Bob Lazar Has His Own Particle Accelerator

Originally posted by buddhasystem
If you know of ways to economically store H2 onboard a car, in quantities that allow for decent mileage, and have a highly efficient electrolysis system, publish this info on ATS or elsewhere, with numbers attached.

It seems like the inefficiency of the electrolysis process is a big problem. Lazar certainly doesn't give us the impression he's found a solution to that with all he has to do to produce hydrogen.

But his storage tanks didn't look half bad in the OP video, though he admitted it's just a prototype and the production cars should have tanks mounted outside the passenger compartment like gas tanks are now. He didn't say what kind of miles per gallon he gets, but then again Corvettes aren't known for fuel efficiency in the first place. He did say that he gets similar total miles from those hydride tanks as from a tank of gas.

If I was going to tinker with hydrogen powered prototype cars (something which I've considered doing), I'm not convinced internal combustion engines (as seen in the OP video) are such a great way to use hydrogen. This guy says he's a theoretical physicist and makes a pretty good argument that if you've gone through all that trouble to get hydrogen on-board the car, you might be better off using it in fuel cells:

www.mb-soft.com...

In words, it therefore seems quite simple to have a Fuel Cell produce electricity. However, in practical terms, there are lots of complications! It may still be ten or twenty years before any reliable technology will exist which has tolerable cost.

And WHY is a Fuel Cell such an attractive thing? Why not simply try to BURN the Hydrogen in a conventional engine? There are actually two major reasons. The central one is that modern internal combustion engines only have an overall efficiency of around 21% (up from around 15% in the 1970s), while the fuel cell process has the THEORETICAL CAPABILITY of being nearly 100% efficient (although existing ones are generally around 40% efficient). The second reason is that Fuel Cells provide a CONTROLLED OUTPUT of (electrical) power. In an internal combustion engine, the oxidation of Hydrogen could and would occur in two VERY different ways! The desired on is by Combustion (technically, Conflagration), where the laminar flame front speed is around 8 feet per second at standard temperature and pressure. The undesired process is by Explosion (technically, Detonation), where the flame speed is over 9,000 feet per second, many times the speed of sound and incredibly dangerous! You might notice that NO experts really ever talk about using Hydrogen as an actual FUEL for existing engines (although there are many less educated people who talk about that a lot!) These are the reasons for that!

That last point he makes is pretty relevant to me if I was thinking about doing a conversion like Lazar did. Gasoline engines aren't really designed to run on hydrogen. Obviously you can do it as Lazar demonstrates, but how efficiently and how long will the engine last?

That author is one of the few sources I've read who seems to appreciate the issues with using hydrogen as a fuel. And of course Lazar doesn't say how many engines he has to go though to get 100,000 miles, burning hydrogen instead of gas.

Originally posted by Freezer
I have a lot better things to do than argue with an armchair expert who can only quote wikipedia for knowledge.

I told you two times -- if you have knowledge in any way superior compared to Wiki AND the sources linked to it, make it known. But it's apparent that you don't. BtW I followed hydrogen for a while, and used Wiki as one convenient link, of course you can do your own research but of course you won't, that's too much to ask.

Bob Lazar has already shown that it works

Ah, so Wiki ain't no good but the fantastic Li6D substance stories are! Care to tell me what D is doing there?

I owe nothing to you, and have no inclination to prove to you

Oh no you don't, but I was assuming that you owe it to yourself to not look like a clown. I was wrong.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by Freezer
I have a lot better things to do than argue with an armchair expert who can only quote wikipedia for knowledge.

I told you two times -- if you have knowledge in any way superior compared to Wiki AND the sources linked to it, make it known. But it's apparent that you don't. BtW I followed hydrogen for a while, and used Wiki as one convenient link, of course you can do your own research but of course you won't, that's too much to ask.

Bob Lazar has already shown that it works

Ah, so Wiki ain't no good but the fantastic Li6D substance stories are! Care to tell me what D is doing there?

I owe nothing to you, and have no inclination to prove to you

Oh no you don't, but I was assuming that you owe it to yourself to not look like a clown. I was wrong.

