thinks the man in control: "how to make it four to six days...or hours?"
Thus begins the experimentation on drugs and hypnosis...

Not quoted here are the description of the interrogations. I didn't find them too interested. It is mostly pretty basic stuff;
the interrogator typically asks the prisoner to "confess", without telling him to exactly what. As the prisoner doesn't give the correct answers, he is beaten or tortured physically in some way.
By not asking direct questions, the subject is left to search is own mind over and over for what it is exactly he is being accused for.
This is an effective way to wear someone down completely.

So, now the subject is "washed" through means of isolation, reduced nutrition, interrogations that border to pure torture sessions, and strict regimen.
The next step is to imprint the new mindset.
Enters the "good cop" on page 38(-39):

The interrogator is seated behind his desk, relaxed and smiling. Tea and cigarettes are waiting on the table. He is ushered to a comfortable chair.
He [the interrogator] is sorry for the discomfort which he [the prisoner] has been suffering. He is sorry that the prisoner has had such a difficult time. The interrogator himself would not have to wished to do this to the prisoner -- it is only that the prison regulation require this treatment, because of the prisoner's own stubbornness. "But let us relax and be friends. Let us not talk any more about crimes. Tell me about your family" -- and so on. The usual line is to the effect that, "After all, I am a reasonable man. I want to get this business over as much as you do. This is as tiresome to me as it is to you. We already know about your crimes; it is a mere formality for you to write out your confession. Why don't we get it over with so that everything can be settled and you can be released?"
Prisoners find this sudden friendship and release of pressure almost irresistible. Nearly all of them avidly seize the opportunity to talk about themselves and their feelings, and then on to talk about their families. Most of them proceed from this almost automatically to giving the information which the interrogator seeks. Even if they do not provide everything the interrogator wants at this time, he may continue his friendly demeanor and the relaxation of pressure for several more sessions before resuming the old regiment of torture.

(continued in next post)

posted on Jun, 11 2010 @ 10:18 AM
The subject has now been isolated and "washed". The situation changed and the nice treatment has made him "confess" (until the "confession" is 100% satisfactory, the process of torture and reward sessions continue).
Now, it is time for trial, sometimes they are a pompous public "show trial", sometimes just a shortened process where the condemning slam of the judge's hammer sounds after less than five minutes.

If the accused is confessing as a result of discussed brainwashing (and not a "real" criminal) he is put in good shape for the cameras and eyes of the public, if not at least for the court itself (because torture and mistreatment is "not happening" in the prisons! :@@

But why won't he revolt in court and retract his confession?
Why won't he cry out about the mistreatments and the torture?
Well, there are many mysterious ways in which brainwashing works
(page 54-55):

(1) The setting of the private trial as we have just described it makes it apparent to the prisoner that any attempt at recantation is useless.
(2) The prisoner at a private trial is always under actual threat by the MVD. The officer in charge of his case has clearly indicated to him that any attempt to alter or recant any part of his confession will lead to an immediate resumption of the interrogation-torture regimen. This thread is as poignant as a cocked pistol.
(3) Warm and positive feelings between prisoners and their interrogating officers often develop during the interrogation process, and many prisoners come to trial with the feeling that, if they attempt to alter their testimony, they will be dishonoring an agreement with their interrogators.
(4) Finally, it is to be emphasized that in spite of all these deterrents, some prisoners do recant at their private trials. The court then decides that these prisoners have not yet reached full awareness of their crimes. They are sent back to the detention prisons, and once again put through the torture-interrogation regimen. Sooner or later, they learn that pleas of "not guilty" are not acceptable in Soviet courts, and that they must behave themselves at their trials. Otherwise, they are indefinitely detained or executed.

In consideration to point 4, public "show trials" are only performed with specific prisoners with who the brainwashing procedure has been specifically successful.

