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Possible Cause of Relief from Acupuncture Found

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posted on May, 14 2010 @ 04:01 AM
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reply to post by VneZonyDostupa
 


It's already been said earlier in this thread, nobody is arguing for a "magical" force, merely one that has not yet been detected and measured by science.

Anybody with a real understanding of science knows that it is an ever-changing, constantly fluid process of challenging our understanding of the universe to test every theory to see if we can prove it wrong.

Those without a real understanding of science spout nonsense like this. They believe that science is finished, complete, a collection of right answers that are always right under the same conditions. They cling to their faith in science not out of intelligence, but fear. They trust in science to assure them that there's no God, when in reality they merely replace God with science, and give it their unwavering devotion instead.

A real scientific mind begs to be proven wrong. It yearns to detect the undetected. It does not arrogantly believe that it's own inadequacies are in any way evidence for anything.

Every moment of every day, your body has television channels, radio channels, internet chatter, text messages, pornography, mobile phone conversations, all sorts of signals and waves passing undisturbed through your body. You see none of them, hear none of them, feel none of them, and are completely oblivious to all of them, unless you happen to be carrying a magical talisman, made of plastic, glass, metal and ceramics, that is capable of dipping in to this mystical ether of information and pulling out what's relevant to you.

Everything is unproven and undetected and unexplained... until it isn't, and then it stops being called magic.



[edit on 14-5-2010 by TheIrvy]




posted on May, 14 2010 @ 07:15 AM
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reply to post by Bedlam
 


Would you please cite credible sources for that?

In acupressure, you learn to press where your fingers and toes hurt. That is a predecessor experience of acupunture. You can do it yourself. No one teaches you where they are, but it is obvious that if you hit the right point it hurts then the hurt gradually goes away and (e.g. if it hurts on the side of certain toes) the condition - say, stuffed nose - improves.

Then you can ask a person more learned in ways of Oriental medicine why there and not somewhere else.

I am sorry if you never had that experience.

Since my personal experience and of many around flatly contradicts your
alleged research, and it has been that way for over 25 years, I am inclined to believe that it was a study biased to disprove acupunture - just like there are enemies of homeopathy etc. - until you prove the contrary to me.



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 11:25 AM
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reply to post by VneZonyDostupa
 


I enjoyed reading the OP's statement:


Obviously, there is no mystical energy flowing through us ...


There is nothing "Mystical" about it.

It is now understood that our central nervous system IS electrical in nature and measurable via medical instrumentation in the form of nerve impulses and Brain Waves.

So we are talking about physics when it comes to the functions of the Brain and nervous system of which the medical community are not well versed in. For the simple fact that they are not Physicists.

Additionally, it is medical fact that there exist regions of the human brain that western medical science to this day don't fully understand.

Just perhaps, these unexplored areas of the brain will be discovered as being the "Mystical Energy" called Chi.

I feel that if our medical science knew all that there was to know about medicine, there would be a cure for cancer by now for example.

But exactly WHY we have no cure for cancer ?

For the simple fact that western medicine is BIG Business, motivated by profits. As well as the simple fact that there is considerably more profit to be made in the treatment than the cure !

And that's the Bottom Line.



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 11:32 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


don't try to prove skyfloating wrong, he is NEVER wrong...

mystical chi energy FTW!!


screw the new-age crap!!



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 11:57 AM
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The first time I used Acupuncture was 3 days after I had quit smoking. The withdrawal symptoms were unpleasant and I was seeking relief from those symptoms. I knew not what Acupuncture is but my doctor (a normal western medical doctor) recommended it so I went through it.

I was shocked to feel energy-pulses throughout and even outside of my body, involuntary jerks of electricity at the needle points and then the nicotine-withdrawal symptoms being wiped out right after session to the point of having no interest in cigarettes whatsoever.

That shift in psychology was the strangest thing. It was not the kind of repression you get from pharmaceuticals, but a real sense of relief. I felt high for several days after.

I was asked to do follow-up-sessions and I did although I did not have the impression that they were necessary.