I can see that you are mad bro, sorry you have nothing more than a wikipedia article to bring to the table, that just doesn't garner much motivation for a response. Bob Lazar has demonstrated a working model, to me that is much more convincing that a wiki article.

But you go ahead and keep calling people clowns, it just shows everyone who you really are.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Yes Arb, various problems related to using H2 instead of gasoline in regular engines were discussed a few times in fuel related threads on ATS, you are absolutely right.

AFAIK the fuel cell technology is not cheap enough to be widely used in large devices like cars. It will change, of course, because there are advances in material science, every year.

As to the tank needed to carry enough H2,

Hydrogen has a very low volumetric energy density at ambient conditions, equal to about one-third that of methane. Even when the fuel is stored as liquid hydrogen in a cryogenic tank or in a compressed hydrogen storage tank, the volumetric energy density (megajoules per liter) is small relative to that of gasoline.

That's pretty telling. Bob sure as hell does not liquify H2, so the mileage he gets must be pretty miniscule even with all the tanks stuffed in the vehicle.

And no, he does not use an accelerator to produce kilos of Li6. It's all just a bunch of typical Lazar's nonsense.

Originally posted by Freezer
I can see that you are mad bro, sorry you have nothing more than a wikipedia article to bring to the table

I have education in engineering and science to bring to the table. The Wiki served as a convenient way to aggregate a few facts. You weren't able to prove the quoted facts are incorrect. So there. You still have your chance, by the way.

Bob Lazar has demonstrated a working model, to me that is much more convincing that a wiki article.

Sure, if Bob drives 40 miles before he needs to refill, would you still call it working? What if it's 20 miles? 5?

You know, it's actually still pretty cool even if impractical.

Here is a link that's not from Wiki. OK, commercial cars do 80 miles per huge tank. Does this mean there is lots of future in that tech? It's unclear to say the least.

And back to Lazar:the accelerator part is complete and utter nonsense.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
Sure, if Bob drives 40 miles before he needs to refill, would you still call it working? What if it's 20 miles? 5?

You know, it's actually still pretty cool even if impractical.

Here is a link that's not from Wiki. OK, commercial cars do 80 miles per huge tank. Does this mean there is lots of future in that tech? It's unclear to say the least.

I can't verify this is Lazar's website, but I think it may be since the Corvette pictured looks like the same one in the OP video. I admit I'm skeptical of the claim, but Lazar says he gets 350 miles from 4 tanks. Again this claim more or less matches the OP video claim:

"Standard Range" Hydride tank placement in Corvette.
Driving range with these tanks is just a little over 350 miles and still leaves some usable luggage/trunk room.
( not that the Corvette really had any room to begin with )

Originally posted by buddhasystem
That's pretty telling. Bob sure as hell does not liquify H2, so the mileage he gets must be pretty miniscule even with all the tanks stuffed in the vehicle.

I'm not sure why you talk about Lazar liquifying H2...He doesn't claim to store hydrogen as a gas or a liquid. This explains the hydrogen isn't stored as a gas or a liquid but as a third option:

www.switch2hydrogen.com...

Since you can't make Hydrogen quickly enough to power a car in real time (cars require about 700 liters of Hydrogen gas every MINUTE), so you must produce it separately, and store it as you store your Gasoline fuel supply in your vehicle now.
There are but 3 ways to do this:

1. Store the Hydrogen as a compressed gas.
2. Store the Hydrogen as a liquid.
3. Store the Hydrogen chemically bonded to a chemical....

3. The 3rd option is simply the only way to go. There are materials call Hydrides that absorb Hydrogen like a sponge absorbs water. Typically, the tanks are filled with granulated Hydrides, and Hydrogen is pressurized into the material. Hydrides have many advantages over liquid & gas. One is that the density of the Hydrogen stored in the Hydride can be GREATER than that of liquid Hydrogen. This translates directly into smaller and fewer storage tanks.

Here's the DOE's illustration showing option 3 which does seem to suggest that it may solve some of the problems with gas or liquid hydrogen storage:

www1.eere.energy.gov...

