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Was the Fatima Miracle a Mass UFO Sighting

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posted on May, 20 2010 @ 07:46 PM
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reply to post by gortex
 


I have some problems with those descriptions, because they do not report the whole event, as you can see by the expression "The last episode was the miracle itself".

The first episode was the appearance of the Lady of the Rosary on a small tree, like in the other occasions, and she told Lucia that they should make a chapel in her honour and they should keep on praying the rosary every day. She said that the war would be over soon and the troops could go back to their homes.

When Lucia asked if she was going to heal the sick and convert the sinners she answered that some yes, some no, and that they needed to make amends and ask for forgiveness of their sins. She added that people should not offend god more, that was already very offended.

Then she opened their hands and started to move upwards, and while that was happening Lucia noticed the sun and told everyone to look at the sun, and then the miracle of the sun happened.

This was the sixth time the lady appeared to the shepherds.

The whole story doesn't sound like a UFO event as much as the last episode.


PS: the link I posted to the photos on the other thread is not working, but here is the new link, with the 13 photos taken at the time by the photographer from the newspaper "O Século".

PPS: now you have three sceptics on your thread.




posted on May, 20 2010 @ 08:03 PM
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Originally posted by gortex
Great...............now I've got Phage and Rex on my back , it's a skeptic gang up .
Beam me up Scotty


Well, say what they will, it doesn't negate the possibility that a UFO could have positioned itself at such an angle, at such a time, with the right distance, to appear to eclipse the sun.

Of course the sun doesn't appear to be two, nor zig or zag, or appear to fall down to earth. But it is within (my) imagination, that UFO's could.
One to eclipse the sun (after a manner) and the other to put on the show.

Why not? However unlikely it might be, it's possible.

Edit to add this:


[edit on 5/20/2010 by ladyinwaiting]



posted on May, 20 2010 @ 08:20 PM
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Okay, nevermind. I just looked at the pictures A.map posted the link for and decided this: It's Divine.



posted on May, 20 2010 @ 09:20 PM
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Im glad that we can all agree on nothing. Makes this sight more interesting



posted on May, 28 2010 @ 09:09 PM
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This "miracle" is very important, hope the issue gets more attention.

The evidence I see suggests this is a major deception, with the occult fingerprints all over it. Start with the fact that the occult number "13" is very prominent, first apparition, May 13, 6 months of apparitions all on the 13th of the month, culminating in the October 13th "miracle". This should at least get the antennae up you would think, for those who know how important this number is to our occultist masters.

At this point, if you are Catholic, probably best to just skip, Fatima is a powerful part of your paradigm, if even a small grain of sand dislodges from the foundation, the entire edifice could crumble, don't risk it. As for the rest, the Fatima tradition contains elements that actually contradict important traditional Catholic beliefs, and this is significant, even if it may not appear to be for those not familiar with this particular system.

Here is a critical example...In Catholicism, holy communion, the wafer given at mass during communion, is actually God Himself. It is Jesus, and as such, the communion wafer in traditional Catholicism could never be touched by anyone other than the priest, who's fingers were especially "consecrated" at his ordination to the priesthood. This is a bit hard for modern Catholics to grasp perhaps, since today anyone can jump out of their pew and help distribute communion, but not so long ago, it was absolutely Verbotten, and on very good theological grounds. If you were a good Catholic, you might even read stories about how the "guardian angel" of the priest would have to walk a "step behind" the priest after the consecration (when the wafer becomes Jesus), since the priest's dignity, by virtue of his ability to consecrate (literally call down God Almighty), even exceeded the dignity of the holy angels. Keep this in mind, even though it has supposedly gone down the Memory Hole...

At Fatima, in 1916, we actually begin with an angel. This angel gives Communion to the children! Look it up. At the time, this would have been considered a big problem, but no matter! The church would even send another bishop from Rome to make sure the "message" didn't get messed up. Here is a smoking gun, something is not right.

As for the humble parish priest, Fr. Ferreira, if you asked him, he thought the whole thing was from SATAN! Imagine! But the children would not tell him anything, even under the seal of the confessional. He knew something was not right.

A lot more to it than this reader's digest, but if you can, try to play the part of the "devil's advocate", and at least consider the possibility.

