It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Possible Cause of Relief from Acupuncture Found

page: 7
8
<< 4  5  6   >>

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 14 2010 @ 05:48 PM
link   

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
Please explain, then, how sham acupuncture produces similar, if not more efficacious, effects as true acupuncture. This would suggest to me that the attention being paid to the patient or the idea of acupuncture has a placebo effect, but not an actual effect.





I readily admit that I am biased against mysticism, being an atheist, but even so, I don't see how you can compare scientific findings on these topics with the claims made by alternative therapy pushers.



Perhaps your bias says it all. Maybe the explanation for your sham acupuncture study is the same. Setting up a study to test a "sham" versus a "real" sounds biased from the beginning if you ask me. I doubt your studies integrity. I offer job security as reason for performing such a biased study. It is logical for the western medicine community to try and offer proof to discredit anything that could take away from their monopoly in the west.



I prefer to call it "data-centric" rather than closed minded


Of course you do
.




posted on May, 14 2010 @ 06:05 PM
link   
I found this very interesting:

projectcamelot.org...



DW: Do you believe in acupuncture points on the body?

PP: Well, I have to believe in them because they’re there, and you can go to Radio Shack, or you can go to Harbor Freight and buy a $4.00 or $5.00 dollar meter and adjust the meter appropriately and run those on the body and find every one of the points, put a little dot there; go compare yourself to an acupuncture chart, and you’ll look exactly the same.

I did find out how the acupuncture system works. There have been a number of people that postulated it, but they didn’t show that it worked. I worked with Dr. Jean Claude De Roche at the French Institute of Science. He’s a very famous acupuncturist. He taught the Chinese acupuncture. They did away with acupuncture in the ’20s and made it illegal, even though it was practiced down every alley, and then during the Cultural Revolution they brought it back. .....



So, anyway, the acupuncture system is very interesting. What we did is we injected radioactive potassium into each acupuncture point while the person was under a high-speed CAT-scan machine, and we found that the radioactivity moved directly to the organ associated with that point......


When we inject here [touching the side his left thumb], the radioactive material goes to the tonsillary ring. When we inject here [touching same thumb, but closer to bottom knuckle], it goes the whole lymphatic system.

You go down [indicating different points down the side of the thumb] and, you know, it goes on down the body.

The same thing, you know, if you work across the hand, you have lymph and lung and circulation and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. [pointing to different places on his hand] You come over here and you have the heart and the small intestine. You can go down and inject here and it goes to the mitral valve. Here it goes to the aorta. Here it goes to, you know, this chamber, that chamber, etcetera, etcetera. ....


The acupuncture meridians, as they’re called, aren’t really meridians. They’re made up of a... If you’ve ever cleaned a game animal or a chicken, you’ll notice that between the organs – or done surgery – between the organs there’s a white filmy layer. That layer is built up like a baklava. It’s built up in a number of layers, and each of those layers is a capacitive, conductive surface, not meant for conducting materials such as radioactive potassium, [laughs] but it works as does anything in the body.

The body is a biological mechanism. It works like the intestine does, peristaltically, like the heart does, peristaltically. It’s ionic in nature, so it’s polarized, so it pulsates and moves information. So that system was an information system.


Will power to heal is energy, our focus and will, our manifesting and envisioning. If that can heal then the average scientist in the matrix/box should be seriously questioned as to what he thinks is doing this. Placebo effect sounds like magic to me. What part of your will can manifest energetic healing in your system? Tell me? I'm really curious.



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 06:05 PM
link   

Originally posted by idontKNOWanything
Perhaps your bias says it all. Maybe the explanation for your sham acupuncture study is the same. Setting up a study to test a "sham" versus a "real" sounds biased from the beginning if you ask me. I doubt your studies integrity. I offer job security as reason for performing such a biased study. It is logical for the western medicine community to try and offer proof to discredit anything that could take away from their monopoly in the west.


The study was performed by professional acupuncturists. How does my bias affect a study I was not involved in, and was performed in a totally different part of the globe by people I've never met? Also, how would you suggest they study the effects of acupuncture without a control group? The sham acupuncture group was a means of determining the effect of doing nothing, versus the effect of doing something (acupuncture). You ALWAYS have to have at least a negative control in your studies.

Study



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 06:34 PM
link   

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa

The study was performed by professional acupuncturists.


I see 3 MDs included in the authors, it was not performed by professional acupuncturists solely, it just involved some.



How does my bias affect a study I was not involved in, and was performed in a totally different part of the globe by people I've never met?


I doubt you are the only MD with that bias. It could be completely possible that the persons involved in that study share your bias. However, your bias could be the cause of your inability to accept the idea of anything "mystical".



