Nicolas Sarkozy threatened to pull out of euro over Greece row

reply to post by Dermo

Firstly, I never said that.. Someone said it replying to me..

My mistake, but you say it now:

The EURO benefitted all the EUROZONE members

Secondly.. It was your Government's fault.. Thats basic economics of pushing costs higher through raising public wages, welfare and stimulating a rise in property prices.. Sound familiar?

Prices almost doubled overnight after the introduction of the Euro, you can keep repeating that every EU member benefited from the Euro, but the common Dutchman did not benefit from it. Our own governments fault or not.

Who says its going to come crumbling down?

It's obvious that it's crumbling, otherwise we wouldn't be talking here.

The World is in the biggest economic collapse in a hundred years.. Not just the EUROZONE.. If we go down, the world collapses.. Don't you think they will at least try and save it It is the worlds biggest in use currency and the second reserve.. Everyone has dozens of billions of EURO's in reserve.. China has over a half a trillion..

Yes, and why are we in this mess? Because with the Euro the European Central Bank was founded, and together with the US federal reserve they now controlled the world economy.

What you quoted is only describing the EUROZONE policy from before last week.. The continent, policies and systems are not rigid.. It can, will and is being changed as we speak.. That's obvious to anyone who is following it..

Yes and what's more obvious to the more observant people is that this is the solution in their problem-reaction-solution game.

The whole way economics are setup today is bound to fail, and with the globalists pulling the strings, this crisis will be used to even further regulate and dominate the economics and politics of once souvereign countries, and more centralisation of power, wich will not benefit anyone in Europe, except for the rich and powerfull.

Well then leave if you guys don't like it.. Close up the common market.. Install trade barriers.. Bring back your old currency and see how well you'll do then..

I am not against the idea of open borders and one currency, the problem is that it puts too much power in the hands of the wrong people.

There was no escaping the EU and now with the system in place it would probably be too late to leave it and survive.

I think we would've been better off if everybody had kept there own currency and independance.

And here an example of how the EU costs us money.

euobserver.com...

The Netherlands is the sixth largest contributor to the EU purse in absolute terms, after Germany, France, the UK, Italy and Spain. But its EU-related costs are the highest in the bloc in per capita terms, dating back to a historical agreement on EU payments in relation to the country's GDP.

We have only 16-million people.

reply to post by Point of No Return


Prices Doubled overnight?

I have heard that before and it is a ridiculous notion.. So Dutch PPP halved with the introduction of the EURO and it didn't collapse in on itself?

Be realistic..please!! I understand economics very well..

Prices may have doubled since then yes.. But ever hear the way a half penny would get you a loaf of bread back in the 20's? do you think that half penny should still get you a loaf of bread? Because that seems to be the case.. Even at a double of pricing through inflation every decade, that bread would cost the same as it does now.. And don't tell me that wages didn't go up to match it because Im just going to stop listening.. I have many Dutch friends.. I know the country well..

Its called inflation.. And it would have happened with your own currency as well.. No point in blaming the EURO for something that occurs naturally in the financial system..

**And Yes.. Holland benefitted from the EURO..**

The massive cost of transferring money and exporting in a foreign currency was a disaster for a country as small as the Netherlands that had such a big export drive.. That is only one thing but a MASSIVE issue all the same.. Once the currency barriers went down, the exporters could lower their costs.. Which in turn would have created more jobs if your government didn't allow price inflation to take over which resulted in outsourcing of Jobs to other countries.. Government short sightedness.. Not the EURO's fault..

I understand that Holland contributes more than it should to the EU and that is being stopped soon, I have heard.. But you are talking about Holland donating to the EU.. Nothing to do with the EURO..

Look, I understand what you are saying as obviously there are bad aspects with the good aspects.. Like everything.. But you are only pointing out bad aspects and a lot of what you are saying is contradictory to the facts.. I very much doubt we are going to see eye to eye on this so Im going to leave this alone..

Originally posted by ironfalcon

Nicolas Sarkozy threatened to pull out of euro over Greece row

www.telegraph .co.uk

President Nicolas Sarkozy threatened to pull France out of the European single currency unless Germany helped bail out Greece's economy and the wider euro zone, it has emerged.

The French President slammed his fist on the table while making the threat to tear to apart the EU last Friday at a crisis summit of euro zone leaders, diplomatic sources have confirmed.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Funny how all these anti-euro stories are coming from British Conservative broadsheets.