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 12:30 PM
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Originally posted by GTORick

Bees stings contain venom. It is not a good comparison to acupuncture which does not inject medicine of any kind.


Yet apipuncture was most likely the precursor of acupuncture, so not only is it a good comparison to acupuncture, it's the forerunner of it.

Some Chinese acupuncturists still use bees for some people, the points are about the same, but there are a couple you're not supposed to use bees on.



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by bringthelight
If your in the Boston area, your first reiki treatment is on me.


Reiki is another one of those treatment modalities that
has about the same results
if a "real" practitioner does it, or if a sham practitioner pretends to do it.

I'm also sort of leery about techniques that claim to be able to cure you from hundreds of miles away, like reiki or qi gong. "Sure, I'll give you a treatment from here, what's your credit card number?"

edit: sometimes I really hate ATS' text editing box, it keeps putting the post back the way it was no matter how much you edit it at times

[edit on 14-5-2010 by Bedlam]

[edit on 14-5-2010 by Bedlam]



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Why cant you see that "meridians" (their word) are the "pathways" (your word)
and the "chi" (their word) may be your "biochemical processes" (your word.)


Because they're not. You're stretching to try to fit the phrase "biochemical pathway" to "meridian", in this case it's not a fit. "pathway" is a way to describe a cascade of reactions, not a channel for some unmeasurable force to flow in.

Also 'chi' doesn't seem to fit 'biochemical process' either, as I understand how you guys use the term.

However, I will volunteer for you to chi the hell out of a test animal, and I'll give one some sort of biochemical inhibitor, and we can see which one dies first. The issue here is that when tested, chi either doesn't seem to defeat the null hypothesis, or its p values are very shaky and the tests aren't very replicable. The only times I've seen it "proven" seem to come out of "labs" that exist only to research chi, which I'd tend to relate to the Tobacco Institute effect.



Besides, I think YOU are mistaking correlation and causation. Remember what Popper said about science "proving" things. In truth, science tells us what DOESN'T cause something.


That's a potent tool, though. Let's say we do a test as to whether chi can cause some particular effect on a biological system. One that's properly set up, blinded and with a large enough sample will rarely show an effect that can't be ascribed to the null hypothesis, that is, it's not doing anything we can detect. So you learn that chi DOESN'T cause effect x, at least not sufficiently different than just metaphorically throwing dice and getting random results, once you weed out placebo effects.

Most studies are set up that way, too, you are trying to show that your study has effects that are distinguishable from your null hypothesis, which is generally that your particular thing does nothing at all.



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Its energy, as I see it. I have no problem with the idea of energy flowing down channels in the body, mostly because even Western science knows it does. I am sure you know how nerves work, etc.


First, the term 'energy' as used in science is "the ability to do work", not "life force" "goodness" "oneness" etc - there's an unfortunate tendency to try to match up the terms from New Age and physics that doesn't map well.

But let's think about nerves. Nerves do not supply energy to the muscles. They convey a signal to or from the body, but they do not supply the power to effect that change. That's biochemical in nature. Even the signal the nerves supply is chemical - there's a sloppy tendency to view it as electrical, but currents do not flow down nerves like power through a wire.



So your objection cant be that you dont feel there is energy in the human body. What part of Chi do you feel is so out of line with the laws of physics?


Energy is there, alright, but it's energy derived (for the most part) from glucolysis, Krebs and oxidative phosphorylation which produce ATP. You run from energy stored in the chemical bonds of ATP (with some exceptions).

In physics, there are a number of forces which are believed to comprise pretty much everything we know of. That doesn't mean there aren't more, just that we find we can generally explain things we see using those, and that when we look for them, they're there more or less in the amounts we predict. That doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of unknowns - there are - but in general you don't want to go making up new ones when what you see is explainable without. Thus we decided that N-rays were not real, back in 1903.

When you look at "chi", it doesn't appear to be electromagnetic, it can't be the strong or weak forces, it isn't gravity. That doesn't leave much. However, in well-designed tests, chi doesn't seem to have to be there, it looks like a placebo. So, given that we know that other reasons exist to explain healing and the like, there doesn't seem to be a need to add in 'chi' when it looks a lot like a placebo, statistically.