As for the UFO possibility, yes, there is evidence here too that is disturbing. The earliest reports from these kids tell a different story than the official version we know today. Published as Os Mouros Fatimidas e as Aparicoes de Fatima, in these initial interviews done by the parish priest, we read that little Jacinta still didn't have her story right. She describe the "Virgin" as wearing a rather short skirt, wearing white socks, having earrings and a medallion, and having large black eyes. Keep in mind, even hookers in that part of the world, at the time, did not dare to go out in a short skirt! No wonder the scholarly Fr. Dhanis, the university professor, would later urge the Church to stick with early accounts. He was seeing that the story was changing as the years went on.

There is so much more, including the fact that the "miracle" used by the church as evidence that God is behind the whole thing, the case of the cured paralytic Maria Santos, note how her medical records are conveniently missing. Last one: With all the photos, why nothing of the Sun itself, especially with all the reporters on hand? And on, and on.

Do not be deceived. The incredible power of religion to enslave our minds has long been recognized by our masters. Take the cage off your .s.

JR MacBeth



posted on May, 28 2010 @ 11:15 PM
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There was no sun that day.. it was a cloudy day and the UFO appearing like the sun, parted the clouds above the crowd.. what's the big deal, why are people talking about 2 suns?

The children were informed of the event prior to it happening.. this does not discount either for or against the argument of it being religious or ET

The crowd was diverse and full of sceptics and socialists, it was not a mass hallucination event brought on by religous hysteria.

For this UFO incident to be written off as a bunch of people staring up at the sun would be funny if it wasn't so ridiculous.

To top it all off.. the Virgin appeared in a short dress, with a nice medalion and earrings.. intergalatically fabulous!!



posted on May, 28 2010 @ 11:22 PM
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reply to post by phoenixrising10
 

Out of an estimated 70,000 in attendance, how many direct reports are there of the miracle?

The implication is that because there were 70,000 there, it was seen by all. Was it?


[edit on 5/29/2010 by Phage]



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by phoenixrising10
 

Out of an estimated 70,000 in attendance, how many direct reports are there of the miracle?

The implication is that because there were 70,000 there, it was seen by all. Was it?


[edit on 5/29/2010 by Phage]


No, not everyone saw the same thing. Some people didn't even see anything. Although I believe something happened that day, whatever it was. There are a few things people forgot to consider when they talk about this event. First the woman that the kids saw never called herself Mary, she just said to build a place for the "Lady of the Rosary" (ancient pagan practice) Second, she did not look at all like Mary. She was short, only around three feet and was a teenager. She also has a skirt that only went down to her knees (Extremely inappropriate at the time), big hoop earrings and completely black eyes. And what makes me think that this event was planned was the strategic location (Although the visions AND the "Sun miracle" both happened around two miles away in the "Cova da Iria" fields not "Fatima") Fatima is the name of Muhammad's daughter, and many comparisons to her and Mary are made. They got this event known as "Our Lady of Fatima", not "Our Lady of Cova da Iria", isn't that interesting? And this isn't a Muslim miracle, praying the Rosary is a catholic practice, and building a temple to praise Mary and not God is rather blasphemous. (Also, her appearance to the children was hugely indecent according to their religion). So I think this was an elaborate plot to try and unite the two religions and strengthen the catholic church. The way they portray Mary is identical to ancient Goddess worship. The one thing I am still trying to figure out is, was this an elaborate trick or scheme by the church, or was it actually somehow related to the "Mother Goddess" that so many religions can be traced to. If this was what we consider a "supernatural event" and the church actually had nothing to do with it other than twisting the story to have a catholic message, the question still remains whether or not the intentions of whatever it was were actually in out best interest and for our good. I believe a lot of this stuff seems manipulative.

Here is a big thread that was made on this event which shows the oddly "Extra terrestrial and UFO" like elements of this story

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And here is a thread I made examining the "Mother goddess" and the "Female aspect of God" throughout religious history. The Talmud mentions that God made a female incarnation of himself that was more gentle to do deeds and deal with people on earth, and also dwell in temples made for her (later adapted in to the holy spirit)

www.abovetopsecret.com...

