Some conspiracy theories need rethink

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Soular System
I would suggest that debunkers conspire on this very site to suggest that any conspiracy involving government secrets is completely false, and "crazy"

It's the debunkers that state their information is undisputable fact. That in itself, is the conspiracy.

That's a sweeping generalization. Most debunkers claim no such thing unless they have indisputable facts or evidence. Mostly, they call for the conspiracy theorist to support their claims with indisputable evidence.

Yeah, that's it.

Let's debunk government conspiracies, with indisputable government evidence.

-puts palm to face-

Originally posted by Soular System
Yeah, that's it.

Let's debunk government conspiracies, with indisputable government evidence.

-puts palm to face-

You're making the faulty assumption that evidence contrary to government conspiracy theories would always be sourced to government. Palming your face appears to be affecting your thinking negatively.

reply to post by Soular System


I think the idea of a conspiracy as it concerns an event or belief system is very attractive to all of us. Conspiracies are ideal expressions of human behavior because they seem to explain how and why things happen, that are complex, appear to be manipulated by some unseen hand, or are shocking and unexpected (like JFK's assanation). I want to mention IMO what may be a neurological and psycological basis of why conspiracies seem so "infectious". At the basic perception level the brain seeks to identify patterns in what we see and hear. We organize our lives into patterns, or routines, and it's upsetting to us when something upsets our routine. We all seek to have a degree of control, as far as were concerned over our own lives. At the extreme end of conspiracy belief, those who feel nothing is a conspiracy, or everything is, tells me a lot about someones level of self respect, how "connected" they think they are.My observations, and it's only that, is that people who feel they have been treated unfairly by a corporation, or the government seem more likely to feel they were "not told the truth" about what affected them.

When people consider something thats "really big" to be a conspiracy, the NWO, the government and Aliens, the heavy stuff, concern goes from "I'm not being treated fairly, to whats going to happen to us?" I assure you all governments fear uncertainly and loss of confidence by their population above everything else. All of them. You mention "power obsessed leaders". I think for a lot of them it's less due to meglomania or even greed, at least at first. I think it's fear. The more power you have, the more other's covet it. Through history we see kings, tycoons, and pope's all consumed with controlling more.But before I mention different structures, I need to provide a definition.

The is one trait of a conspiracy I feel is universal. Those who control it are unidentified. They may be in a very real sense, a no body. More likely they may be well known and if not famous, familiar to a "community," financial, industrial, etc. Any connection to this conspiracy is nonexistant.
A conspiracy is similar to but not the same as a regular business arrangement. One definition is: "A conspiracy is an agreement between two or more people, the existence and objective of is concealed from everyone else". A business that intentionally conceals illegal activity is concealing it's activity from regulators and law enforcement. But in effect everyone. A secret and a conspiracy are close but: A secret is something concealed by intent from others for whatever reason. With a secret you conceal the end products identity. A conspiracy conceals the true motivations of what your doing in the first place. IMO if you had a program like NASA's, you might find some data they collect helpfull for your purpose's, as part of their own activities, but they are not part of any conspiracy. Using those who can assist you by them doing what they'll do anyway, and not having it cost you anything is just good business sense. Whatever that business is.

It seems if a major conspiracy is put in place, the reason must be so important (at least to the people involved) that the effort, byzantine complexity and expense is seen as critical. The intent to manipulate an event, or more likely social reaction to an event would be required to prevent social if not cultural implosion if suddenly released. A conspiracy has got to "make sense" If you look at an event like the moon landing being fake don't worry about why, would all those who were involved, particulary the astronauts, stayed silent all this time? And just for the record, the Russians were up our you know what monitoring everything we did during the space program, as we were them. They would have LOVED to have come out saying it was all bogus. Though not a great example, this makes the point everyone needs at least a basic understanding of science. Those who don't can easily be controlled by those who do. Or sound like they do. Most misleading information people get hysterical about is because they don't know jack about the subject.

One area I think may involve a genuine, long term conspiracy is what I call "the alien thing". I have no preference for which version may be closer to the truth, but I am less likely to buy their here just to save us, or destroy us, steal our women, gold, whatever. I'm suspicious by nature of quasi-biblical events, if it sounds to simple, their not saying something, or were missing something. I'm as confused as every one else. But from the way this subject has been presented to the public, I think something very real is going on concerning human interaction with non-human intelligence's. I just don't know which part to believe, all or part, or if its all a screen for a real phenomana, but one the public is not aware. Something's on fire, I just don't know what's burning.

Stepping back from the perspective of abductee's, whistle blowers, government (Here I use the rule: The government saying nothing at certain moments speaks volumes), I try less to figure out certain events at first, but ask myself whats my first impression? We know the government used UFO's to cover some classiefied air craft. Sounds good, I'd been disappointed if they diden't. I think some amazing craft are ours. But I think most reports of craft are not. Alien reports seem, well, alien, but some reports mention military involvement, during some abductions, but, that what's some people report. I am fully convinced there is an aggressive long term disinformation program going on here. We also make the assumption the government is in charge of disclosure. That would mean their in control of something... Disinformation can mean look there, we don't want you to be aware of something else. Used often for military reasons, like the Normandy invasion, etc.

