Nicolas Sarkozy threatened to pull out of euro over Greece row

Originally posted by andy1033Well said dermo, there is someone or some group out there trying to destroy the euro or eu or something, with all this bad news.

I was watching Euronews and France24 today and both of them did features on Speculators.. Both of them mentioned George Soros as one of the biggest problems outside the Investment companies..

I think one reporter said he has control of over a trillion dollars in several hedge funds with which he uses to make money through betting against the EURO while short selling at the same time..

The EU is looking to ban hedge funds as a result and I have also heard he is being investigated in the US..

Of course. Soros is as corrupt as they come. What he and financial entities do is whit collar societal robbery. A homeless thug robs you with a gun he'll go jail for the rest of his life. A white collar speculator like Soros robs a society through fancy financial speculation and manipulation, possibly wieldiing enough influence to crash entire financial systems and currencies and he has the envy of the world.

Originally posted by Wolf321
I would think with the position China is in, they are the only ones who could force a one world currency.

Why? The EU has an economy significantly greater than that of China. China could not force a currency even if they wanted to. The problem is overstating China's powers.

Regards

The only "hidden" agenda trying to destroy the Euro is the market itself. Capital will always try to find the best returns - it's a bit like water finding the shortest route to the sea.

When governments interfere in the markets on the scale they have been lately, they merely exacerbate the problems. Governments around the world have socialised the debt from failed institutions that should have been allowed to fail, and what we're seeing when we have these massive swings in shares is the market trying to figure out the new cost of risk versus the potential rewards of investing where governments feel they are free to change the rules on the fly.

I would argue that the root cause of all of these problems is the fact that fiat monetary systems are failing. Confidence is being destroyed, particularly in the Euro - the dollar won't be far behind. Anyone notice how gold is rocketing up lately? It's not that the gold has increased in value, its because governments are debasing their own fiat currencies with extreme monetary policies, such as printing it by the truckload. The value of the gold is somewhat constant - its price in fiat currency is merely a reflection of the loss of value of the various currencies over the years.

The European Central Bank has sent a message to the market that they are prepared to follow the US with "quantitative easing" (printing money), and the slide in value of the Euro is just a reflection of this. There's no conspiracy with the way the markets have been reacting, although the EU would have you believe there's a wolfpack out there trying to eat them alive. Of course, its got nothing to do with irresponsible economic policies and living beyond their means...its the nasty capitalists!

The GFC will only finish once the world finishes de-leveraging about 40 years of living in lala land where money is paper and credit is created out of thin air. It's only just begun (fade in Carpenters music)...

Originally posted by Snappahead
The European Central Bank has sent a message to the market that they are prepared to follow the US with "quantitative easing" (printing money), and the slide in value of the Euro is just a reflection of this.

They actually didn't..

What they said was they would buy bonds..

Loans would be bilateral with no extra liquidation of EURO's in the system..

I'd disagree - they said they would buy bonds and "immunise" the debt (not print money initially), however they've also sent a clear message that they will do anything to protect the Euro. I submit that what this means is they will have to start printing money at some stage soon.

Think about the logic - there are debt issues in some Euro nations, and they are going to fix them by (drumroll) borrowing money and loaning it to the countries that are in debt! Who is guaranteeing Greece's debt? Such worthy lenders like Portugal, Spain, Ireland and Italy. Of course the big boys are there as well so it adds a tiny amount of respectability to the whole plan and makes some people believe it may just work.

I am certainly no economic genius (probably obvious from my posts), but I don't think the situation is really that hard to grasp. The way to sort out issues of debt are to either pay the debts off or default. If you run up a massive credit card debt, do you think it would be a good idea to go out and get another credit card? Eventually the house of cards must collapse.

reply to post by ironfalcon


WELL DONE MR SARKOZY ! Its nice to see the French making the Eurozone quake in its boots.
This offers me hope that the tyrany of the European Parliment may not achieve total supremacy over the wishes of the member states as soon as some fear !

