“Joe Legal” and “Jose Illegal”

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

What is welfare?
One might say that it is anything that the society one lives in provides for the common good.
This includes roads, infrastructure, schools, police protection, parks, emergency services, ems, clean water, food inspection,
removing dead bodies from ranches
whatever.
Who pays for welfare?
One might say that it is anyone who pays fully into the society in which they live?
This includes employers and employees that pay their taxes, whether it be income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, franchise taxes,
insurance costs,
and whatever else they can afford to invest back into THEIR community.

If you are "illegal", can you own property and pay property taxes?
Can you have a legal business and pay franchise taxes?
Do you learn English and volunteer your time with a non-profit, like a Chamber of Commerce, a Lions Club, or at a hospital,
or,
ANYTHING?

I DO.

Don't slap me on the face. I actually responded, civilly.

mon.

reply to post by jfj123

I'll give you a real life example:
2 years ago, I had to go to the emergency room. When I arrived, I was asked for my drivers license and INSURANCE CARD. Shortly after, a family who only spoke spanish arrived...they waited for a doctor who could speak spanish...the family was never asked for ID or insurance oh and they never signed anything. The daughter, as it turned out, had the flu...they were given a prescription and left. A month later, I received a $1862.00 bill and a $624.00 bill. Wanna guess how much they paid ????

I don't know...how much did they pay? Did you go check their mail for a month to see if they got a bill? Because unless you did...then you have no idea how much they paid either. Basic logic.

Did you follow them every step in the ER to know for sure they were never asked for ID?

What kind of crap hospital were you in that you know the diagnosis and the treatment for other patients??? Ever hear of HIPPA??? You seem to know a lot about their situation and their entire ER visit. BTW...do you speak spanish???

reply to post by Stewie


Ok but I was talking about state welfare programs such as collecting food stamps or receiving a monthly state subsidy for some "odd reason".

Illegal mexicans can't collect anything because they are undocumented. Their employer doesn't file irs papers or anything so nobody knows anything about the illegals. Further they don't own a house and many don't even rent an appartment cause they sleep in the basement.

In other words mexicans don't contribute anything other than their labor but at the same time they don't burden the system. Their spouse and kids are in mexico.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


God help me but I agree with Outkast on this one... no offense man, but that sounds seriously embellished if not entirely made up. I'm all for real life examples on one side of this argument or the other, but please don't generalize because you found it offensive that a family in the ER seemed to speak strictly Spanish...

If you can prove everything you said I apologize in advance... but wish you well with your HIPAA violations... hospitals kinda take those seriously.

reply to post by My_Reality


"This country has numerous problems troubling the Legal American Citizen. Illegal Immigration is one of those problems. That cannot be disputed."

Speaking of un-disputable: the "people" responsible for generations of border failure ALSO benefit the most. The DNC & GOP mafia is a wholly owned subsidiary of banker-gangster corporate America inc.. slave labor = more profits = more political donations.

A crappy border also enables the required flow of drugs to justify billions on the bogus "War on Drugs", our proto-fascist police state, the empires global military base network, foreign aid bribes, erosion of ALL of our rights.. and hey, it's an effective "divide & conquer" issue some people actually still get their tribal panties in a wad about.. even in 2010 knowing what we do about the shadowy overlord 2-party creeps that take turns selling us out to a gaggle of banker criminals.

The ad nauseum border "crisis" is way too valuable to "waste", or fix... remember the US governments un-official creed: "Never let a good crisis go to waste".. I indelibly recall everyone belching out the EXACT same tired rhetoric / arguments in the 1980s when I was in HS.. nothing has changed ON PURPOSE.

Meanwhile.. according to Iraqi law US troops are armed illegal aliens, criminals, who stormed across the border disrespecting Iraqi laws leaving about 1 million DEAD.. these troop illegals don't speak the language or even try to assimilate to local culture, and the freaking nerve of un-invited troop aliens, freak'n foreigners expecting local Iraqis to speak English or be wasted at a freedom check-point!.. and what-about all those US sponsored contractor illegal aliens taking jobs away from Iraqis who desperately need the work!!

Surely every American sick & tired of scoff-law illegals who show up uninvited and crap everywhere can relate to Iraqis.

reply to post by SWCCFAN


Hmm, I think you need to get your facts straight jelly bean. I was born here but my girlfriend was not. I talked to her about it and I also know a lot of your so called illegals since I am Mexican/American.