I'd expect more and more of this kind of conditioning from these rags in the weeks and months to come.

The Telegraph - otherwise known as the torygraph :-O

Originally posted by SteveR
How can you prove he is a committed globalist?

He makes some nationalist noises from time to time. He brought some national car manufacturing back into France, that's rather unprecedented these days.

Former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy all made the same appeal at a conference in Paris on the future of capitalism last month.
Merkel called for the creation of a new global economic body under the UN, similar to the Security Council, to judge government policy.
Sarkozy called for a “new world, new capitalism” during his speech, as he commented “In capitalism of the 21st century, there is room for the state.”

www.zimbio.com...

In fact, French President Nicolas Sarkozy, a closet socialist who is pushing hard to scuttle what little sovereignty remains for nation-states in the European Union, threatened to "walk away" from the London summit if concrete global governance "deliverables" on financial regulation are not met.

www.thenewamerican.com...

That's how Sarkozy is a committed globalist. It is evident in his words and his actions.

reply to post by SteveR


Globalist are the worst even our President Obama and those before him are globalist they all work for the same powers, but they try to hide the fact as much as they can under the veil of been socialist.

The take over of the NWO is in full gear owning the right for nations to government themselves and creating debt for life.

Originally posted by marg6043
[Globalist are the worst

Hi Marg..

Just wondering why you think this.. If you don't mind sharing your opinion with me..

I think that the unification of mankind is one of the milestones of our civilization and will create a massive growth spurt for us in regards colonization of Space, the reduction of pollution and the slow reduction of population on Earth.. Which can only really be good..

Apart from the obvious ass***es who want to capitalize off Globalization while treading on the little person.. All conspiracy theories of a NAZI esque big brother world aside.. Why are globalists bad? And why is the unification of Mankind bad?

reply to post by Dermo

I have heard that before and it is a ridiculous notion.. So Dutch PPP halved with the introduction of the EURO and it didn't collapse in on itself?

A quick google search will give you some references. Also, I know what I experienced, it's not that long ago.

www.expatinterviews.com...

-What is the cost of living in Holland? The cost of living in Amsterdam has increased hugely since the introduction of the Euro on January 1st 2002. Prices seemed to double overnight, but wages did not increase. Food is inexpensive, but housing can be expensive depending on where you live especially in the center. Space is at a premium.

Be realistic..please!! I understand economics very well..

I already figured you were thinking that about yourself. I bet you are a real pro at textbook economy.

Its called inflation.. And it would have happened with your own currency as well.. No point in blaming the EURO for something that occurs naturally in the financial system..

100% inflation in a very short amount of time is not normal.

**And Yes.. Holland benefitted from the EURO..**

I'm sure there are ways in wich we benefitted, but in the end we all have less money to spend.

The massive cost of transferring money and exporting in a foreign currency was a disaster for a country as small as the Netherlands that had such a big export drive.. That is only one thing but a MASSIVE issue all the same..

It's not that big of an issue, we were doing just fine with that system.

Which in turn would have created more jobs if your government didn't allow price inflation to take over which resulted in outsourcing of Jobs to other countries.. Government short sightedness.. Not the EURO's fault..

The outsourcing of jobs is a direct result of the Euro and open borders.

It was now easier to move production to counties with cheaper labour, opposed to the relatively high wages we always received in Holland.

It's great that Germany did so well, but we were srewed with the Euro exchange rate, and screwed with the translation of prices from Guiilders to Euros, by our own government and by the EU.

It is the consensus in Holland that we have lost money because of the Euro.

Originally posted by Dermo
All conspiracy theories of a NAZI esque big brother world aside.. Why are globalists bad? And why is the unification of Mankind bad?

The way i see it is, that big bro is going to exist anyway, and governments will do bad anyway. Why not have the 1 europe thing.

If governments are always bad and big bro is here, there is nothing we can do, at least if we have a 1 europe, at least more people have a chance.

reply to post by Dermo

Apart from the obvious ass***es who want to capitalize off Globalization while treading on the little person..

That's just it, you just described all of them.

The world should unify in spirit, not in politics, economics, culture and governance.

Unification of those elements, and the centralisation of power will place too much power in the hands of the few. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

reply to post by Dermo


My dear just look the mess that the global economy is in right now, look at the American mess that cause the financial crisis, the nations in the world are falling into the hands of those that wants control of governments.

Lure them into sharing the nations resources or just have the sold, out sourcing, shifting and propping economies and then crash them after their economies are so linked with each other that are easily manipulated giving into more debt.