After all of the info I have read, whether or not this event was planned, the intention seems manipulative and like a bad thing. And all of the other things connected to the "Mother Goddess" and "Queen of Heaven", even if there actually is a person they are serving, It looks like manipulative extra terrestrials to me, and they don't look like good guys.

[edit on 29-5-2010 by NamelessMonster]

[edit on 29-5-2010 by NamelessMonster]



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 04:34 PM
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reply to post by NamelessMonster
 


I agree with much of what you are highlighting Nameless, this deception will ultimately play out in keeping with it's official name, however they say they arrived at it. "Fatima" actually says a whole lot already. As Mohammad's most virginal daughter, Fatima does bear the closest resemblance to the Catholic Mary.

I believe there is a "unification plan" concerning religion that is operating on various levels. While I don't particularly buy into the usual definitions of ETs, they are sure to play their part in this play as well.

If you are a religionist of some form, then you probably agree that you are seeing things in the various denominations that tend to unification. Various agreements are made, Lutherans and Catholics issuing joint statements, Anglicans and Presbyterians reaching out to gays, conservative elements being marginalized, the popes meeting with other religious leaders, etc. Even Muslims are "working together" more today than ever, since they were "united" we might say, by their common enemy, the Western world.

At some point, it all must come together in what I call the coming "slave religion". As usual, our masters are way a. of us. They know that the most important amalgamation will be Christian and Muslim. Together, these two groups account for the better part of the non-Asian world. But they are going to go one better than just a merger of two groups of seemingly contradictory "faiths". They are after the really Big Tent! They have come up with a "One World" solution for religion that even includes Hindus, New Agers, and Buddhists. Imagine that!

Is it a preposterous idea, that ideologies so far apart could somehow come together? Think again. The one-worldwide religion of the future is actually already here, but it is currently in stealth-mode, so most would never even guess. But our masters value the power of religion, they always have.

Like ML King, Jr, our masters also have a dream. One day, they will sit down to a banquet, and they shall be waited upon hand and foot by their slaves, and they shall have no worry that their slaves will do them harm, for they learned that lesson long ago. Outside, on their vast plantation (the planet), the slaves will toil, and they shall do it willingly, from cradle to grave they shall toil, and so shall their children, and grandchildren, etc. And our masters shall rule a Utopian (for them) world, forever, and ever, Amen.

Fatima, though it happened so long ago, mark well, it will one day come in very handy when the time is right for the Big Merger.

It's all in the simplicity, and the Power, of One. As Hitler once said, "Ein Folk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer!" Sich hiel. Stay tuned fellow slaves, it's going to be an interesting ride!

JR MacBeth
MyBlog: Gathering Storms A.



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 10:10 PM
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reply to post by JR MacBeth
 



Check out that last thread I linked to, the ultimate unifying themes have been found. The Divine Mother. And I think the Catholic Church is already trying to ease people in to it. Other groups are now popping up and noticing these common themes and symbols, connecting them together for one common goal. And like I said earlier, I highly doubt it is for our good in the end.

[edit on 29-5-2010 by NamelessMonster]



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 11:12 PM
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People are naturally trying to figure out the mechanics and physics behind an event like this, like the sun doing what it did, but it doesn't make much sense scientifically like the sun spinning and zigzagging, (which in today's paradigm would be thought by many to have been a ufo instead)....
But if this was an event that God brought about, which is the entire premise given by the main witnesses, then there could be lots of things that would not conform to any normal behavior of physics....
I have had many visions and have been given many warnings in visions and let me just say that you can see all kinds of things that have nothing in common with what you would expect from physics here, wether it be ufo or earthly behavior. The human mind is so fragile that you could have a stunning prophetic vision today, and by noontime tomorrow you would start doubting that it even happened.. but then many years after would rememeber it and then realize it something special meant for you, and then it would all fall in to place...
The message being given won't always be easily believable or make sense to those that didn't witness it originally, let alone those that DID see it. Perhaps until much later.