Originally posted by paraphi

Originally posted by Wolf321
I would think with the position China is in, they are the only ones who could force a one world currency.

Why? The EU has an economy significantly greater than that of China. China could not force a currency even if they wanted to. The problem is overstating China's powers.

Regards

China has so much US treasury paper that if they wanted, they could sell it at a two percent discount to whatever the treasury wants for it's new issues. No one would buy from the treasury and the dollar would be in serious trouble. In fact, selling it to a third party is the only way China is ever likely to see any of that money again, at least in a form that buys something.

reply to post by Snappahead


I get what you are saying and agree with much of it but there's a few things Im not too sure about..

Neutralizing the bonds can just as easily be selling them back to the markets as soon as they are feasible investments.. Which is generally what neutralization means..

Also, the ECB mandate of keeping inflation as low as possible.. And the fact that they said they wouldn't be adding more liquidity to the system means they won't be adding more liquidity to the system apart from buying the bonds.. Which will be sold/"neutralized" later..

Also the fact that the ECB doesn't work like the FED means they don't just print money out of thin air.. It has to be credit/assets moved from the central banks of Member states under the centralized control of the ECB..

There is little confidence in the EURO at the moment until a system to stabilize the economic and political system comes in.. And unfortunately this means fiscal governance.. The markets will react to that in a massive way and the value of Gold will drop slowly again..

reply to post by paraphi


In addition to what christanpatrick said, a vast majority of products are produced in China and Taiwan. If China wanted to force anything, they could simply by ceasing to produce and ship goods. Many western nations don't even have the facilities to produce the items they shipped over to China. China has been increasingly positioning themselves to be self-sufficient and something to be needed by other nations.

As i know many german citizen are against Germany being part of the bailout for Greece

France and Germany are one of the most important countries in EU and most the times they stood by one another and took similar positions in many situations

It could easily be just a diversion only to give the citizens of Germany that may be against helping Greece another motive of why this is a necessity telling them : "If France pulls out ( which is highly improbable if you ask me ) the euro will suffer like it never did before, tho your lives will be affected in a direct manner , so we do this for you , our beloved german citizens

Originally posted by christianpatrick
China has so much US treasury paper that if they wanted, they could sell it at a two percent discount to whatever the treasury wants for it's new issues. No one would buy from the treasury and the dollar would be in serious trouble. In fact, selling it to a third party is the only way China is ever likely to see any of that money again, at least in a form that buys something.

That is just an over simplification of economics! The US is debt to many nations. www.treas.gov...

Currently China is an exporter because the price of Chinese labour is cheap. This state of affairs will not always persist because as China gets richer the price of labour will increase. Furthermore, China is pretty backward and needs vast investment in infrastructure and that is where they will be spending their savings and that is where the more advanced economies will be able to contribute. How many Chinese companies develop and manufacture and advanced medical equipment? There is a difference in assembling a computer and manufacturing “under license” to actually inventing, patenting, developing and designing goods.

Originally posted by Wolf321
In addition to what christanpatrick said, a vast majority of products are produced in China and Taiwan. If China wanted to force anything, they could simply by ceasing to produce and ship goods. Many western nations don't even have the facilities to produce the items they shipped over to China. China has been increasingly positioning themselves to be self-sufficient and something to be needed by other nations.

If China unilaterally decided to stop producing plastic toys the a few million Western kids would be deprived, but a few million Chinese peasants working in the factories may not be too happy with the Chinese Government. The Western buyers would switch their manufacturing to the next cheapest.

Factories come and go, whether they assemble laptops or sofas.

Simple economics.

Regards

[edit on 16/5/2010 by paraphi]
Edit - tried to get the hyperlink to work, but it would not!

[edit on 16/5/2010 by paraphi]

Originally posted by andy1033
reply to post by Dermo

 

All euro countries have benefited from the euro, except of course the ones who are not in it.

Well said dermo, there is someone or some group out there trying to destroy the euro or eu or something, with all this bad news.