Also, how would you suggest they study the effects of acupuncture without a control group? The sham acupuncture group was a means of determining the effect of doing nothing, versus the effect of doing something (acupuncture). You ALWAYS have to have at least a negative control in your studies.


I would suggest that sham acupuncture does not determine "the effect of doing nothing". It seems that it might possibly determine "the effect of doing something dangerous". Do you "ALWAYS" have to have a "negative" control, or can you just get away with a control group?



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 06:43 PM
link   

Originally posted by idontKNOWanything


I see 3 MDs included in the authors, it was not performed by professional acupuncturists solely, it just involved some.


The MDs did not perform the acupuncture. Professional acupuncturists performed the treatment, and then independent researchers (again, not the MDs) interviewed the patients after each treatment session. This is how a typical double-blind study is performed as a means of reducing investigator and subject biases.




I doubt you are the only MD with that bias. It could be completely possible that the persons involved in that study share your bias. However, your bias could be the cause of your inability to accept the idea of anything "mystical".


Again, please show me how the investigators bias would have affected this study, given that the MDs did not perform the acupuncture or interview the patients. The only thing the MDs did was design the basic experiment and then collect/publish the data. They even mentioned in the conclusion that chronic acupuncture use *might* be helpful, but they haven't studied it thoroughly enough for a long enough time frame, yet.



I would suggest that sham acupuncture does not determine "the effect of doing nothing". It seems that it might possibly determine "the effect of doing something dangerous". Do you "ALWAYS" have to have a "negative" control, or can you just get away with a control group?


A control group IS a negative control. If I'm testing a drug in rats, I would give group 1 the experimental drug (experimental group), group 2 a sugar pill or saline injection (control group, negative control), and if I wanted to be extra thorough, I would give group 3 a known successful agent (control group, positive control).

The sham acupuncture was included to factor placebo effects out of the results of actual acupuncture. The idea is that if, say, 75% of people in the actual acupuncture group reported pain relief, while 25% in the sham acupuncture group (which they wouldn't know was actually sham acupuncture) reported pain relief, then you could ostensibly attribute 25% of the actual acupuncture's pain relief to placebo effect, meaning only an estimated 50% of actual acupuncture patients experienced pain relief attributable to acupuncture. Of course, in this study, the sham acupuncture group showed a HIGHER rate of pain relief, which casts doubt on acupuncture having any effect other than the placebo effect.



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 06:49 PM
link   

Originally posted by Unity_99
I found this very interesting:

projectcamelot.org...


Good FSM, you're quoting "project camelot" as an authoritative source?

It's good for lulz, sort of like reading Adachi's site, or Weekly World News, but it's definitely not Lancet or AJM, is it?



posted on May, 24 2010 @ 11:02 AM
link   
The point here would be understanding acupuncture and "chi practices" within the framework of a coming future civilization that is unifying the merits of Western science and freedom of thought with alternative or traditional treatments that work sometimes amazingly for some people. For such a worthy objective, the mentality of those traditions have to be studied.

Obviously, the Chinese theory of acupucnture will not satisfy a Western inquirer. However, it cannot be denied that there are good results for some people sometimes, and that they are partly specific - that is, they do relate to some "pathways" and not to others. In other works, acupuncture works sometimes and we do not know how. It will be an interesting attempt to find out how, and to separate reality from the mystic stuff. If anyone would do that unbiased, they would study the mentality of acupunturists together with what they do (and what it means at the micro-level, e.g. what sort of chemicals are triggered in the body when healing occurs.)

It would be unscientific to base the study of a practice that has had tremendous success merely upon the results on one doundle-blind study. This study and the other one about the arm pain only show that there is something missing in traditional explanations. Please do not throw the baby out with the bathwater! I respect the scientific scepticism of Dostupa, and I have to add that Chinese Taoists are also atheists, and that I personally think a lot of knowledge can be dug out from old Theocratic traditions without having to submit to backwards ancient idolatry.

The problem, logically, is generalization. It would be way too early to generalize these two studies of acupucnture to the entire practice. Thousands of studies are to be done if one wants to separate the wheat from the chaff. Various conditions have to be treated with only placebos and nothing and acupuncture as well as acupressure. Believe me, the modern Chinese are set out to do just that. Ever since Maoism swept though China and almost everything was destroyed from its traditions as far as writings and material objects go, the Chinese civilization has gone through a purge of these old mentalities. Maoism is a Western mentality, based in materialism and science, including Marxist sociology. Now Qigong was resurrected because it was found to increase health. The Chinese are in the best position to truly unify the merits of Western and traidtional approaches. Because of Maoism as well as the general forceful modernization of China, they tend to question and reevaluate everything. Because they have traditional practices stretching back to thousands of years, they have a lot of things to examine - including Tibetan practices (as Tibet is now regarded as part of China.)