[edit on 29-5-2010 by alienreality]



posted on May, 29 2010 @ 11:51 PM
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Originally posted by alienreality
People are naturally trying to figure out the mechanics and physics behind an event like this, like the sun doing what it did, but it doesn't make much sense scientifically like the sun spinning and zigzagging, (which in today's paradigm would be thought by many to have been a ufo instead)....
But if this was an event that God brought about, which is the entire premise given by the main witnesses, then there could be lots of things that would not conform to any normal behavior of physics....
I have had many visions and have been given many warnings in visions and let me just say that you can see all kinds of things that have nothing in common with what you would expect from physics here, wether it be ufo or earthly behavior. The human mind is so fragile that you could have a stunning prophetic vision today, and by noontime tomorrow you would start doubting that it even happened.. but then many years after would rememeber it and then realize it something special meant for you, and then it would all fall in to place...
The message being given won't always be easily believable or make sense to those that didn't witness it originally, let alone those that DID see it. Perhaps until much later.

[edit on 29-5-2010 by alienreality]


If you read what has been said about it in the larger thread that I linked to, it was not the sun. People stated that it was not in the direction of the sun, and the first comments on it said it was "like a sun", did not hurt the eyes and was silver.



posted on May, 30 2010 @ 12:15 AM
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Yep I know it was not the sun, but was mentioning those things about the incident in trying to rationalize it all... But as I was saying in my post, these things that happen mostly will never have any explanation at all and sometimes the very fabric of reality is pulled down and people experience "impossible" things, like what happened in this event at Fatima

[edit on 30-5-2010 by alienreality]



posted on May, 30 2010 @ 03:20 AM
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Originally posted by NamelessMonster
First the woman that the kids saw never called herself Mary, she just said to build a place for the "Lady of the Rosary" (ancient pagan practice) Second, she did not look at all like Mary. She was short, only around three feet and was a teenager. She also has a skirt that only went down to her knees (Extremely inappropriate at the time), big hoop earrings and completely black eyes.



Your description conflicts with the children's answers provided in the main original interviews with Manual Formigao in September and October of 1917:


October 13th interview:
"Did the Lady say who she was?"
Lucia: "She said that she was the Lady of the Rosary."

Sept 27th interview:
"How is she dressed?"
Lucia:"She has a white dress, which reaches to her feet, and her . was covered with a mantle, the same colour and the same length."
"Is there any belt or ribbon?"
"No."
"Her earrings? "
"They are little rings."


September 27/1917:
"How is she dressed?"
Francisco: "She has a long dress, and over it a mantle which covers her .."
..."And what does she wear on her ears?"
"You cannot see her ears, because they are covered by the mantle."


//////
Three feet high? Even if children did say such a thing, are you really going to place stock in the accuracy of an 8 year-old's ability(or rather inability) to guess height measurements of a lady standing on a cloud that is floating at the top of a tree?


Completely black eyes? That's according to author Joaquim Fernandes, life long UFO enthusiast that profits by selling books that portray the Lady as an alien.


She appeared as a teenage girl( to pre-teen children with the instruction that they should pray the Rosary every day)? Irrelevant. Nothing is proved by the vision appearing as a teenage girl.


[edit on 30-5-2010 by Phantomfire707]



posted on May, 30 2010 @ 02:25 PM
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reply to post by Phantomfire707
 


That description given of her was made later than the other. Check the very large Fatima thread I linked to earlier and read through it, it has a lot of good information.

This may not be as reliable, but here is a page with some info on he appearance. Go to the section titled "Visions of Mary"

www.miraclesceptic.com...



posted on May, 30 2010 @ 04:31 PM
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interesting



posted on May, 30 2010 @ 04:54 PM
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Perhaps the incidents were part of a plan to bring religious denominations together as was suggested. An interesting theory. I certainly can see how a lot of earth religious experience could possibly be alien/ET - or you could look at it the other way around.

However, if this was the attempt, it does not seem to have had much effect that way. I note Persinger was part of the list of scientists supporting a UFO theory on the Fatima incidents. I think he believes that much of religious (and UFO) experience is created by the effect of electrical fields on the brain, producing a profound sense of awe through hallucinations.

In any case, I do think that there is something highly intelligent behind the UFO phenomena which has many abilities that seem supernatural to us - it might be gods/angels with powers over nature or physical beings with technologies which are far more advanced than anything we are remotely capable of.



posted on May, 30 2010 @ 06:47 PM
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The Fatima Truth will decisively demonstrate it's true origin within the period of 2010 to 2014.


