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Originally posted by OldDragger
reply to post by endisnighe
Tell you what!
How about I get together some friends and form one of your pretend Grand Juries,and indict YOU!
Then try you in our pretend Court?
That's Ok with you, right?
Or are you one of those 'patriots' that doesn't give a crap about rights for people that don't agree with you? You know, the "patriot' that is just another authoritarian, eager to lock up and kill those that don't meet your high moral standards. Freedom for some, but not all eh?
Please post your picture, of course your BIRTH CERTIFICATE, your adress, THE Storm Troopers, uh, My Grand Jury needs to have a few words with you!
[edit on 15-5-2010 by OldDragger]
Originally posted by endisnighe
Imagine, if a group of citizens could get together, pool information and come to a conclusion that they had the necessary evidence to file for a warrant of arrest of a corrupt politician?
Imagine if I told you, this was how warrants were originally done?
Imagine if I told you, that this was one of the first rights your government took away from you?
Current day use of Grand Juries. I will be learning as I write this. I have gleaned some knowledge on the use of Grand Juries in the past and present, but I wanted to do a little more delving into the subject.
A couple links-
History of the Grand Jury
Grand Juries
Grand jury-wikipedia
One thing you will notice, on most of the sites linked you will hear the argument that because of the secret meetings, this is supposed to be possibly a bad thing. Tell me, does the government LEO's make their requests for warrants out in the open?
From wikipedia link-
In the common law, a grand jury is a type of jury that determines whether there is enough evidence for a trial. Grand juries carry out this duty by examining evidence presented to them by a prosecutor and issuing indictments, or by investigating alleged crimes and issuing presentments. A grand jury is traditionally larger than and distinguishable from a petit jury, which is used during a trial.
Alright, now for historical usage of Grand Juries.
From the wikipedia link-
In the early decades of the United States grand juries played a major role in public matters. During that period counties followed the traditional practice of requiring all decisions be made by at least 12 of the grand jurors, so that for a size of 23 a bare majority would be 12. Any citizen could bring a matter before it directly, from a public work that needed repair, to a delinquent official, to a complaint of a crime, and they could conduct their own investigations. In that era most criminal prosecutions were conducted by private parties, either a law enforcement officer, a lawyer hired by a crime victim or his family, or even by laymen, who could bring a bill of indictment to the grand jury, and if the grand jury found there was sufficient evidence for a trial, that the act was a crime under law, and that the court had jurisdiction, then by returning the indictment to the complainant, it appointed him to exercise the authority of an attorney general, that is, one having a general power of attorney to represent the state in the case. The grand jury served to screen out incompetent or malicious prosecutions.[4] The advent of official public prosecutors in the later decades of the 19th century largely displaced private prosecutions.
Notice the difference between now and then.
Private citizens could bring any complaint to a Grand Jury and get an indictment if the Grand Jury decided that enough evidence called for it. Kind of different now right?
With this indictment, warrants would be issued for the arrest and then presentment to a jury trial. Private individuals could be assigned the duty of arrest or a peace officer could be appointed. I believe this is where the use of citizen's arrest came into play.
Now, I just began to look into this historical use of Grand Juries and have found that therexistence must be one of the things feared in the past, by corrupt and tyrannical politicians. I can see why this had to be eliminated to further the reach of the central government. It would not bode well for criminals in government if this was still around.
I am going to stop here with the thread and do some more research. I was hoping to get a few ideas from posters to see if they had insight into the history of Grand Juries and there usage. Any avenues of research anyone has would be appreciated.
edit to add-I forgot one of the most important parts.
From the Bill of Rights-
* Fourth Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
* Fifth Amendment
No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
* Sixth Amendment
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.
* Seventh Amendment
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
“The grand jury system in this state is a joke,” said Bannon. “The day of the lacrosse indictments, there were 82 indictments in 96 minutes. And there is no duty to provide exculpatory evidence.” Clearly, with that kind of time crunch, coupled with no pressure to produce evidence, and no written records of the proceedings, there exists the possibility that anyone could be indicted in this state.
The Hoppy Heidelberg Story. This video provides evidence of how the Federal Grand Jury investigation into the Oklahoma City bombing of the Alfred Murrah Federal Building on April 19, 1995, was manipulated and obstructed. Why? Why the secrecy surrounding this terrorist attack that killed 168 men, women and children? One courageous Grand Jury member, Hoppy Heidelberg, stood up and began asking questions that rogue Federal prosecutors preferred to avoid answering. In this video, you'll get a rare glimpse into the inner workings of our corrupt judicial system. Risking his freedom, family and his fortune, Hoppy speaks out and tells us how things really were. You'll see how rogue prosecutors manipulate and control the outcome of Grand Jury inquiries to make sure Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were indicted
The Criminal Grand Jury consists of 23 members and a designated number of alternates. It is impaneled monthly and the term of service is typically 30 calendar days unless otherwise required by the District Attorney’s Office. The Criminal Grand Jury is selected at random from the petit jury list to ensure that a reasonable representative cross-section of the entire county is eligible for this jury service. All persons qualified for Criminal Grand Jury service have an obligation to serve when summoned.