I also learn from this publication the difference of purpose between the Soviet and the Chinese brainwashing.
While the Soviets seem satisfied with the temporary effects, the Chinese wanted a more long-lasting effect.
Maybe this is why the US MK projects became more involved with that rather than the MVD techniques, at least in the long run.
As a prisoner within the Soviet empire, there would be nowhere to run and squeal about what one have been through, as would be possible in the USA.
No, a US brainwashing much be persist! That is why in "Behavior Modification" there is so much talk about "induced amnesia".

However, it is not hard to see that the US brainwashing techniques are derived from both the Soviet and the Chinese versions.
The Chinese work with much greater groups of prisoners and do not use isolation as a "weapon of choice". They are more inclined in making the brainwashing process a "sect-" or "cult like" experience, like for example the SEED that is discussed in "Behavior Modification".

On page 69 there is a short "check list" of the different metal states the subject will experience during the brainwashing.
I actually think the "core" of the publication boils down to this section.

(1) A feeling of helplessness in attempting to deal with the impersonal machinery of control.
(2) An initial reaction of "surprise".
(3) A feeling of uncertainty about what is required of him.
(4) A developing feeling of dependence upon the interrogator.
(5) A sense of doubt and a loss of objectivity.
(6) Feelings of guilt.
(7) A questioning attitude toward his own value-system.
(8) A feeling of potential "breakdown", i.e., that he might go insane.
(9) A need to defend his acquired principles.
(10) A final sense of "belonging" (identification).
The order in which the feelings are engendered within the individual may vary somewhat; but all are necessary to the brainwashing process.

It starts to sound more like a manual or handbook than a mere "report".

To end this book report, I would like to add some useless trivia about the volume:

Only every other page is written upon. There is only one side printed on each page. Thus, page 2 is really page 4, 5 is really 7, and so on.
That's pretty retro.

Strange thing:
Page 8, 30 and 57 are all duplicates!
WTF is up with that? It's not like they have some specific material that absolutely, positively has to be read twice...

Well, I hope at least some of this is useful to someone, if not at least interesting/entertaining.
I'll be returning the books to my ol' man tomorrow if all goes according to plans, and, of course, check for some other juicy material!

Thank you for reading!

posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 03:01 AM
reply to post by TheLoony

Your post is starred!

Though I have only gone through the CCHR material, "Evidence of Revision" (episode 5), and the first episode of "The Century of Self" I must say that they are all vital material in understanding the background and width of the MK topics.

In the CCHR documentary "Making a Killing" I became very disturbed and frightened with what I heard. Maybe not so much CIA about it, but still an important piece on medical experiments carried out on humans...experiments that go on every day in our psychiatric institutions...

Now, I have never been on any such medication so far in my life, but for you who have/are on it now; this is very interesting and important information!

The chapter called The Experiment I think have the closest ties to the MK projects, and the terrible story of a 11 year old girl taken hostage and experimented on by Big Pharma for weeks in the classic MK routine told of in the chapter "Pitching the Public" (@ 11:00) just makes my flesh creep!

The story she and her family tells of is just like what the MK ULTRA victims tells of, but this is not the 50's or 60's, this happened in the 90's and probably still happens today!


That has MK written all over it.

"Evidence of Revision" part 5 is an excellent coverage of the Jonestown tragedy, a tragedy that is very exhausting to investigate because of the haunting horror of it all (I can't help but letting it go to my heart and head).
It was a mass-mind-murder, more than anything; systematic brainwashing on a grand scale.
Mothers killing their own kith and kin.
Does it get any worse?

Still, uncovering the truth is more important than avoiding nausea.

The Jonestown suicides in Guyana, where 909 members of the Peoples Temple, led by Jim Jones, died in 1978. Of the 918 dead (including four in Georgetown and five non-members at an airstrip), 276 were children. The tragedy at Jonestown was the greatest single loss of American civilian life in a non-natural disaster until the incidents of September 11, 2001.
On a tape of their final meeting, Jones tells Temple members that the Soviet Union, with whom the Temple had been negotiating a potential exodus for months, would not take them after the Temple had murdered Congressman Leo Ryan, NBC reporter Don Harris and three others at a nearby airstrip. When members apparently cried during what the Temple called "revolutionary suicide," Jones counseled "Stop this hysterics. This is not the way for people who are Socialists or Communists to die. No way for us to die. We must die with some dignity."