The years 2013-2014 are decisive, for particular reasons that:

in order to vindicate the use of the number 13 an event of utmost relevance to the Fatima prophecies must occur in the "13th year, of the 3rd millennium" or in 2013.
That is the singular good reason I can think of that God would choose to use the number 13. Otherwise, in the absence of such a clear and justifiable reason for the choice of 13 (the 13th year), the Fatima events would instead be deeply burdened by their connection of 13 to the final book of the Bible. I'm referring to Revelations chapter 13 verse 13 about the end-times and false prophet: "And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men."(Rev.13:13)

Either Revelations 13:13 is a warning about the miracle of the the fiery Sun which came down from the sky in full view of men, performed on October 13th by false entities, or it is a warning about a false demonic prophet at the end of days that uses imitation miracles in attempt to discredit the miracles, messages, and fulfilled warnings of God given to the world in 1917 on the 13th's. The Pharaoh's sorcerer's imitated the first 3 of God's miracles performed by Moses.


The choice of the number 13 in connection to major events in the 13th year, would be the same in regards to a Divine choice of the year 1917 for the Fatima events to occur. 1917 was the year the atheistic communists gained control of Russia through revolution. The Fatima prophecies are centrally about the "errors of Russia"(religious persecutions and wars) which begun anew with the godless communists taking power in 1917. The Third Secret is also very much centered on predictions about a terrifying future Russia.

-


The years 2010-2012 are decisive, for the truth about Fatima(demonic or God-given), for the particular reasons that:


The Vatican has demonstrated very clearly by their behavior, that the Third Secret of Fatima contained a prediction of a specific deadline for the commencement(or outbreak) of the events that would plunge the world towards the fulfillment of the Fatima prophecy.

It means(evidence to follow), that for the Third Secret of Fatima to successfully materialize and demonstrate itself as originating from God rather than from other entities, it starts with:
1)a deadline of the "year 2000" supplied by the Third Secret for the critical commencement of events, and
2)the 1999 "end of the century" war involving Serbia-Kosovo-Nato-USA-(and verbally Russia), and
3)the direct continuation of the 1999 conflict, nearly a decade latter, by means of Kosovo unilaterally declaring it's independence, and
4)the much anticipated International Court of Justice ruling in the 2nd half of 2010(which was initiated by the votes of 77 nations, an interesting number) over the legality of Kosovo's Independence...
....all constituting the chain of events that would provide the fuel that would spark the world towards the dark times of the Fatima Prophecies fulfillment. It would therefore be necessary that the explosive outbreak of the Fatima events to "vividly begin" with Russia using it's military in support of Serbia against Kosovo's independence. The Fatima chastisement leads to Russia, and through Russia to the world. Serb leaders have said they will never give up Kosovo. Kosovo leaders have said they will never allow Serbs to regain control over Kosovo. The Serb FM today called Kosovo, "our Jerusalem." Serbian election of hardliners over Kosovo by mid 2012 would be critical if war hadn't broken out by then.

The evidence and facts:

In 1995 Pope John Paul II warned that the "WORDS" of the Fatima prophecies seemed near fulfillment for the end of the 20th century. He wrote: "At first I did not pay attention to the fact that the assassination attempt had occurred on the exact anniversary of the day Mary appeared to the three children at Fatima in Portugal and spoke to them the words that now, at the END OF THIS CENTURY, SEEM TO BE CLOSE TO THEIR FULFILLMENT" (page 221 of the Pope's book Crossing the Threshold of Hope).

It's unlikely that the Pope would make such a public comment about the 3rd Secret without the Third Secret itself mentioning "the end of the 20th century" as a deadline for climax or commencement.

In the year 2000, we can discern for near certain that the Third Secret contained a deadline of the end of the 20th century. Suddenly, after the start of the year 2000, the Vatican completely reverses the position held by the Pope of 1995 and announces to the world that the Third Secret is past tense, that it was fulfilled in 1981 and repeating constantly that it was a vision for the "20th century." That's the reaction and words of people that know that a deadline of the 20th century is attached to the Prophecy.


The Vatican released a wordless vision that contained zero words spoken by Mary in contradiction to Pope John Paul II's 1995 comment that the prophecy that was nearing fulfillment at the end of the 20th century involved "WORDS" that "Mary...spoke". Thus demonstrating, that the Vatican is hiding the sensitive WORDS that speak of "end of the 20th century" deadline for the commencement of events.