Free trade a product of globalization is killing Americas middle class robbing the nations bread and butter its means to productivity and way of producing wealth.

www.globalpolicy.org...

NWO.



[edit on 16-5-2010 by marg6043]

Originally posted by Point of No Return
reply to post by Dermo

 

-What is the cost of living in Holland? The cost of living in Amsterdam has increased hugely since the introduction of the Euro on January 1st 2002. Prices seemed to double overnight, but wages did not increase. Food is inexpensive, but housing can be expensive depending on where you live especially in the center. Space is at a premium.

So just house prices doubled in your capital city... And thats different to every other country how?

And btw.. Thats not everything doubling in price dude.. Sorry.. Thats a doubling in house prices.. Which your government should have kept control of though various measures..

I already figured you were thinking that about yourself. I bet you are a real pro at textbook economy.

That supposed to be an insult?

100% inflation in a very short amount of time is not normal.

It happened in Ireland as well.. So how is Holland special?

I'm sure there are ways in wich we benefitted

Im Glad you finally agree with me then

It's not that big of an issue, we were doing just fine with that system.

So why did ye change?

It is the consensus in Holland that we have lost money because of the Euro.

Link to voted consensus or it didn't happen

As I said, I do get what you are saying, I hang around with Dutch people here in Berlin who are also into this stuff so we have talked about it a decent amount.. But in fairness, Holland isn't much different that anywhere else in Northern Europe.. Everyone likes to thing they have been hard done by with the EU and EURO at the moment because things are bad.. But its a global recession. You're not special.

reply to post by Dermo

So just house prices doubled in your capital city... And thats different to every other country how? And btw.. Thats not everything doubling in price dude.. Sorry.. Thats a doubling in house prices.. Which your government should have kept control of though various measures..

No, not just houses, that's just one of the things mentioned in this example.

You ask how it's different to any other country, but you add it's only my governments fault.

That supposed to be an insult?

No it's just an observation, you apply schoolbook economic knowledge, but you are oblivious to what's going on in the background.

It happened in Ireland as well.. So how is Holland special?

You downplayed this inflation by saying it was natural, using an example of how a bread cost a penny in the 1930's, or something to that extent.

I pointed out that the inflation I was talking about, has nothing to do with this natural inflation.

You should understand that with your understanding of economics.

Im Glad you finally agree with me then

Things got easier and more convenient, but like I said, financially, the common Dutchman only lost to the Euro and Europe.

So why did ye change?

Because our government alligned itself with the globalist agenda.

Link to voted consensus or it didn't happen

Just look around on the Dutch webs, this is how people feel. Off course, as a German, you are able to make a better judgment about the opinions in my country.

As I said, I do get what you are saying, I hang around with Dutch people here in Berlin who are also into this stuff so we have talked about it a decent amount.. But in fairness, Holland isn't much different that anywhere else in Northern Europe.. Everyone likes to thing they have been hard done by with the EU and EURO at the moment because things are bad.. But its a global recession. You're not special.

The difference is we were complaining how we got screwed right from the start of the Euro, way before this crisis, since it was so evident.

reply to post by kangshung


It's funny how you seem to have registered to accuse this article of propaganda, while it clearly happened, and hundreds of news outlets are reporting the same thing.

Can you explain what the propaganda was in this article?

reply to post by Point of No Return


As any reader of this forum will know, appearances can be deceptive!

Actually I've been toying with the idea of registering for a while. The thread which made me do so is titled 'Europe tells Britain not to ask for help in a crisis' - you'll be able to use the timing of my post on that thread to verify that it was indeed my first post on ATS. I made that decision to register as I wanted to point out how that particular thread had decended into a bout of juvenile mud-slinging.

That thread was based on an article (in a British broadsheet) which manipulated one mans opinion to make it sound like that of a nation, resulting in an English/French stand-off (though limited to this forum, of course!) that was counter-productive to the debate.

As for the threat to withdraw France from the Euro, as of yet, though my search has not yet been of great depth, I am yet to find a report of it which does not come from conservative-biased broadsheet newspapers.

Funnily enough, division on the continent over the Euro would suit the Conservatives quite nicely. I'm sure you can point me in the right direction, and look forward to your reply.

Peace.

Edit: I have now resumed my research into the article, and am finding the Guardian is now most prominent as a source. In fairness, this is not a tory rag.

