Consider Agnosticism

It's so easy for so many people to pass judgment on someones beliefs, and since the debate right now consist of something that at this point and time can't be proven, I feel keeping an open mind and walking the middle ground is by far the best bet.

There are numerous intelligent atheist out there who's theory's on why god doesn't exist are incredibly valid, and swaying as well. Then there are some arguments from people of faith with the same effect, but the bottom line is we cant prove either at this point in time.

I think this little cartoon explains it quite well (not done by me) while some might see it leaning more towards the side of pro faith, I see it more as an even bigger reason to keep your mind open to any possibility.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/788307f5d408.gif[/atsimg]

Now before someone goes and call's me someone with a faith centered view, see this other thread by me on some intelligent atheist, here.

I try to keep an open mind and walk the center of the road, you can call me a coward for not picking a side, but i don't see why its cowardice to keep your mind open to all plausible possibility's, when really either side could be right or wrong.

[edit on 5/15/2010 by Alaskan Man]

Pretty much.... just believe because there's no evidence for or against....

This is applicable to other things.

Harry Potter goes to school via a brick wall like thing in a train station, but you got to run into this brick wall thing, and believe you'll go to hogwarts.

Now, we have footage of how this would look in the harry potter film.

Now personally I believe you can do this at any train station.... and you should to, because you can't disprove this, so just ya know, everytime your thinking about trains and stuff, imagine yourself running full force into a brick wall

reply to post by Alaskan Man


That's why I consider myself an agnostic atheist (look it up there is such a thing). I don't rule out the remote possibility of a higher power/god but since there is no evidence I don't believe in one.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


I don't believe in any specific one, and i would never fallow any religion, i just keep an open mind to the possibility that there is some sort of higher power of some sort.

reply to post by Republican08


haha your argument is sort of lacking, really their are much better metaphors out there to prove what your saying. (sorry i just hate HP lol)


Did you not see the men who stare at goats? You can totally run threw walls! Well if you have the mind of a Jedi that is


Edited to add: and i don't "believe" as you stated. I am open to the possibility is all, that doesn't mean i believe in anything, i was just using the cartoon as an example of something being there, doesn't mean there is actually something there, theirs just the possibility.

We dont have proof of alien life, but i still think its possible, doesn't mean i am on one side of the argument or the other, I'm just open to the argument.

p.s.s. (sorry this wasn't done by the time you had already replied)

[edit on 5/15/2010 by Alaskan Man]

Originally posted by Alaskan Man
reply to post by Republican08

 

haha your argument is sort of lacking, really their are much better metaphors out there to prove what your saying. (sorry i just hate HP lol)


Did you not see the men who stare at goats? You can totally run threw walls! Well if you have the mind of a Jedi that is

I was recently forced to watch harry potter.... I don't get whats so great about it either.... just some ugly kid everyone hails as great, but if you notice, he never does anything, it's always everyone else helping him out.

That guy running into the wall, true story! Made me laugh watching it.

For an all powerful god to exist, then i can not exist, because i can not have any of his/its/her power.

That is cold logic.

There may be great powers, perhaps even relatively god-like,

but all powerful is simply a logic conundrum.

So all the religions claiming all powerful gods are inherently fraudulent.

Even if there is a near or quasi-god trying to tyrannize me, WTF would i, an independent person want that?

Technically i am agnostic, & a virtual atheist.

And if any stupid, tyrannical god, or god-like thing shows up, it is my natural, organic enemy & will be eliminated by me as soon as possible.

Why do people want to be tyrannized?
Do you not have any self-respect?
Do you really think even some loving idiot is going to take better care of you than you?

An idiot who loves you will easily do you more harm than good.
A cold brilliant intellect may be a genius, but not give a whit about you.
What one should prefer if anything is someone with a balance of caring AND intellect.
And that would be yourself or some other caring but thoughtful person not unlike yourself. And doing for ourselves under most circumstances is the most efficient production method.