My girlfriend and I are both 24 years of age. She is working under a social she bought in Los Angeles and works at a Denny's. She makes 8.00/Hour and she does pay texes. She has showed me her paycheck stub. She makes about 450.00/week but after taxes she gets 300 and some change. Several illegals I know are working under a social. In fact I have never met not one guy that gets paid under the table.

She does not have health insurance and has never had. Do you know she has never been to the hospital? When she got sick once we went to a Mexican clinic that they charged her $25.00 bucks plus the medicine. She did not bill that to the state. She paid for it out our her own money. And I think your Joe is stupid because I have a son and we only pay 250/month for health and dental. Not even my sister pays 600 and she has two kids and a husband.

My girlfriend does not get any food stamps, no help from the gov what so ever. No help for the rent or nothing like that.

She has insurance in her car because hmm its the law. She always has. She got in a accident in 2007 and hey she was covered.

It seems to me like you like to jump to conclusions. She pays a car payment of 400/month with 85/insurance, 425 for a room she rents, pays her taxes, gets no help what so ever. and she is here illegally. Her parents brought her here when she was 3. 24 now, never been arrested, never got any help from the united mistakes of america. She did get some tickets though for driving without a license and she paid the fines.

Originally posted by antonia

Originally posted by Night Star
And so we go around and around in circles getting nowhere.

So, what is your ultimate solution? That everyone just agree with you? This issue has always been divisive. It always will be divisive.

[edit on 14-5-2010 by antonia]

That is what my statement meant antonia, That it is a divisive issue and always will be. I'm not the type of person that needs everyone to agree with me. The ultimate solution would be one that is fair and would please both sides of course. I don't claim to have an answer. No matter what is decided, someone won't be happy.

I don't enjoy seeing anyone suffer for any reason, no matter who they are, no matter what race or color, no matter if legal or illegal. Sadly, things here in America and other countries are a mess and I am fast losing hope of things changing for the better for anyone.

Originally posted by dalek
reply to post by Stewie

 

So what is the "problem" of poor people coming along to do the jobs that others do not want to do?

1. There are no jobs Americans won't do which means they are taking Americans Jobs.
2. They are criminals.
3. They typically don't pay taxes on income so they pull money from the system but don't put money into the system.

I could go on but I hope you get the idea.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by jfj123

 

I'll give you a real life example:
2 years ago, I had to go to the emergency room. When I arrived, I was asked for my drivers license and INSURANCE CARD. Shortly after, a family who only spoke spanish arrived...they waited for a doctor who could speak spanish...the family was never asked for ID or insurance oh and they never signed anything. The daughter, as it turned out, had the flu...they were given a prescription and left. A month later, I received a $1862.00 bill and a $624.00 bill. Wanna guess how much they paid ????

I don't know...how much did they pay?

They paid nothing. Not a dime. I was lying right next to them. No cash, checks, credit cards, etc.. were exchanged at any point.

Did you go check their mail for a month to see if they got a bill?

Didn't need to. Please re-read my post and you'll have your answer.

Because unless you did...then you have no idea how much they paid either. Basic logic.

Please re-read my post and use your basic logic and you'll have your answer.

Did you follow them every step in the ER to know for sure they were never asked for ID?

They were 5 feet from me the entire time so the answer is YES

What kind of crap hospital were you in that you know the diagnosis and the treatment for other patients???

Um and ER.

Ever hear of HIPPA??? You seem to know a lot about their situation and their entire ER visit. BTW...do you speak spanish???

Si lo hago

Originally posted by Legion2112
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

God help me but I agree with Outkast on this one... no offense man, but that sounds seriously embellished if not entirely made up. I'm all for real life examples on one side of this argument or the other, but please don't generalize because you found it offensive that a family in the ER seemed to speak strictly Spanish...

If you can prove everything you said I apologize in advance... but wish you well with your HIPAA violations... hospitals kinda take those seriously.

I don't take offense however everything I stated was accurate.
This was a real life example.
While I was in the ER, I also heard the following regarding other patients
1. A patient came in with a broken are. He wanted the ER doc to cut off the cast instead of seeing his own doctor because it would be free at the ER. The ER docs were pissed so they made him wait 2 hours.
2. A elderly man came in with a heart problem. They'd seen him before so when he showed up, they immediately knew his name. They put him on an IV blood thinner.
3. A very cute brunette came in with flu like symptoms. She was very dehydrated so they gave her an IV.
4. A homeless woman came in to get a blanket. They ER people also knew her.

I could go on but I think you get the point.

Now can I prove any of this ? Well I didn't video tape it if that's what you mean but I saw everything with my own 2 eyes.