But, in case of the Fatima prophecy reviving itself and proving itself in the future as a fulfilled prophecy from God--and therefore compelling the Vatican to backtrack and release the rest of the Third Secret(the WORDS of MARY) at the onset of the prophesied chastisement--the Vatican took the precaution of minimizing future problems by making known the gist of the Third Secret so they could claim that at least they did reveal the "ESSENCE" of the Third Secret in June/2000. Cardinal Ratzinger revealed in the Third Secret Commentary this essence when he wrote:
"Sister Lucia had already given an indication for interpreting the third part of the “secret” in a letter to the Holy Father, dated 12 May 1982: The third part of the secret refers to Our Lady's words: ‘If not [Russia] will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated'"

If the Pope reveals the Third Secret in the future, the evidence exists that would shed light on whether the Pope is telling the truth or using the Third Secret for nefarious purposes.

[edit on 30-5-2010 by Phantomfire707]



posted on May, 30 2010 @ 07:27 PM
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reply to post by Phantomfire707
 


You sound like a believer, but I'm not sure you have really read the other side of this issue fully. I do see that you seem to agree that the number "13" has at least the appearance of being problematic, even though I agree with what you say, "if" it merely points to a date/time, in the truly prophetic sense, i.e., as a "warning", then it could be legit in the end. The final chapter hasn't been written (or re-written, ah, that's another story!).

I think it is a mistake to continue to look to the Vatican for any kind of "truth". As you know, and those who follow these kinds of issues, the "Third Secret" officially released is largely regarded as only partial, or perhaps even completely false, even by the faithful (usually those on the more conservative end of the spectrum). If this is the general consensus, that we have no real revelation (yet) on the matter, then how could it help to reveal that this Secret was "right", after the fact? Wouldn't everyone say that hindsight was 20/20, and it's value diminished, if not completely discredited? Perhaps I misunderstood what you said, but the essential indisputable worth of any "prophesy" is that it is known a. of time, and then it comes true. So far, this isn't what has ever been happening with Fatima. You realize that the evidence is all the other way. Even the Lucia predictions of WW2's commencement are questionable, at best.

How about the fact that the 3rd secret was to be revealed "no later than 1960"? Rather convenient that nothing comes out, except the news that something was "supposed" to come out. Does God really work this way?

In addition to these more or less debatable things, and things that have not yet come to pass, it does seem like there are other ways to examine the veracity of what is going on here. Perhaps you have not read my initial post above, in this thread. What of poor Fr. Ferreira, the humble parish priest? Here we have a sincere and simple man, who knew these children, who knew the community, etc. His opinion was that the whole thing was from Satan. You mention Canon Formagao? He was sent by the Vatican, if I recall correctly, precisely because, if the matter was left to the simple priest, we would come to an entirely different conclusion!

What would you think if YOU were the priest, and you asked the children to tell you the truth, and even offered them the seal of the confessional, and they still refused to obey? This, and other matters, should make a good Catholic wonder, at the very least.

What about communion, from an Angel? I know that in the modern church today, anyone can handle and even mishandle the communion wafer, but back in 1916, there was an entirely different state of affairs. Read my post above, if you are curious. This is one that should bother at least the more conservative or traditional Catholics out there.

In the end, people of good will should be able to see that something is not quite right here. But, the implications, if it turns out that Fatima is in fact a deception, will be massively detrimental to the believer. Their last anchor will disappear.

But then, that was perhaps the plan all along...

JR MacBeth
MyBlog: Gathering Storms A.



posted on May, 30 2010 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by Phantomfire707
in order to vindicate the use of the number 13 an event of utmost relevance to the Fatima prophecies must occur in the "13th year, of the 3rd millennium" or in 2013.

The 13th year of the 2rd millennium is 2012, not 2013.



The choice of the number 13 in connection to major events in the 13th year, would be the same in regards to a Divine choice of the year 1917 for the Fatima events to occur. 1917 was the year the atheistic communists gained control of Russia through revolution.

The first apparition was in 1916, although it was only a figure like a person wrapped in a sheet, nothing like the 1.1 metre (closer to 4 feet than to 3) high, short skirt figure they saw from May to October 1917.



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