However when I look at commercially available hydride tanks, I don't see how to get 350 miles from 4 tanks that size. I suspect Lazar is "puffing" or inflating claims worse than my laptop maker (I only seem to get about 2/3 of the battery life they claim).

Originally posted by buddhasystem
I have education in engineering and science to bring to the table. The Wiki served as a convenient way to aggregate a few facts. You weren't able to prove the quoted facts are incorrect. So there. You still have your chance, by the way.

Don't even know what facts you are referring too. You are trying to argue that it takes too much space and is too dangerous but totally disregard Lazars tanks, which he has developed to solve those very problems you "quoted".

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Sure, if Bob drives 40 miles before he needs to refill, would you still call it working? What if it's 20 miles? 5?

You know, it's actually still pretty cool even if impractical.

Here is a link that's not from Wiki. OK, commercial cars do 80 miles per huge tank. Does this mean there is lots of future in that tech? It's unclear to say the least.

And back to Lazar:the accelerator part is complete and utter nonsense.

As stated previously he says it's 350 miles a tank. How is that not practical? Not to mention electrolyzers can be powered by solar energy.

reply to post by Arbitrageur

Thanks for posting the info.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
I admit I'm skeptical of the claim, but Lazar says he gets 350 miles from 4 tanks. Again this claim more or less matches the OP video claim

Arb, the video says that he's using a particle accelerator to manufacture Lithium-6 Deuteride. I don't know what matched what here, but after these nonsensical claims it's hard to separate a modicum of truth from tons of chaff. So one is lead to believe that these tanks in the trunk contain LiD? What is that supposed to mean, that he's burning D2? There is no extraction system visible in the trunk in that photo, which means the whole LiH or LiD aspect is a lie aimed at clueless members of the audience. Why should I trust the rest of this presentation?

My take on it is this -- he does have a conversion kit installed in his car, the mileage is nowhere near 350 miles per tank (impossible if you look at the volume of H2 he appears to have stored), and the story about "particle accelerator" is just one of bizarre things he likes to spread around.

Originally posted by Freezer
Don't even know what facts you are referring too. You are trying to argue that it takes too much space and is too dangerous but totally disregard Lazars tanks, which he has developed to solve those very problems you "quoted".

He's saying that it's LiD in the tanks. I have every right to disregard this idiotic statement.

Originally posted by Freezer
As stated previously he says it's 350 miles a tank. How is that not practical? Not to mention electrolyzers can be powered by solar energy.

reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

Thanks for posting the info.

You're welcome, but don't thank me too much. Yes he says 350 miles a tank, but like buddhasystem, I find it hard to believe. Lazar is an interesting character, who mixes fact and fiction and sometimes it's hard to tell which is which.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
I admit I'm skeptical of the claim, but Lazar says he gets 350 miles from 4 tanks. Again this claim more or less matches the OP video claim

Arb, the video says that he's using a particle accelerator to manufacture Lithium-6 Deuteride. I don't know what matched what here, but after these nonsensical claims it's hard to separate a modicum of truth from tons of chaff. So one is lead to believe that these tanks in the trunk contain LiD? What is that supposed to mean, that he's burning D2? There is no extraction system visible in the trunk in that photo, which means the whole LiH or LiD aspect is a lie aimed at clueless members of the audience. Why should I trust the rest of this presentation?

If the claim was made by somebody like Phil Plaitt, I'd at least try to give him the benefit of the doubt. However with Lazar, his credibility is so low already based on lying about his education, element 115 and so on, that he doesn't get any benefit of the doubt...when in doubt I assume that if his lips are moving, he's probably lying.

So I don't trust the guy either. One claim I'm pretty sure is false is his claim about how he's using the particle accelerator. One of the moderators at physicsforums estimated it would take maybe billions of years to make one gram this way, see post 14: www.physicsforums.com...

On the other hand, no he's not claiming to be burning D2, just storing hydrogen, and then releasing the hydrogen with heat. Other than his claim about using an accelerator to make it which doesn't seem credible, it does sound like hydrogen can be stored in lithium-6 deuteride (which is also a thermonuclear fusion fuel as Lazar claims) though I've never tried it:

focusfusion.org...