OK maybe those who are pro-illegals can understand a bit better what is going on with an analogy.

Let's say you have a very nice house that you've worked very hard for. You pay all your taxes which allow you to keep your house, your car, etc.. In other words, you've worked hard to give your family nice things and make sure they have all they need.

Little do you know but someone has sneaked into your house when you're not at home and is now living in your attic. When you're not home, they eat your food, they watch your tv, they sleep in your bed, they use your bathroom...and they even take one of your cars out and drive around town and empty the gas tank.

Now one day you've noticed that you have less then what you thought you should have based on how much money you've spent. You notice food gone, your water bill has gone up, your electrical bill has gone up, your cable tv bill has gone up, your gasoline purchases have gone up. You get suspicious and decide to look around and find that a person is living in your attic...
What do you do now ??????
Do you:
A: Invite him into your home and allow him to continue draining your finances and resources?
B: Call the cops as he is there illegally and stealing from you?

reply to post by jfj123


Yeah, ok...whatever man! I have been to the ER twice!

1)During my college years I fell of the bunk(2nd tier) and hit my head on the concrete floor. Blood was gushing all over the place. Security guards took me to the local hospital where I was stitched up by a plastic surgeon. Lucky for me my college health insurance covered all the costs and I didn't pay a dime otherwise it was something like $2,000..thats what the college nurse said afterwards.

2)My dog partially bite my nose off and I had to go the ER to have it treated. They put some iodine solution and a band-aid and said everything was ok. A month later I was mailed a bill for $600!

The first happened in NYC and the second happened at my NJ residence. These are 100% real examples and unlike others I have no reason to lie about anything.

Another example was with my uncle who had by-pass heart surgery and ended up getting billed $40,000 because his insurance had surpassed the limit. They didn't ask for all the money up-front, rather they garnished his wages and social security payments till he finally passed away a few months later.

Hospitals are not of a philanthropic nature, nor are they public. Most are HMOs. Look up HMOs and learn something! If you don't have health insurance or if you go over the limit, YOU GET BILLED LATER!!!

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by jfj123

 

Yeah, ok...whatever man! I have been to the ER twice!

Sorry to hear.

1)During my college years I fell of the bunk(2nd tier) and hit my head on the concrete floor. Blood was gushing all over the place. Security guards took me to the local hospital where I was stitched up by a plastic surgeon. Lucky for me my college health insurance covered all the costs and I didn't pay a dime otherwise it was something like $2,000..thats what the college nurse said afterwards.

Ouch ! that would have been expensive.

2)My dog partially bite my nose off and I had to go the ER to have it treated. They put some iodine solution and a band-aid and said everything was ok. A month later I was mailed a bill for $600!

I feel your pain !

The first happened in NYC and the second happened at my NJ residence. These are 100% real examples and unlike others I have no reason to lie about anything.

Same here.

Another example was with my uncle who had by-pass heart surgery and ended up getting billed $40,000 because his insurance had surpassed the limit. They didn't ask for all the money up-front, rather they garnished his wages and social security payments till he finally passed away a few months later.

Something similar happened to my dad. He had prostate cancer and was billed $140,000.00. Blue Cross wouldn't cover some of it because they thought it was too expensive...never mind that it saved his life.

Hospitals are not of a philanthropic nature, nor are they public. Most are HMOs. Look up HMOs and learn something!

I'm very familiar with HMO's and health insurance in general..unfortunately. Not sure what you mean by this though ???

If you don't have health insurance or if you go over the limit, YOU GET BILLED LATER!!!

Yes I know, I did get billed but the non-english speaking family did not. And since they received services but were not billed, guess who gets to pay for it? I'll tell you...you and me my friend.

[edit on 16-5-2010 by jfj123]

I seem to have missed where someone (OP??) explained how an illegal immigrant goes about getting welfare, social security, food stamps etc etc. This is a claim that I often hear from anti-Mexican people, yet I've never heard anyone say how they can do it.

If Jose has no SSN, no legit ID, no legit job, no citizenship papers, no green card etc. etc. how can he get any of those perks? It just doesn't add up.

From MY experience, illegal immigrants get zero support from anyone. We shouldn't necessarily feel sorry for them, but we shouldn't hate on them for gaming the system since from what I've seen they don't get any help from the government. Most are too scared of getting deported to even try to get medical help for life-threatening stuff.