(Taken from the Wiki article on Mass Suicide)

Jonestown is the height (or rather the absolute low) of the MK projects.
A little known fact is that Jonestown had its own "hospital" where drug experiments took place on a daily basis.
Is it fair to say that the darkes minds that lurk in the shadows of TPTB wish for the entire world to become one major unified Jonestown?

In that part of the documentary, there is a mention of William Joseph Bryan, self entiteled "Czar of Brainwashing" and accused of sexually absuing women under hypnosis, but on the internet there is not much detailed information about him (at least not at first and second glance).
Together with Richard "Dick" Dwyer who ties the CIA to Jonestown, these two need to face deep investigations.
Anyone ready to take on that task?

What to make of the 300 or so Green Berets and British Black Watch commandos who were also in the area?
Personally, I find it merely a coincidence. Guyana is known to host foregin troops for jungle warfare exercises so that wouldn't be strange at all.

Who is the man @ 1.07.20?
There are several name tags missing in the documentary, but this man intrigues me because of what he says about the Iran-CONTRA hearing; that a CIA official (?) stated that "the population is the enemy".
Can someone identify him for us, please?

One final inquiry about this documentary:
There is a mention of a Dr. Bourne (???) who had some ties to the Rockefellers.
Who is this person?
Would be thankful for some help on that...

Moving on to the series The Century of Self (part 1).

As far as the first episode goes, it has little, if not nothing to do with the MK, but it is still vital information in understanding the history of BM and MC.

We get familiar with Edward Bernays, nephew of none less than Sigmund Freud himself (say of feel what ever you want about Freud, but he took a healthy distance, if not openly denouncing the ideas of Bernays).
He more or less invented PR, emotionally targeted advertisment, and jump-starting Capitalism in the 1920's.
Edward Bernays is the man who triggered the beginning of Consumerism!
Now that might have come out a bit harsh, but I really dislike Consumerism since it is so closely tied to the reason why this planet and the human species are doomed. However, it might not Bernays "fault", at least he cannot be held responsable personally (because if he wouldn't have come up with it, someone else would) but I still shake my head in disbelief when I hear about how he scornfully plucked the strings of the humble, unknowing masses minds, modifying their behaviour into "happy" consumers...the blind leading the blind by the words of their puppet masters.

In any case, some blame should also be taken by President Hoover who under the influence -if not by the command- of Bernays made Consumerism the central part of "The American Way".

Paul Mazer, who personally subscribed to every word of Bernays, and who worked for Lehman Brothers in the 30's, once said the following:

"We must shift America from a needs- to a desires-culture. People must be trained to desire, to want new things, even before the old have been entirely consumed. [...]
Man's desires must overshadow his needs."

There we have it, people; the blueprints for the world's inevitable demise.
Put it together with the fact that Bernays daughter, Anna, quotes her father frequently using the word "stupid" about other people and about people in general. "Stupid people" who could be toyed around with by the wave of a hand. "Stupid people" who didn't know their own good and therefore could be exploited by any wish of the minds above them.
This is the soil that Fascism grows from.
Bernays was one of the typical personalities we expect to find in TPTB; the greedy, selfish, ruthless people that can do nothing but look down on humanity as "mere ginuea pigs".
When I think of it, Bernays fits perfectly in the MK topics, because if he was born and raised in another place, he'd be perfectly happy in the company of Gottlieb or any other MK frontman!