But something as big as this can't just be put in a safe, or they can't divert your attention. Yes for individual situations, not the whole concept. The only way it can work is to bury you in every possible type of information. Crafted to appeal to those drawn to the spiritual, scientific, and, yes conspiracy buffs. By having people of different reputations present data of variable reputability, it's confusing. Disinformation also requires you to play your part. In that sense, it's very "viral" or "plant a rumor, it will spread". That can include certain UFO/Alien books, TV program's. No, not everything about this subject is a conspiracy. But it's not impossible to influence a writers, or producers perspective, depending who thay think a source is. The ideal conspiracy doesn't hide, or blend in. It is part of the establishment. A massive economic conspiracy must have the co-operation and active support of people who know nothing of it;s true nature. It does not use the system, it is the system. It's like the difference between a cult and a religion. When the cult becomes mainstream, we no longer call it a cult. It's all a matter of perspective.

reply to post by arbiture


Thanks for the very detailed look at conspiracies. I must agree that the leaders are more likely to be fearful than to be power-hungry. When a state spies on its citizen it's because it fears its citizens.

[edit on 15-5-2010 by crowdedskies]

Originally posted by crowdedskies
reply to post by arbiture

 

Thanks for the very detailed look at conspiracies. I must agree that the leaders are more likely to be fearful than to be power-hungry. When a state spies on its citizen it's because it fears its citizens.

[edit on 15-5-2010 by crowdedskies]

And they call us conspiracy theorists paranoid...

Paranoid, power hungry, and greedy. And we wonder why things are upside down, where the people have lost the power, and government steals from the people.

Is this why we broke off from English rule?

reply to post by Soular System


It's just one way to seperate the more likely from the less likely. In business, relationships or conspiracies, information is also limited and very often contradictory. You have to at least know what the piecies are to be comfortable enough to trust your instincts.

I have been a member of this site for a long time, and over the years I have watched it evolve into what it is today. And I am loosing faith in its population.

It seems like EVERYTHING is a conspiracy any more. I kid you not, I saw a thread about Billy Mays (the infomercial guy) and if his death was a conspiracy. And this is just one example.

As someone who reads almost daily but rarely posts, it seems to me, that over exposure to CT for some is worse than a coc aine or heroin addiction. Every major earthquake in the last few years has been blamed on some secret government project.... like earthquakes haven't been happening since the earth was formed.

And with everyone chasing shadows like this, it becomes difficult to identify and pursue the topics that really need looked into. I don't buy everything I am fed by the main stream media, but COME ON PEOPLE. Start actually using logic and reasoning instead of obsessive compulsive theorizing. Not everything is a conspiracy, sometimes bad stuff just happens.

Originally posted by Soular System
And they call us conspiracy theorists paranoid...

Paranoid, power hungry, and greedy. And we wonder why things are upside down, where the people have lost the power, and government steals from the people.

Is this why we broke off from English rule?

Many conspiracy theorists are indeed paranoid and equally ill-informed.

For example, America did not break off English rule because of conspiracy theories, it was because of a right-out-in-the-open neglect, abuse and disrespect of the people of the colonies.

Originally posted by zombiemann
Start actually using logic and reasoning instead of obsessive compulsive theorizing.

I would encourage you to post more often so that you may point this out to people. Otherwise people will begin believing that Billy Mays went to hell, farted, and caused the Iceland volcano eruption. Fighting ignorance and bad thinking is a noble cause

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by zombiemann
Start actually using logic and reasoning instead of obsessive compulsive theorizing.

I would encourage you to post more often so that you may point this out to people. Otherwise people will begin believing that Billy Mays went to hell, farted, and caused the Iceland volcano eruption. Fighting ignorance and bad thinking is a noble cause

A noble cause indeed, but one that wears on a person after a time. One definition of insanity is someone who does the same thing over and over expecting different results. I am not insane. I have tried many times to be the voice of reason only to be called a disinformation agent or a shill.

The thing that not many people realize is that this site and others like it, well they are LOVED by the people behind the real conspiracies. So many people come here in search of truth and answers and leave with more questions. The silly conspiracies draw attention away from the important ones, and by doing that we are helping those who are trying to hide.

Originally posted by zombiemann The silly conspiracies draw attention away from the important ones, and by doing that we are helping those who are trying to hide.

Umm, you have been on this site for 7 yrs. You have started an entire 7 threads.

Which did you think were the important conspiracies?

You've been on ATS 24 hours, yet you know the dynamics of the site better than I?

There is a reason why my post count is relatively low. I don't particularly care for "arguing"/or "debating" things I view as common sense with people over the internet. Instead of looking at the threads I have started, take a look at the threads I have posted in. I don't post much but when I do, I usually have something I consider important to say. Not always, but a majority of the time. And pretty much every thread I have started was something that, at the time, I felt strongly about.

I am curious as to your motivation here. You countered a logical statement with a personal dig. Why is that?

Originally posted by zombiemann

A noble cause indeed, but one that wears on a person after a time. One definition of insanity is someone who does the same thing over and over expecting different results. I am not insane. I have tried many times to be the voice of reason only to be called a disinformation agent or a shill.

Don't you just love that one? People that run that line of thinking are beyond help.

I understand your feelings about debating on the side of reason. It is tedious. The difference between you and I seems to be that one can expect a different result sometimes. Additionally, we can't tell how many lurkers could be affected by our comments. At some point though someone needs to interject a voice of reason so that others, possibly lurking, may not fall victim to the trappings of conspiratorial thinking.