If somehow it IS possible to game the system so easily, why not stop whining about how everyone else is doing it and go do it yourself? Why not give it a shot anyway and see what you can get away with? BECOME that Jose, if only in the name of science. Get those food stamps, social security, rent subsidies and whatnot that are supposedly so easy to get. Let us know how it goes

reply to post by m-theory


I can't tell if you're being fecetious or not... if you aren't, and you are legitimately telling people to quit whining and milk the system like the illegals do, then you're thinking my friend is a potentially larger problem than illegal immigration... quite sad really.

Illegal immigrants become eligible for welfare and other government-sponsored assistance programs the second they have an anchor baby... the child's birth gurantees it.

Lastly, you're veiled attempt to call us racist (anti-Mexican? Really?) doesn't hide the fact that this is an issue that needs to be dealt with. It should have been dealt with decades ago, but apparently people tend to look the other way when life is peachy. It's not now.

I have an idea... I think that if liberals are so sympathetic to illegal aiens then they should volunteer to take them into their homes, get them to go to work and pay for all the extra cost of healthcare/education etc. while they get their citizenship legally..Then everyone is happy..the people who want to attack Arizona can feel all warm inside and the rest of us can hear the lovely sound of their silence... let's get started..who is going to make the first adopt and illegals... the Whitehouse is a great place to show leadership..oops I forgot they are showing leadership...funny huh?

Originally posted by m-theory
I seem to have missed where someone (OP??) explained how an illegal immigrant goes about getting welfare, social security, food stamps etc etc. This is a claim that I often hear from anti-Mexican people, yet I've never heard anyone say how they can do it.

If Jose has no SSN, no legit ID, no legit job, no citizenship papers, no green card etc. etc. how can he get any of those perks? It just doesn't add up.

With regards to SSN #'s, they can either get one with fake ID or they can use someone else's without their knowledge.

Identity theft is an epidemic in the US right now. Whom do you think is doing this in some cases ? My sister recently had 2 credit cards opened in her name by 2 illegals who got caught. YEAHHHH !!!!!!!!

From MY experience, illegal immigrants get zero support from anyone.

They get zero support? From anyone ?
Then how do they survive with ZERO support ?

We shouldn't necessarily feel sorry for them,

Good I don't. I feel anger toward them for stealing from people who are here LEGALLY.

but we shouldn't hate on them for gaming the system since from what I've seen they don't get any help from the government.

Isn't the "system" you speak of, the government?

Most are too scared of getting deported to even try to get medical help for life-threatening stuff.

Not true. Simply not true.

If somehow it IS possible to game the system so easily,

You've never heard of identity theft? Do you live under a rock?

why not stop whining about how everyone else is doing it and go do it yourself?

Well to start, IT'S ILLEGAL...DUH !!!
not to mention that if everyone did it, the country would collapse...DUH !!

Why not give it a shot anyway and see what you can get away with?

I hope you're being facetious because if not....oh my god !

BECOME that Jose, if only in the name of science. Get those food stamps, social security, rent subsidies and whatnot that are supposedly so easy to get. Let us know how it goes

instead look up "Identity theft" and read for yourself.



[edit on 19-5-2010 by jfj123]

OK maybe those who are pro-illegals can understand a bit better what is going on with an analogy.

Let's say you have a very nice house that you've worked very hard for. You pay all your taxes which allow you to keep your house, your car, etc.. In other words, you've worked hard to give your family nice things and make sure they have all they need.

Little do you know but someone has sneaked into your house when you're not at home and is now living in your attic. When you're not home, they eat your food, they watch your tv, they sleep in your bed, they use your bathroom...and they even take one of your cars out and drive around town and empty the gas tank.

Now one day you've noticed that you have less then what you thought you should have based on how much money you've spent. You notice food gone, your water bill has gone up, your electrical bill has gone up, your cable tv bill has gone up, your gasoline purchases have gone up. You get suspicious and decide to look around and find that a person is living in your attic...
What do you do now ??????
Do you:
A: Invite him into your home and allow him to continue draining your finances and resources?
B: Call the cops as he is there illegally and stealing from you?

When Will Other States Pass Legeslation like AZ?

Never...because it's a retarded legislation based on nothing more then latent racism.

They are here to take over our towns. We must stop this Illegal Invasion. ENFORCE THE LAW FEDS!

You sound like the native Indians a couple of hundred years ago.....

reply to post by jfj123


something that is "draining your finances and resources" is warmongering and the industry the u.s of A has created around it,

what was spent in the first year of iraq war could have just aswell been spent on internal infrastructure , such as schools and boarders and job programs, you d probobly even have an excess of 3 million dollars per u.s citizen just laying around for no one to spend because every one is so happy within,