On July 5, 2000, the Superior Court began impaneling an additional criminal grand jury, in addition to the civil grand jury. This selected criminal grand jury will be impaneled throughout the year according to the District Attorney's needs, and shall have exclusive jurisdiction to return criminal indictments when impaneled. Such a criminal grand jury will be selected at random from the petit jury master file list in such a manner that a reasonably representative cross-section of the population that is eligible for jury service is summoned.
Because Los Angeles County has the largest population of any county in the United States, it also has the largest Superior Court. The Los Angeles County Superior Court is organized into dozens of highly specialized departments dealing with everything from moving violations to mental health. It handles over 2.5 million legal matters each year, of which about 4,000 terminate in jury trials; this works out to about 4,300 matters per judge. Its 429 judges are assisted by 140 commissioners and 14 referees.
Originally posted by OldDragger
reply to post by endisnighe
Tell you what!
How about I get together some friends and form one of your pretend Grand Juries,and indict YOU!
Then try you in our pretend Court?
That's Ok with you, right?
Or are you one of those 'patriots' that doesn't give a crap about rights for people that don't agree with you? You know, the "patriot' that is just another authoritarian, eager to lock up and kill those that don't meet your high moral standards. Freedom for some, but not all eh?
Please post your picture, of course your BIRTH CERTIFICATE, your adress, THE Storm Troopers, uh, My Grand Jury needs to have a few words with you!
[edit on 15-5-2010 by OldDragger]
Originally posted by Southern Guardian
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Well let me clarify, are we talking about a civilian juries that is held accountable by law to the courts and authorities? Or completely independent civilian grand juries formed by civilians, with no accountability? I am arguing the latter as I assume the OP is as well.
The OP clearly argued the rights of an independent grand jury, seperate from the courts, formed by civilians, to hold the authority to bring somebody in, to make an arrest in preparation for a trial following the conclusion of this grand jury.
Essentially we can have a mob come together, conclude somebody is guilty with little to no evidence, then arrest them and bring them in. This is the abuse I am arguing here, that an individual citizen with 5th ammendment rights can be ignored on the basis and conclusions of another group of citizens, and taken in. That is an invasion of privacy, and these independent civilian juries need not necessarily assure the evidence for this arrest as the OP clearly argues that they do not need to be held accountable to the courts or authorities (because they are corrupt).
I have no doubt that the states do use civilian juries, obviously they do, but this is under the guide and watchful eye of the authorities as there is less risk. These juries also hear evidence from independent outside parties before they make a judgement and are chosen at random. Independent civilian grand juries are not obligated to and can form from a group of members, not at random. There is a significant increase in danger of bias within these independently formed civilian juries.
Essentially what is being argued here is that the court and law enforcement agencies cannot be trusted, there for we need indepedent self regulated civilian juries to make judgements, with nobody watching and holding them accountable, with no outside party needed to make a defense. Ultimately the power is held to the civilian jury that gets together, and they hold the power to arrest somebody. This is not at risk of being abused? Who will exactly regulate the 10,000's of independent civilian grand juries?
You don't have the right to make a citizens arrest of somebody because you don't hold that authority.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure and perpetuate its blessings, do establish this Constitution.
SECTION 1. All people are by nature free and independent and have inalienable rights. Among these are enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy.
SEC. 3. (a) The people have the right to instruct their representatives, petition government for redress of grievances, and assemble freely to consult for the common good.
SEC. 7. (a) A person may not be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law or denied equal protection of the laws;
Each state, with the exception of North Carolina, permits citizen arrests if the commission of a felony is witnessed by the arresting citizen, or when a citizen is asked to assist in the apprehension of a suspect by police. The application of state laws varies widely with respect to misdemeanors, breaches of the peace, and felonies not witnessed by the arresting party. American citizens do not carry the authority or enjoy the legal protections held by police officers, and are held to the principle of strict liability before the courts of civil- and criminal law including but not limited to any infringement of another's rights.
Though North Carolina General Statutes have no provision for citizens' arrests, detention by private persons is permitted and applies to both civilians and police officers outside their jurisdiction. Detention is permitted where probable cause exists that one has committed a felony, breach of peace, physical injury to another person, or theft or destruction of property. Detention is different from an arrest in that in a detention the detainee may not be transported without consent.