Our brains are 10 billion neurons working together.
Seems to me the best form of society is probably democracy, not tyranny where you have insane swings between pot luck of occasional smart caring people & much more often vain egotistical, corrupt & cynical idiots.

[edit on 15-5-2010 by slank]

I agree.

I think that people who are atheists might harbor anger that causes them to kind of "revolt" and say there is no god. That was the case for me before I learned of agnosticism. Also, with people who believe in god, you find it isn't just a belief in god. I would say most people are pushed into religions as children, and they learn to have prejudices and all kinds of bizarre beliefs before they learn critical thinking skills. Not that it really matters since faith is completely about NOT using critical thinking skills...

So, if someone wants to believe in god, I say fine. But the second someone starts saying "I know what god wants and likes. I'm a good person according to "his word," and you're going to burn in hell because you're a bad person who doesn't believe." That's when I say that that person has been had. I don't care WHAT your book says - whichever one you enjoy trying to make sense of; you're not god yourself, and you need to keep your mouth shut and stop judging people and feeling privileged. That is what tells me "Hey, this is wrong."

Look into ignosticism as well. It goes a step further than agnosticism by saying "First of all, what is god? How do you define that?" Ignostics believe that the discussion of god is meaningless unless everyone discussing agrees on exactly what god would be (or gods). If you ask people to define god/s, well they don't know...other than that god is some male figure who knows everything and is everywhere at all times or other very general things like that.

I personally think it is beyond the mind of any human to know god. I don't care if you saw a figure coming from the sky and doing miracles. You still would never know what you're seeing. Is is god? Or maybe it's just a demi-god? Maybe it's an alien? Maybe you're hallucinating? Certainly people THESE days don't go around "hearing the voice of god" then writing about it as "the word of god." Try it and find yourself in a psych ward PDQ.

This is most excellent.

S and F many many times over.

I cannot believe in a god, i.e. creator of all, who would create a reality such as this then not be personally involved in it. Without any type of personal revelation (not in the catastrophic sense of the word) that god would have no intimate (not in the sexual sense of the word) connection to his/her/its creation. An impersonal god wouldn't care, if not care then why create in the first place. If creation is only for such a god's selfish purposes then free will shouldn't exist. That said a true agnostic who has at least a modicum of understanding about the reality he/she lives in should be actively searching for that route to knowing that personal god.

Also disagree with me if you want but agnosticism often seems like a cowards approach to atheism or by extension to nihilism and moral relativism. If you don't believe in a personal god then there is no eternal hope. If no hope then your death now or in 50 years, doesn't matter, may as well die now. If you don't die now your are either a 1) coward or 2) a liar who doesn't really believe what you say you believe.



[edit on 15-5-2010 by slane69]

[edit on 15-5-2010 by slane69]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
I don't rule out the remote possibility of a higher power/god but since there is no evidence I don't believe in one.

The thing is, though, if God exists, what evidence would one expect to see ?
I've heard people before bemoaning a lack of evidence for God, yet when pushed, they don't really know what evidence they are looking for.

I personally believe that there is no way to empirically or scientifically answer the question, and I believe that all belief/disbelief stems from personal experience, as opposed to any tangible evidence.


[edit on 16-5-2010 by Conspiracy Chicks fan !]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Actually friend no one meets the criteria for an atheist let alone an agnostic athiest.

Originally posted by slane69
Also disagree with me if you want but agnosticism often seems like a cowards approach to atheism or by extension to nihilism and moral relativism. If you don't believe in a personal god then there is no eternal hope. If no hope then your death now or in 50 years, doesn't matter, may as well die now. If you don't die now your are either a 1) coward or 2) a liar who doesn't really believe what you say you believe.

I disagree. I don't think someone needs to to pick one side of the argument just for the sake of it. That in itself, could be construed as slightly weak.
I'm objectively agnostic, purely because it is impossible to know one way or the other, without your belief/disbelief being slanted by subjective, personal experiences.

As the OP is pointing out, to make a logical or evidenced based statement one way or the other is foolish and ignorant, due to our miniscule knowledge of the universe and how it works. Let's not forget that in years to come, people will probably patronisingly sneer at theories that we think are scientifically sound today.

reply to post by Alaskan Man

Your attitude is refreshing. Thanks.