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by Kokatsi
Would you please cite credible sources for that?


There are lots, the first one I hit was this one.



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by nh_ee
There is nothing "Mystical" about it.

It is now understood that our central nervous system IS electrical in nature and measurable via medical instrumentation in the form of nerve impulses and Brain Waves.


Not at all. Your nervous system uses a really interesting electrochemical process, but there's no longitudinal current flow like you'd get down a wire, except between nodes of Ranvier. What's happening is a lot more like setting up a train of dominoes - your nerves polarize by pumping one sort of ion out and another in to the cell. When the neuron fires, the signal propagates transversely down the cell body - ion channels open sequentially and the ions that were pumped out swap places, like knocking the dominoes over. When the wave of depolarization reaches the synapse, the change in charge causes little packets of chemicals to be released into the gap. In the case of a gap junction synapse, it's a bit different.

You can see the depolarization happening on a very sensitive measuring device like an EEG machine. But the minute electrical effects are the thunder, the chemicals are the lightning that does the work.



Just perhaps, these unexplored areas of the brain will be discovered as being the "Mystical Energy" called Chi.


Or more likely, you'll find that they're some sort of feature extraction area for auditory data or whatnot.



I feel that if our medical science knew all that there was to know about medicine, there would be a cure for cancer by now for example.

But exactly WHY we have no cure for cancer ?


Can chi always cure cancer? I'd guess not, since Chinese also die from it.

But then, there isn't a thing called "cancer" that you can cure. There are many types of cancer, all different in some degree, and it's not likely any one thing will fix them all.



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 01:34 PM
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Originally posted by paronomasia
reply to post by Skyfloating
 


don't try to prove skyfloating wrong, he is NEVER wrong...

mystical chi energy FTW!!


screw the new-age crap!!


You can't seriously think Chi is new-age.



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 01:52 PM
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If you really want to know why, or how, acupuncture provides just read/look below:

It is via vagal (cranial nerve X) stimulation. Acupoint BL15, Acupoint LI10, and Neiguan acupoint P6. Stimulation decreases heart rate (RR interval increases), and lowers serum cytokine concentrations. Serum TNF will decrease with more ACh release which --> ultimately decreases inflammation that is attributed to many diseases (RA, OA, any ~itis disease you can think of).



Not to be a jerk, but this data is not new.
Actual Clinical Studies:
Hsu CC et al. Am J Chin Med 2006;34:23-36
Huang ST et al. Am J Chin Med 2005;33:157-64
Sakai S et al. Auton Neurosci 2007;133:158-69



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa

Yes, if we had complete genetic panels on patients, we would be able to compare that data with those who experience effects from given placebos, and given enough data power, I could look at the patients profile and make a reasonably accurate determination. That's how genetic medicine works, and it's been a boon to many fields of medicine.


If we were able to keep track of enough variables we could probably predict the future with absolute accuracy too. We dont have that kind of "data power," and I think bringing in "magic" solutions is cheating just a tad. We cant do what you are saying. Genetic medicine is a great boon, and I am all for it. But it is in its infancy. And it cant do what you are claiming, yet, regardless what it may be able to do in the future.


Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
It's not inexact. You're misunderstanding again. When I have a patient with a given infection, I know that a collection of X-number of drugs will combat it,


It is inexact. You have to go through a lot of hitting and missing sometimes to even get to what the patient has. You give me a computer and the name of a baterium and I can "exactly" cure it. But thats not the art of medicine. You have to be able to even isolate the supposed cause, and that part is highly inexact. I would guess of all the treatments I have received in my life, perhaps 25% of them were necessary and correct. If I am generous.


Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
"Western medicine" isn't an individual, so I can't presume to speak for every person who falls under that umbrella. It's a bit disingenuous for you to do it, as well.