[edit on 16-5-2010 by kangshung]

[edit on 16-5-2010 by kangshung]

[edit on 16-5-2010 by kangshung]

Originally posted by Point of No Return

You downplayed this inflation by saying it was natural, using an example of how a bread cost a penny in the 1930's, or something to that extent.

I pointed out that the inflation I was talking about, has nothing to do with this natural inflation.

You should understand that with your understanding of economics.

Yea.. and Ireland's government let Inflation run out of control.. Hence the mess Ireland is in now..

So I clearly do understand it.. You are missing my points entirely..

Is there any point in me even replying? Im not replying again..

reply to post by kangshung

Edit: I have now resumed my research into the article, and am finding the Guardian is now most prominent as a source. In fairness, this is not a tory rag.

So you admit the story wasn't propaganda?

reply to post by Dermo

Yea.. and Ireland's government let Inflation run out of control.. Hence the mess Ireland is in now.. So I clearly do understand it.. You are missing my points entirely..

Is that so? But at first you said that the inflation I was talking about was just natural inflation:

Prices may have doubled since then yes.. But ever hear the way a half penny would get you a loaf of bread back in the 20's? do you think that half penny should still get you a loaf of bread? Because that seems to be the case..

Now you say it's because of government mistakes.

So I clearly do understand it.. You are missing my points entirely.. Is there any point in me even replying? Im not replying again..

You are missing your own points, so no, there's no point.

So you admit the story wasn't propaganda?

I'll concede that my evidence for that theory has been compromised through the addition of the Guardian as a speculator on the situation. However, I'm still struggling to find any reputable, first-person source of information regarding this issue. So far it wreaks of the sensationalism that is so typical of the British press.

Again, I ask you to point me in the right direction.

[edit on 17-5-2010 by kangshung]

reply to post by kangshung


Ah come on, a quick google search gives you lot's of independant sources from all over the world. Do I really need to take you by the hand?

Ok here we go, this is the original source that posted this story, El Pais, a Spanish news paper.

This has been the source for all the other reporting sites and papers.

Can we agree that this is not a "sensationalist Britsh tory rag" as you call it, and that it is not conservative propaganda?


www.elpais.com...

Translate it if you wish.

Originally posted by Point of No Return
reply to post by kangshung

 

Ok here we go, this is the original source that posted this story, El Pais, a Spanish news paper.

This has been the source for all the other reporting sites and papers.

Can we agree that this is not a "sensationalist Britsh tory rag" as you call it, and that it is not conservative propaganda?


www.elpais.com...

Translate it if you wish.

Slight manipulation of my posts with the 'quote' "sensationalist British tory rag" - but I'll let that slide, as I will the rather patronising "Do I really need to hold your hand?"

The article in El Pais is nowhere near definitive - in fact it presents two versions of the story:

A (surprise, surprise) completely anonymous source is alleged to have quoted "...the comment he had heard the head of the Spanish government, "Sarkozy was to hit his fist on the table and threatened to break away from the euro, forcing Angela Merkel to bend your wrist and reach an agreement."

Again, I ask you, where is the reputable first-hand witness? For all we know this could just as easily be a total fabrication, or alternatively a lie told by some corrupt official to suit his own agenda. As is the way with MSM, one paper printing unsubstanciated stories is used by others around the world as primary source material.

We have a word for this - hearsay.

The second version of events contains the only quote attributed to a named party - and so the only part of the story which can be confirmed:

"In France itself Economy Minister Christine Lagarde described as "completely unfounded rumors" and "almost insulting" those versions of the Eurogroup meeting in Brussels. A German government spokesman also told Reuters that that version had no base."

Now, if El Pais has been, as you say "the source for all the other reporting sites and papers" can you tell me where your conviction as to the validity of the allegations being made comes from? Whilst I accept that there is no conclusive proof that Sarkozy never made such a threat, I see nothing to provoke the kind of reaction we are seeing here. I see two versions of events presented, with neither confirmed or even favoured.

As for the conservative propoganda, I stand by that claim - though perhaps I have worded it badly.

Allow me to amend it:

Propoganda on behalf of the conservatives, from the Telegraph. Always quick to pounce on any bad news for europe, and Sarkozy in particular, their article is much more one-sided the the one in El Pais.

I apologise if my beliefs somehow cause you personal offence, but I can only see the world through my own eyes.



[edit on 17-5-2010 by kangshung]

[edit on 17-5-2010 by kangshung]

[edit on 17-5-2010 by kangshung]

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