The corresponding lithium-6 deuteride, formula Li-6-D, is the fusion fuel in thermonuclear weapons. In warheads of the Teller-Ulam design, LiD is compressed and heated by the explosion of the fission primary to the point where fusion occurs. Lithium-6 deuteride, unlike tritium, is non-radioactive. It should be noted, as was discovered when the Castle Bravo nuclear test ran away, that the isotope lithium-7 which makes up the bulk of natural lithium is also subject to neutrons as is lithium-6, when bombarded by fast neutrons.

Lithium-6 deuteride can also be used as a storage vessel for use in hydrogen vehicles. Li-6-D can be made by heating lithium-6 and deuterium gas (from electrolyzing heavy water) in a hermetically sealed container to 600-700 C.

Note they say nothing about using a particle accelerator to make it.

So like usual with Bob Lazar, there appears to be a healthy dose of fiction mixed in with some possible facts and you're right, how are we to sort out which is which when the guy can't be trusted to tell the truth? For all I know he might have Lithium-6 deuteride in those tanks that he bought somewhere, and he didn't use his particle accelerator at all to make it.

Also I don't know any of the details about the legality of buying, manufacturing, or owning thermonuclear fusion fuel like lithium-6 deuteride, in the form of hydrogen storage tanks, and I suspect Lazar's claims in regard to that may also be a mix of fact and fiction...maybe I'll look into that when I have some time.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
So I don't trust the guy either. One claim I'm pretty sure is false is his claim about how he's using the particle accelerator. One of the moderators at physicsforums estimated it would take maybe billions of years to make one gram this way, see post 14: www.physicsforums.com...

I'm not sure about "billions" (depends on the current), but in the very least this would require absolutely biblical amount of electric power. So much for savings. Accelerators used for isotope production cost tens of millions of dollars, like $63M one built recently in Canada. There are reasons for that.

And the bizarre stuff doesn't end there. He says in one publication that the hydride he makes has "different atomic structure". Hmm. Then he says that's a weapon material -- which would be deuteride, not hydride.

On the other hand, no he's not claiming to be burning D2, just storing hydrogen, and then releasing the hydrogen with heat. Other than his claim about using an accelerator to make it which doesn't seem credible, it does sound like hydrogen can be stored in lithium-6 deuteride (which is also a thermonuclear fusion fuel as Lazar claims) though I've never tried it

I do believe that the H2 storage bit in the link you posted made it there from Bob's prior claims, actually. with LiH, hydrogen is produced by breaking up the the bond between Li and H, and leaving behind metallic lithium. If you cave LiD, you can make D2 this way, but not H2. Lithium is not the philosopher's stone and does not cause transmutation. I'm not even talking about the cost of producing D2.

Also, look at the tanks in the video and elsewhere. There is no evidence of any sort of heating system, or even rudimentary heat insulation, and the tanks are casually placed in the back of the car. Yet, to split LiH into Li and H, temperatures in the hundreds degrees C are needed, and from what I read on the web, as high as 1200C. That's one heck of a blast furnace. Bob in his driver seat would be nice and toasty. And crispy.

Further, look at the tanks' combined volume. At the most, the tanks Bob presented make up a volume comparable to a normal gasoline tank. Even if (and it's a big Even if) they were filled with liquid H2, having the maximum possible quantity of H2 stored -- they would contain only 1/4 of the energy of same amount of gasoline, due to the ratio of their volumetric energy density. This in itself means that 350 miles (in some places quoted 450 miles) claim is an utter, shameless lie. Well that's the main reason I'm disgusted with Bob.

edit to add:
Look at the table on that page.
The decomposition reaction starts at 700C and to be effective the temps need to be higher. Just supporting my observations in the above post. Note that there are other substances that can operate at 350-400, but it's not LiH.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
I do believe that the H2 storage bit in the link you posted made it there from Bob's prior claims, actually. with LiH, hydrogen is produced by breaking up the the bond between Li and H, and leaving behind metallic lithium. If you cave LiD, you can make D2 this way, but not H2.