There are treatments that are accepted in the medicine you practice that will be found to be utterly pointless for the diseases for which they are prescribed in time. Do you think this is true? Or are you stating that you believe that every treatment that is commonly prescribed in the west by MDs, is an actual cure for the ailment it is used to combat.

Again, in the medicine YOU practice, you acknowledge that not all doctors say the same things, do the same things, treat the same way, etc., but when it comes to the "mystic" stuff, you make no such distinctions.


Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
Stress can cause ulcers on it's own, yes. It has an enormous impact on the endocrine (such as increasing glucocorticoid synthesis) and immune systems. Without the stress stimuli, these modulations wouldn't occur, and the ulcer wouldn't be as likely to occur. Just because YOU are under stress and not developing ulcers doesn't mean ALL patients under stress won't develop them.


I understand the some/all issue, lol. We all know that stress wrecks havoc in the body, both by lowering defenses and by saturating organs in chemicals that are not good for them in high prolonged doses, but it is just a contributor, unless you are willing to take the broader road and say stress causes most ailments. Who is to say, perhaps no one would catch the flu if they were not stressed in some way. Obviously not ALL people who are exposed to the virus develop symptoms.


Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
There's a very good reason I do this. Modern medicine is based on average and likelihood ratios. Alternative therapies aren't. I have never seen someone promoting an alternative therapy who says "this treatment often works for some patients". Instead, they say things like "Rife machines WILL cure ALL cancers". When you dabble in absolutism, don't be surprised when you're challenged with similar absolutes.


Here you are being unfair. "Alternative medicine is not an individual, and it is a bit disingenuous...... yadda yadda." Apply your own reasoning to your arguments as well.

My only argument with you is that you are not holding both to the same standard. I agree that there are bunk practitioners. (in both fields) I agree that there are those who makes absolutist claims. I even agree that alternate treatments should be studied as rigorously as we study anything else. What I dont agree is that it entitles a thinking person to indulge in the same nonsense.

What I dont agree with is being derisive and dismissive of things that have some "mystic" component. Mystic just means "we dont know" or "we cant quantify" functionally. It is "magic" because we havent yet studied it. Look at all the interesting stuff coming out of studying brains and meditation, now that we have the imaging to quantify that "mystic hoohah."

Heck, look at the article in the OP. Study a thing, rather than dismiss it, and we might learn something. Perhaps that something wont be what it was CLAIMED to be, by ancient peoples who had limited technology, but we may still learn something.



Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
A large portion of that 100-year old text regarding tuberculosis is still valid. The bacterium is, indeed, inhaled as a main route of infection. Proper diet has a positive effect on the immune system thus limiting the spread of tuberculum granulations and maintaining lung capacity. Obviously, they didn't have anti-virals then, so being "left to take care of itself" is all they could really do. Some cases of TB never progress beyond a few granulations, so it would seem ot be cured in a time before X-rays were standard.


Again, you are being very generous with their "correlation must equal causation" errors. But you just arent as generous with those who were doing the exact same thing in other cultures and times. And yes, there is still a lot valid in regard to TB in that book. However, you if you chose to look for it, you could find whole ailments that were completely wrong from diagnosis to treatment. Its just what you choose to look at. Self selecting bias.

Honestly, I dont think you and I disagree on much, except your closed mindedness regarding things labeled "mystic."



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 02:12 PM
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reply to post by Bedlam
 


I am not trying to say that for certain, exactly, "meridians mean the same thing as pathways." I am pointing out, in a general sense, not to get too fixated on terms. Especially when going waaaaaay back in time, when they did not have the same technology we did, or any of the imaging, microscopes, etc.

As for "chi-ing the hell out of an animal" the problem with that is we cant measure "chi." Can we? We cant locate it in the body, we cant measure it, etc., so we cant really tell if you are "chi-ing the hell out of an animal."

Although, I would guess that if controlled studies were done, with someone purporting to "chi the hell out of an animal," that whether or not we could measure the actual "chi" if we could measure the result, and eliminate other non-chi causes, it would be a big case builder for chi.

After all, we often in physics assume something exists not because we can see it, or measure it itself, but because we can see its effects on other measurable things.