For some historical trivia and personal ponderings on the latter topic I'd like to mention that Freud in his later days also despised mankind, but for other reasons.
Freud had understood that man's primitive drives were much more dangerous than what he had anticipated. If not earlier, he had discovered this during the horrors of the First World War.
This brought him to the conclusion that man's inner self must always be kept under control and that he must never be allowed to express himself to full extent. Therefore, man must always be discontent with life and with he world.
Now, Freud was a very bitter man during his last years so I wouldn't comply to his ideas all the way, but I do understand what he is going at;
If man is allowed to do whatever he wants, there will be violence more sooner than later.
I hope for a "paradigm shift" (I hate that expression) in 2012 to evolve mankind beyond this obstacle, that we will be able to completely live free of boundaries without this leading to confrontaion and suffering.

President Roosevelt, in the face of The Great Depression, tried to fight off both Capitalism and Consumerism (since this had led to the marked crash, just as it has led to it in our days) by centralizing business.
Was this the move that put the chain and ball of debt onto the USA?
Was it an sinister act by the Capitalist powers to forever scar the nation and its people and eternally bind them onto the market with the power of the FED?
That stuff is completely off-topic, and I'm sorry for that. I just needed to get it out of my system.

One last OT thing:
National Association of Manufacturers = TPTB?

In the next post, I'll be more on-topic.
Cross my heart

posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 03:11 AM
reply to post by dethroner

One more thing about the Hammond transcript that raises questions:

They [US intelligence during OP Paperclip] brought them [the Nazi doctors] to the United States. Along with them was a young boy, a teenager, who had been raised in a Hasidic Jewish tradition and a background of Cabalistic mysticism that probably appealed to people in the Cult because at least by the turn of the century Aleister Crowley had been introducing Cabalism into Satanic stuff, if not earlier.
The people that came, the Nazi doctors, were Satanists. Subsequently, the boy changed his name, Americanized it some, obtained an M.D. degree, became a physician and continued this work that appears to be at the center of Cult Programming today. His name is known to patients throughout the country.

Care to reveal that name?

[edit on 15-6-2010 by Raud]

posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 09:12 AM
Since the OP doesn't steer this thread in any general direction *kicks Mem's leg under the table* I'll just write whatever I feel like in the meantime...

reply to post by TheLoony

So, now I've seen all of The Century of the Self episodes.

Afterwards I get an all too familiar notion of "being had".
Though it's hardly any news, it's always frustrating to have it rubbed in and being faced with how the market powers are having their way with one's psyche.
I try to defend myself from their propaganda as much as I can. I try not to conform and I want, more than anything else, to be viewed as an "incomplete consumer".
But it's hard to float on top of this sea of ignorance and rubbish that is the modern world... The market powers know every corner of our minds and they share their knowledge with the politicians just to make all of society turn on the citizen...

It's one big mess and I strongly recommend all to watch this documentary to get the "whole picture" (though it never gets into detail very much).

In episode 2/4, at 40:00 there is some about brainwashing, CIA and Dr. Cameron. Not a whole lot, but it is always interesting to see how the MK-topics gets woven together in a thick fabric of deciet.
That episode is also the one I liked the most.

I shall never forget the name Edward Bernays.
To me, he represents all that I despise and wish to rid the earth of.
Thanks for the heads up on that, TheLoony!

posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 09:41 AM
Do you want an example of Mind Kontrol.

Speak of Lizard people on ATS. Immediately David Icke will come to your mind when David Icke never coined the term. Mention shapeshifter they will think "David Icke Reptilians"

Speak of 911 Truth
People will automatically think "Conspiracy Theories"

Speak of Conspiracy Theories and people will automatically think the word "Government"

Mention MK Ultra or the MK programs to people familiar with the subject will automatically think "'___'"

Mention UFO-People automatically think "Roswell and Area 51"

the most educated( speaking of college degrees and armchair intellects that think they have all these research hrs and documents invested) no matter how sincere are all victims of Mind Kontrol.
If I was to tell you that '___'(psycho-tropics) is the furthest least common drug used in the MK Ultra research and development and that the chemicals they give you in the air water food (Food and Drug And Administration) are better than the '___'( or other psychotropics) they began with, you would probably say nonsense.."Prove it" Prove it....