That would be interesting if that's what happened.

Also, look at the tanks in the video and elsewhere. There is no evidence of any sort of heating system, and the tanks are casually placed in the back of the car.

Did you watch the OP video? At a minute and a half in the video he points out some wires going into the tanks that he says are for the electrical heaters and temperature sensors. I don't believe a lot of what he says, like the 350 mile claim, but that certainly looks plausible to be power for an electrical heater in the tank, doesn't it? The temperatures are required to liberate the hydrogen depend on a number of things. If it's pure Lithium hydride, you're right that the temperatures are very high. But by adding other substances (such as ammonia) to the Lithium, you can lower the temperature required to liberate hydrogen quite a bit.

Further, look at their volume. At the most, the tanks Bob presented make up a volume comparable to a normal gasoline tank. Even if (and it's a big Even if) they were filled with liquid H2, having the maximum possible quantity of H2 stored -- they would contain only 1/4 of the energy of same amount of gasoline. This in itself means that 350 miles (in some places quoted 450 miles) claim is utter, shameless lie. Well that's the main reason I'm disgusted with Bob.

Yeah he says almost 400 miles in the video. And he claims the storage density of hydrogen in the hydride is even greater than liquid hydrogen, which doesn't sound credible. I think he'd be lucky to get 100 miles from those 4 tanks as far as I can tell, not 350-400 miles.

I do have to give him credit for one thing though...at least he debunks the scam that you can run your car on water (or improve the gas mileage with HHO kits):

www.switch2hydrogen.com...

He has to debunk the other scam so he can promote his own scam. Interestingly, he doesn't seem to be selling these storage tanks (probably partly because nobody would ever get 350 miles from those 4 tanks as we suspect). He seems to be working on releasing a hydrogen generator but there's no pricing or product details available yet, just a photo of a prototype he says won't resemble the final product. www.switch2hydrogen.com...

So it appears these magical tanks that can store energy as densely as Lazar claims will remain "unobtanium" or in other words, the product of Lazar's lies, unless somebody else can find them for sale on Lazar's website...I couldn't.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
Did you watch the OP video? At a minute and a half in the video he points out some wires going into the tanks that he says are for the electrical heaters and temperature sensors.

Ah! You are right. I watched the video many times but not recently in its entirety. Now that's interesting, and yes I see the cables. Of course it still leaves open the question of thermal insulation. What I see in the vid are pretty standard looking pressure bottles, and they should conduct heat easily, making the interior uninhabitable.

The temperatures are required to liberate the hydrogen depend on a number of things. If it's pure Lithium hydride, you're right that the temperatures are very high. But by adding other substances (such as ammonia) to the Lithium, you can lower the temperature required to liberate hydrogen quite a bit.

But this way you are chopping away at the valuable storage volume. I posted a list of substances with lower decomposition temps, but they contain proportionally less H. Not to mention that Bob is very explicit about LiH (until he starts talking complete nonsense about LiD).

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
He has to debunk the other scam so he can promote his own scam. Interestingly, he doesn't seem to be selling these storage tanks (probably partly because nobody would ever get 350 miles from those 4 tanks as we suspect). He seems to be working on releasing a hydrogen generator but there's no pricing or product details available yet, just a photo of a prototype he says won't resemble the final product. www.switch2hydrogen.com...

Quite an interesting link. I noticed that the "later model" tanks do not have electric wires attached to them, just a pressure hose. It's not easy to read all the labeling on tanks, but in some pictures I can figure out that it says "DANGER - HYDROGEN". That's hard to reconcile with what Bob said about this storage system being completely harmless and safer than gasoline.

I also noticed that there is one statement on this site that's a patent lie (I'm sure there are more). It says that LiH contains more hydrogen per unit volume than liquid H2. If you do the numbers, you'll see that he's more than an order of magnitude off.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
If you do the numbers, you'll see that he's more than an order of magnitude off.

I only have numbers for commercially available products. I couldn't find any reliable numbers for particle accelerator-enhanced magic foofoo dust.