And this is where I agree with the sentiments of the OP, completely. Do something to quantify your claims. Sure, we cant yet measure chi directly, if it is a separate "force," but if it does what people claim it does, lets begin to document the effects of it until we can measure it directly. Instead of just making wild claims and vague promises.



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by Bedlam

First, the term 'energy' as used in science is "the ability to do work", not "life force" "goodness" "oneness" etc - there's an unfortunate tendency to try to match up the terms from New Age and physics that doesn't map well.


You are right, they dont always map up very well. Which is why in context, I wasnt arguing for that as a definition, I was arguing against the attempt to "map" the terms in the first place. My whole point was to not fixate too much on the terms.

I am not defending Chi as any specific definition. At all. It means life force. Is there a life force? I would say yes. There is. Perhaps instead of looking for it in one location we should consider it the way they are considering consciousness.

www.newscientist.com...


Signals from the electrodes seem to show that consciousness arises from the coordinated activity of the entire brain.


Maybe Chi is the "coordinated activity of the entire body including the brain." Who knows. I dont claim to. I find it silly when others dismiss it completely, prematurely. I love science, but I dislike it when others who claim to love science take their claims too far. Yes, falsifiability is a powerful tool, but it is different than positive proof, and the line should be drawn there. Its good enough as it is without us making liars out of ourselves.

Science can say nothing about God. It cannot say God does, or does not exist. Why? Because we have nothing to test. Same with Chi. We should remain agnostic about both until such time presents itself for us to do otherwise, or, we should stop pretending some superiority of reason over those who are simply "true believers." Unjustified negative belief is not better than unjustified positive belief.






[edit on 14-5-2010 by Illusionsaregrander]



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 04:08 PM
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I think some here have got a bit focused on the PATHWAYS rather than WHAT flows down them.

This is a very typical non holistic western mechanical view, and also shows a type of approach and exploration of the fine detail rather than the big picture.

It is like an alien or viitor from a remote culture, first seeng and studying transport systems in the western world.

They notice and measure that Cars seem to move from one point to another. And reasoning that the ROADS (meridians) transport the cars, or even contain the force or energy that propels them. It is noticed by the observer that sometimes cars get stuck together behing traffic lights when they are Red. Then sometimes if on a stretch you manipulate all the lights to be green it flows naturally, or when lots of them move, not moving very fast (traffic jams- inflamation/illness)

This could easily be made by such an observer on first glance, (western study mentioned) without knowing what, a car is made of, never mind opening the engine, then realising again that the engine drives it but again that needs Fuel to do this.

CHI or the energy mentioned, that Runs along the pathways or Meridians (roads) is seperate from and not caused or related in any way to those Pathways. When Accupuncture is used or Acu pressure, or massage, or Heat applied etc, this is just like clearing a broken down car from road blocking the traffic behind it, or turning the Traffic lights to green or red depending on if too much or little of this energy is flowing. Like a road there are two lanes on these meridians that this Chi flows down (yin/yang), both need to flow equally and freely for the road to be cleared and all to be well.

Acupuncture is not the healing just a modality of getting the flow and balance and obstructions cleared. Like a Road again if the road is clear and all is well, if at the end of the roads there is nowhere for the cars to exit the roads like driveways/garages/parking lots (body cleansing out toxins, filtering etc) the road will back up no matter how well the traffic lights are managed.

Anyhow without going to deep into further analogies, Petrol will burn if in a car or not, and is not dependant on cars to burn or be as its nature is.

I welcome this new research but hopefully my analogy shows how far from the true source of the enrgy this current research is, we have not in western science even quantified the cars yet, the two differant highways they drive down (seeing a road and just thinking it is one type of flow, without seeing the nature of it like humans, I am human so is my Mum, we are both humans, mammals, but I am male she is female, same but very differant), never mind the nature of the fuel that gives the entire process any movement at all.