Did we? I'm from Holland and since the Euro, everything went downhill.

Our old currancy, the Guilder was pretty strong, just below the D-Mark.

Nowadays, I pay one Euro for something that cost one Guilder not that many years ago.

One Euro was supposed to be 2.20 Guilder, and they already screwed us with that exchange rate.

The poorer EU members are the ones that benefited most, and some bigger countries, but it only costed us money, I think we have to pay relatively too much money to the EU.

On the other hand, off course all countries profited from the open borders and free trade and such initially, but look were it got us now.

Originally posted by Point of No Return
Nowadays, I pay one Euro for something that cost one Guilder not that many years ago.

Thats your own government's fault for allowing price inflation to get out of control..

How come things are still dirt cheap in Germany, Spain, Portugal etc etc?? No point in blaming the EURO for sovereign issues..

Here's one basic example of the benefits of the EURO for whichever country competing in it.. www.spiegel.de...

German companies no longer need to worry that products made by their competitors in France, Spain or Italy will suddenly become cheaper, simply because those countries have devalued their franc, peseta or lira. The euro, together with EU laws, allowed a real single market to be created, with measurable success. In the first 10 years of the euro, the euro-zone countries created on average 1 million new jobs each year -- five times more than the average in previous years."

"Anyone who wants to abolish the currency union -- - either deliberately or because there is no support for the euro-zone members under attack in the international financial markets -- would have to do without all these benefits. Anyone who neglects the monetary union renounces prosperity."

[edit on 16/5/10 by Dermo]

Originally posted by paraphi

Originally posted by christianpatrick
China has so much US treasury paper that if they wanted, they could sell it at a two percent discount to whatever the treasury wants for it's new issues. No one would buy from the treasury and the dollar would be in serious trouble. In fact, selling it to a third party is the only way China is ever likely to see any of that money again, at least in a form that buys something.

That is just an over simplification of economics! The US is debt to many nations. www.treas.gov...

[edit on 16/5/2010 by paraphi]

An oversimplification in what way, pray tell? I did not say that we only owed China money. We owe lots of countries money, which only makes it worse. I did not say that China could bring down the US economy. I said that the dollar would be in serious trouble. If the next time the US government decides it needs to borrow 100 billion dollars, and it puts up 100 billion dollars of treasury notes for sale, if the Chinese say that they will sell their US treasury notes for 98 cents on the dollar, who is going to buy the newly issued US treasury notes from the US? So the US can't sell any treasury notes till the chinese get tired of selling their US treasury notes. How is the government going to pay the bills? If the US decides to sell it's treasury notes for 97 cents on the dollar to beat the chinese price, the chinese can sell for 95 cents. The chinese have nothing to lose, because the US will never have the political will to pay back those notes with money that will buy anything. There isn't that much physical money in the world, and what with Obamacare, social security, medicare, veterans benefits, and lots of other things that cannot be cut, and a country that will vote anyone who tries to raise taxes out of office, the only way that the US can ever pay the world it's debts off is to print the money, which would cause Weimar style inflation. The only hope China has of getting any of it's money that it spent on treasury notes back is to sell them to someone else. At whatever price it can get. And don't think they don't know it.

reply to post by Dermo

Thats your own government's fault for allowing price inflation to get out of control.. How come things are still dirt cheap in Germany, Spain, Portugal etc etc?? No point in blaming the EURO for sovereign issues..

It's because of the Euro and the EU aswell as our government wich sold us out.

Like I said the poorer countries and some richer countries, like Germany benefited, but not all countries like you claimed.

Because of the Euro and the union a small but rich country like Holland has to pay much more than it will ever get back and prices rose because we lost our competitive position once Europe opened up.

0

German companies no longer need to worry that products made by their competitors in France, Spain or Italy will suddenly become cheaper, simply because those countries have devalued their franc, peseta or lira. The euro, together with EU laws, allowed a real single market to be created, with measurable success. In the first 10 years of the euro, the euro-zone countries created on average 1 million new jobs each year -- five times more than the average in previous years."