Then you will quote sagan (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.) and stand by this mentality with furious Zeal. Sagan-nagaS(serpent)

But you don't want to go into that (serpent) because this is all David Icke Lunacy and besides what does this have anything to do with this subject.

But truth stands as truth no matter what you do to it so I will continue.

Other modalities used in MK (Mind Kontrol ) is Sound, Visuals EMFs, NLP

They also use group think. If you believe outside this box you are subject to attack, ridicule etc.

[edit on 28-6-2010 by superluminal11]

posted on Jun, 29 2010 @ 12:13 AM
reply to post by superluminal11

Dear fellow member,
you are adding outlandish and irrelevant theories to the discussion that are hardly needed.

The MK topics are quite weird enough as they are with accepted, solid and well-documented facts.

Lets stay proffessional this time.

posted on Jun, 29 2010 @ 02:21 AM

Originally posted by dethroner
this is a link on the history of mind control. it's really good.

One the other hand, in a document that was extremely highly classified, eyes-only for the Director of the C.I.A.'s Eyes-only, it turned out that there was a spy in the Androsi Street Prison who was reporting back to the C.I.A. everything that was happening to Mindszenty, and this Eyes-only report which I've read is a wonderful document. It details exactly what happened to Mindszenty. It names the Soviet hypnotists who did the work and the drugs that they used to assist them in that work. It's a step-by-step manual for the programming of Mindszenty.

That sure is more of a high-flyer than the BRAINWASHING booklet I have!

Though they must have been produced during the same time, judging from the mention of Cardinal Mindszenty.

Walter Bowart has speculated, and I think it is a good speculation, that the MK stands for Mind Kontrol, and ULTRA was the code name given to breaking the Japanese and German codes, and so this was the code name given to breaking the code of the human mind.

I thought I'd heard that explaination before!

Earlier in the transcript, we are told of this classic experiment (that I guess we have all heard about):

People came in and they were told that the experiment involved pain and learning, and that they would be the teachers, and that there was a student and that they could see the student, and the student they were told was hooked up to an electric grid, and every time that... The teacher was to give the student a question, and every time the student gave a wrong answer one of the switches was to be pushed.

Ring a bell?

What Milgram discovered is that the overwhelming number of people pushed all of the switches, and that the simple reinforcement of saying, "I will take responsibility," or that there was an experiment going on, was sufficient to allow them to do that.

And then, a bit into Part 2, I see a connection:

In order to know whether it [creating a fail-safe Manchurian Candidate by using drugs, hypnosis and suggestion] worked, you had to conduct what Morse Allen called "terminal experiments". These were experiments that could result in the death of the subject. The CIA gave clearance for those experiments to be done and in reference to one researcher who was asked if he would participate in them, he said, "if you set up terminal experiments, I will do them for free."

In this case, the MK operative asks the CIA to conduct a "terminal experiment", thinking that green light means that the CIA will take responsibility. At the same time, the CIA might as well think that the operative is the one responsible for the outcome of the experiment.
One hand washes the other...

This will just be for future reference:

Walter Bowart's book, "Operation Mind Control" which is hard to find, and a collector's item, an extremely important book. John Marks' book, "The Search for the Manchurian Candidate", and my book, "The Mind Manipulators"

(I've begun using this thread as my personal notebook!)

Here we have some support for the Hammond lecture:

Is it reasonable for you to believe that widespread satanic abuse occurs? The answer to that I think, is yes. Despite the Lanning Report and despite the conclusion that will come out later on, it is your job to believe your patients, at least within the therapy setting, and if they say it happened, then you work effectively with them by believing that it happened. It's when there is a real world corollary that the trouble begins.
...when I went to an FBI friend of mine who oversees the Behavioral Science program there - I said why does the FBI deny the existence of widespread satanism - he looked at me and said they also denied the existence of the Mafia.