You know you're on the right track when Atheists HATE the God you love.

Think about it.

JESUS is the one they hate.

PS - remember when Castro commended Obama for the new Health Care Bill?

Think about it.

Peace

reply to post by glitchinmymatrix


Star for that incredible analysis.

I have always thought of atheism as either a political statement or a religion of its own. Like you said, they are either revolting, or having faith in the non-existence of a deity.

I was unaware of Ignosticism. I think I will have to put that one notch higher than agnostic, since at least they are engaging the idea.

This would now make the top three belief systems IMO be:
1. TRUTH (What is; cannot be completely known, but searched for individually)
2. IGNOSTICISM
3. AGNOSTICISM

reply to post by Alaskan Man


so you must be equally disgusted with those who apply attributes to such an unprovable diety.....

when someone says that god loves them and will give them a place in heaven for murdering babies because they are of a differnt ethnic descent... maybe they write this stupid %^&$ down in a book and turn it into a massive corporation founded on the blief that a god became a man who wants you to eat flavorless crackers to redeem you for your transgressions.

how many of those imaginary boxes would you have to look into before it would dawn on you that probability has a place in the creation of logic and that it is more likely that there are no transdementional fart havesting purple unicorns?

Loved that cartoon. Was once an atheist myself. Changed to agnosticism after really paying attention to how the solar system is comprised. It is of the most rare occurrence that we actually exist right now without getting hit by a massive asteroid. So many things in the Solar system that protect us almost as if a wall was built there. Just my .02. Great thread OP.

Originally posted by Wolf321
I have always thought of atheism as either a political statement or a religion of its own. Like you said, they are either revolting, or having faith in the non-existence of a deity.

I think it's important to differentiate between atheism in its most basic form, and the slightly more ''extreme'' version that many atheists promote.
An ''absence of belief in God'' is usually how atheism is defined, and it's not an illogical position to hold. However, when personal disbelief turns into an actual belief in the non-existence of God, then that is where I feel many atheists cross the boundary of logic, and are just acting purely on faith.

It is a subtle - yet illogical - jump, from not believing in something's existence, to believing in its non-existence. Not to mention, that the position itself is based on ignorance.

I was unaware of Ignosticism. I think I will have to put that one notch higher than agnostic, since at least they are engaging the idea.

I think Ignosticism is quite a sound position to take, too.
In my opinion, one of the fundamental philosophical flaws in atheism is that the atheist themself defines the concept and parameters of the God that they disbelieve in.
They only disbelieve in the God that they create.

reply to post by Alaskan Man


Especially when your sitting on that box smoking a turd cigar in hell.

I've considered it, but simple mathematics points to a creator. Spin the wheel on what you call him/her/it....

Just as a general observation, and not necessarily in favor of one viewpoint or another, why is it that, especially on ATS, when people write threads about why God may exist or why a particular person feels religion is important, is it considered selling/preaching/encouraging/spreading religious views?

Yet, when others, present threads why people shouldn't believe in God, it is considered and treated as a more fact-based argument and not at all preaching? Is anti-Bible thumping any better than Bible thumping? Why?

Isn't being against religion as much of a movement as being for religion? With just different viewpoints?

As for another point, there are tons of things that people believe in yet one can not see. Karma for example. Luck being another. Superstition in general.

The above are all feelings. Much like the feeling that there is a God or the mere feeling that there is not.

Many a professional athlete will tell you that if they wash their socks after a victory, they will lose the next game.

How is this any different than saying if I don't pray to God, I won't go to heaven?

One belief [either not washing socks OR praying to God] leads to the other event that a person desires to happen [winning the game OR going to heaven].

I realize that it's a very simpleton-type view, yet I believe at its core it's very accurate.

As for my beliefs, I wish someone could explain to me how Intelligent Design occurred in absense of a creator. Creator, by the way, in my book does not necessarily equal God.