The rise in jobs is not solely an effect of EU, it's just normal growth expanded by new markets, the development of the internet the past ten years, created lots of jobs for instance.

After the first 10 years of the Euro, we now face a giant financial crisis.

Here a qoute from the same page you posted:

"The problem with the euro zone is that the potential dangers of the single currency were clear from the start, while, to this day, its achievements have yet to be properly acknowledged. It's true that it is difficult to squeeze such different economies into the corset of a common currency. And what can go wrong in such a process is currently clear."

What good are the supposed benefits you mentioned, if it comes crumbling down after ten years?

Maybe your country profited, mine didn't. Is it the fault of my own governement?

Yes, just as much as the globalists they sold out to.

reply to post by Dermo

Who told you that things are still dirt cheap in Germany? Things have never been dirt cheap in Germany. Not since the currency reform of 1948, anyway. I'm (ex) german german, I know. I used to live there. Cheaper than scandinavia and Britain, but more expensive than anywhere else in europe. Even more expensive than Switzerland. And, as in the Netherlands, the prices that germans now pay in Euro are about the prices that they used to pay in Marks. Something that used to cost DM1.00 now costs about E1.00
How is the government supposed to combat inflation when it doesn't control the currency?

Originally posted by Point of No Return
It's because of the Euro and the EU aswell as our government wich sold us out.

Like I said the poorer countries and some richer countries, like Germany benefited, but not all countries like you claimed.

Firstly, I never said that.. Someone said it replying to me..

Secondly.. It was your Government's fault.. Thats basic economics of pushing costs higher through raising public wages, welfare and stimulating a rise in property prices.. Sound familiar?

The EURO benefitted all the EUROZONE members

What good are the supposed benefits you mentioned, if it comes crumbling down after ten years?

Who says its going to come crumbling down?

The World is in the biggest economic collapse in a hundred years.. Not just the EUROZONE.. If we go down, the world collapses.. Don't you think they will at least try and save it It is the worlds biggest in use currency and the second reserve.. Everyone has dozens of billions of EURO's in reserve.. China has over a half a trillion..

What you quoted is only describing the EUROZONE policy from before last week.. The continent, policies and systems are not rigid.. It can, will and is being changed as we speak.. That's obvious to anyone who is following it..

Maybe your country profited, mine didn't. Is it the fault of my own governement?

Yes, just as much as the globalists they sold out to.

Well then leave if you guys don't like it..

Close up the common market.. Install trade barriers.. Bring back your old currency and see how well you'll do then..



[edit on 16/5/10 by Dermo]

Originally posted by christianpatrick
reply to post by Dermo

 

Who told you that things are still dirt cheap in Germany? Things have never been dirt cheap in Germany.

I live in Germany..

Its about 2/3 the price of living in Ireland..

I recently moved to Mitte Berlin.. Its less than half the price of living in Dublin..

How is the government supposed to combat inflation when it doesn't control the currency?

I never said inflation.. I said price inflation which is a different thing completely.. Price inflation is a result of the economic situation..

Economic policy.. Keeping public wages and minimum wage down.. Forcing stabilization of House prices.. Keeping welfare costs and public spending down and as a result taxes..

This results in lower prices and therefore lower costs of living..

Originally posted by Zosynspiracy
Of course. Soros is as corrupt as they come. What he and financial entities do is whit collar societal robbery. A homeless thug robs you with a gun he'll go jail for the rest of his life. A white collar speculator like Soros robs a society through fancy financial speculation and manipulation, possibly wieldiing enough influence to crash entire financial systems and currencies and he has the envy of the world.

This is the most well phrased and apt post I've ever come across lately! S&F for you!

The NWO had been pretty effective and efficient in twisting our morality perceptions.

When a poor man robs a covenience store of bread, he goes to jail for months, while crooks like Soros are worshipped and allowed to rob more freely by the millions.

Topsy turvy world we live in......