I don't like it one bit how these speculations develop...
Being a Black Metal fan since I was a kid (a musical genre closely tied to Satanism and Devil Worship) I know a fair share about this stuff.
I am not, and have never been, an active participant of such beliefs or ways of life, but I know there are a few out there who are really, I mean, really into this stuff. Knowledge that runs back to the Old Testament and King Solomon are still in circulation today. Bad, bad energies. It's like being a drug junkie, you know, when the drug has taken you over totally...but instead of meth or crack or whathaveyou, you are under the influence of these dark spirits...
This is OT, however.

I will comment on the other links as I finish reading them.
Thank you for the great contribution!

posted on Jun, 29 2010 @ 03:05 AM
Aaah...what a wonderful world

Felt the need to make this little in between posts post:

Allen Dulles who was the director of the CIA as MK ULTRA emerged and also the man who has sat the longest in that position.

Some modern authors have described Allen Dulles "as one of the worst traitors in American history, an economic version of Benedict Arnold."
They suggest Dulles was instrumental in financing Nazi Germany.Dulles, according to these authors, created a financial network among Nazi corporations, American oil, and Saudi Arabia. Together with his brother John Foster and Jack Philby, Allen Dulles established an international financial network for the benefit of the Third Reich.
Near the end of World War II, Dulles successfully directed the smuggling of Nazi money back to his Western clients, carefully evading Allied surveillance.
Like Jack Philby, Allen Dulles is also believed to be an "archetypical upper-crust" anti-Semite.

I don't know if anything surprises me anymore...

[edit on 29-6-2010 by Raud]

posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 04:20 AM
*Raud giving thread-CPR*
Live damn it! LIVE!!!

A question that might give this awesome thread a much-needed spark of life:

From Wikipedia (not that I really enjoy sourcing to Wikipedia, but in this case it was the easiest option)

Much of what the Church Committee and the Rockefeller Commission learned about MKULTRA was contained in a report, prepared by the Inspector General's office in 1963, that had survived the destruction of records ordered in 1973. However, it contained little detail.


In 1977, during a hearing held by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, to look further into MKULTRA, Admiral Stansfield Turner, then Director of Central Intelligence, revealed that the CIA had found a set of records, consisting of about 20,000 pages, that had survived the 1973 destruction orders, due to having been stored at a records center not usually used for such documents.

(Emphasis in bold made by me)

Now, the question is; what the hell was in those destroyed documents???
A shy guess would say that the actual number of pages must have been at least ten-fold the destroyed ones.
Where did this information go?
Who possesses the gained knowledge now?
What did they find out that had to be erased from existance;
did they find something in the minds of men that mustn't be know by the outside world, or was it to the contrary; that the entire MK project was all for nothing, besides quenching Gottlieb's and his goons lust for bizarre torture? The latter doesn't make much sense though, especially not since such huge ammounts of money were spent.
All the "wisdom" that came out of the MK projects must have went somewhere else than the furnaces and shredders of some gloomy CIA basement...

That'd be my most current wonderings...

posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 11:07 AM

Originally posted by Raud
Now, the question is; what the hell was in those destroyed documents???

I have considered this question quite a few times in the past several years...

For one...I think only direct references were destroyed. I don't for a second think that all of the data gained (failures are valuable pieces of information as well) was destroyed. Either it is a complete and utter lie presented to the Senate or the records were destroyed but not before the information was catalogued and transferred.

There is a recentish document I looked at when the Pentagon released some documents that implicated a private company with the creation of a "pharmaceutical" database (will find the link soon)...

So to answer the question with my opinion based on legitimate foundation, the records/information likely contained observations, perhaps medical as well as anecdotal, on imposed chemical inductions along with hypnotic encounters...the kind of stuff that leads to control of another human's thoughts and subsequent behaviour...which oddly enough, has more relevance in civilian applications than wartime in my opinion.

As well, I think that remote influencing as to make accountability moot...were very highly considered. I have much reason to consider that aspect of the research and one can take my personal experiences or leave it.

One has to consider the fact that the communication of the records being destroyed...whether they were or an indication of the reality of this realm of experimentation and the breaching of human rights associated.

The guilty have no need to remove or refuse communication.

new topics

top topics

<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in