I think a good scientist would avoid being dogmatic and biased as much as possible. There may be nothing but mumbo jumbo in some practices touted as alternative healing - such as the Guru's blessing or drinking urine etc. It would be a further obvious mistake of overgeneralization to spread the results from merely two clinical trials of trying to solve two particular problems by acupuncture to all and every medicine called "alternative" by Western medical practitioners. It would be also logically dogmatic. Such studies could be done on unsuccessful Western treatments as well, and one could - too early - draw the conclusion that Western medicine is no good at all, because it cannot cure certain problems in certain cases. This would eclipse the real results of Western medicine, the discovery of germs, the biological processes of chemicals and cells, evolution etc. Obviously, new agers who claim all Western medicine is trash and it is only driven by money-hungry pharma companies would again thrown the baby out with the bathwater. If it weren't for Semmelweis, for example, who insisted that obstetricians wash their hands with soap several times before moving on to the next patient, European mothers would still die of childbirth fever. The single greatest factor in raising the life expectancy of third world countries is introducing hygiene (which is based on the Western theory of germs) and not inoculations or their own medical practices.

Rife therapy is a thoroughly Western alternative treatment. I have experienced it to work on many things, including bacteria and viruses. Homeopathy is another Western alternative practice. They work sometimes, and they can work miracles in certain cases.

So in this whole interesting discussion I think we must remain open-minded if we want some good results. Another useful Occam's razor would be to scrap empty theorizing in favor of personal experience and studies.

If you have never experienced any good results from acupuncture yourself, and you start to theorize about it, it is only empty theory. If you participated in some studies, and want to think about things with more discernment than the Oriental practitioners, that is not empty - it would be attempting to create a useful hypothesis. Because then you have something to talk about.

If you have never experienced positive (and specific) results acupressure etc. yourself, go and find some people who have. Since this is a giant field of study, I do not think one could draw conclusions (such as ALL acupunture is a sham - or that acupunture ALWAYS works) without YEARS of studying cases, acupuncturists, people and animals who have undergone treatments etc. And, you would have to investigate the traditional theories and place yourself into them for the time being (otherwise there is no chance of real understanding, as Western psychology shows, by the way) to separate the wheat from the chaff.



posted on May, 24 2010 @ 11:09 AM
link   
I thought the OP meant they found a cure for people who think acupuncture does something useful



posted on May, 24 2010 @ 11:13 AM
link   
Re: the car and roads metaphor
This is a great metaphor. Causality and the mixing of logical levels is where biased posters her get caught up.
E.g. if one would study the actual making of roads at the micro-level, one could draw the conclusion that physically the roads are made by crews and they are designed by engineers.
However, if you study one level higher, you would find that a given society would have public needs that go to decisionmakers who then allocate money. The crew would not be at work for free. And it would be foolish to disregard the simple human equation that ina given amount of time, a few hundred thousand people who drive cars regulary moved out to a suburban region, and at their demands, through the channels of the world of local politics and money, roads are built. So, in a manner of speaking, the car drivers in the long run HAVE caused the building of the road.

The same occurs in human experience relating to healing. If one gets stressful or happy news, the body starts to make various neurotransmitters that would be difficult to reproduce in a lab. We still do not know the exact mechanisms of HOW this is done so quickly without solvents etc. How short sighted a UFO scientist would be if he or she would disregard the fact that the person received the news, and try to explain a macro happening only from causality at the micro-level? Such as the "real" cause of the person's betterment is simply the endorphine molecules?

Such an approach would be mechanistic, dogmatic, and as such, it would contravene the basic logical categories and classes of Western science as explained by Bertrand Russell (and applied in modern linguistics and code theories as well).



posted on Aug, 15 2010 @ 07:16 AM
link   
reply to post by Blaine91555
 


When they adopted Western Medicine their life expectancy went up dramatically.

Bravo! That one sentence repudiates all the Mystical Eastern waste matter being flung about by our New Age pals on this thread.

I am from the East. I am perfectly placed to observe the relative efficacies of western and eastern diagnostic and curative systems. I've tried many varieties of the latter at different times in my life.

Some practical Eastern techniques, such as acupuncture and the musculoskeletal treatment skills of traditional practitioners in my own country, often do work, but their practitioners haven't a clue why they do. Their medicine is not based on systemic knowledge but on centuries of trial and error. Their medical 'knowledge' is magic and mumbo-jumbo, the same meaningless as-above-so-below nonsense peddled by New Age snake-oil sellers.

Incidentally, at least one of the people promoting that kind of nonsense on this thread sells his own brand of New Age snake oil for a living. Wouldn't you know it?



new topics

top topics



 
8
<< 4  5  6   >>

log in

join