I have practised among many Modalities Tai Chi for very many years daily usually. I have a Medical Science backround when younger as well. Using Tai Chi, with some other things, I have experienced some very very rapid healing on myself, which even though being in a category of "90% mortality expectation within 24 hours, if survives that 75% mortality over 12 months. However even if he is that lucky will never Walk, talk or have normal neurological functions again" basically put into a cabbage category at best. This event nov 28th 2004, something worse happened 2 days later, again 1 day later. Multiple rescuscitations, coma for 9 days following that, no brain stem response, discussions on how to reduce my water/food intake. Walked unaided out of hospital, no medication (even for pain even though x3 8-14 hour long Operations, much bone removed, many many internal bleeds, more titanium in me than the Million dollar man, etc etc), 1 visit back to hospital 6 months later for cosmetic surgery to cover up what had been done, 1 visit 1 year later 30 mins to check fixes etc. As said nov 28th 2004 coma Ops as said Crashing, no brain stem responce, walked out unaided, to fully support myself no help December 23rd 2004.

How? Done the medicine bit when younger, knew as awoke from Coma upon 2-3 days of questioning what situation was in, DECIDED to not be a vegtable as had cared for at times myself, Knew the implications, pulled out catheters, crawled adamantly no help to toilet, insisted in self care and hygeine, got myself into toilet/bathroom for at least 2 hours (was not easy and quick at first) every morning locked door got my Tai Chi going again, certain Meditation CHI healing techniques I have and had practised for years from the Tibetan tradition, ignored everyone, blanked them got myself to single room insisted within 3 days of waking, Tai Chi, Breathing, Meditation 18 hours a day.

If it does not exist or work I would be not replying to you now. What have I done this week, like most weeks since then, working (now for self, 3 years prior caring for someone else with severe mental health/physical issues in family) 60 hours a week or more, plus my Practise both Tai Chi and mediattion/Tibetan. I left the house at 6am this morning, is 21.46pm now got in 10 mins ago, same as every day this week have worked full day 10hours plus, and done family things and socialised. Will have around like every day 5 hours sleep. Weekend tommorrow, full booked as work day going on an course. Clear headed, lucid full of energy, even time to post occassionaly on ATS lol.

Talk whatever chemical names, and such like you want, have in past given them to clients/patiants and decided when, know the score have the qualifications, many years of experience at extreme end of both emergency First/second responce, and mental health extreme end of both.

As sky says get out more etc... see the wood from the trees.

It took me more than an year to get my driving licence back from the DVLA in britain medical dept as their "Experts" refused to accept what happened did and a full recovery had happened. Loads and loads of tests, cognitive, neurological, medical, psychological, etc etc upon tests upon tests until they agreed. Have a letter stating from them that even though it is not their normal prcedure, it is "obvious" from the tests and investigations that I made a complete, full and unusual recovery from what happened. Full license back.

I dont normally mention it all as I have, however just I know my experience has been repeated in other cases with people who use the same techniques, and have been doing it for many years before hand when such accidents occur. It is therefore repeatable and scientifically proven. I add this then to counterbalance the YIN approach of this thread with some Yang and therefore allow balance and evidense of what does happen with this subject, in real actual peoples lives.

What Medical science does not take into account though is that the holistic and individual nature of each person. We are not chemical compounds that always react in the same way. I know though that if anyone was in a similar position to me, had the experience, practise before hand, knowledge of how to do it, acted in the same way, did the same practises and visualisation, had that connection to CHI before hand, thought the same things, they to would heal themselves above any modern expectations of an purely mechanistic view.

I suppose these Monks below are just using "Placebo" to melt the snow around them?


(click to open player in new window)


Amazing how that self placebo, affects the snow around them, seperate from themselves eh? And breaks all known Scientific Knowledge on the ability of the human body in such situations, maybe they had a very big vindaloo?

Kind Regards,

Elf.



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 04:58 PM
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reply to post by MischeviousElf
 


What if your putative observers decide that cars cause roads? After all, anywhere you see a car, there's generally a road. And on the occasion that you see a car OFF a road, it's often true that over time, if a number of cars travel that same path, a road will eventually start to form. First gravel, then pavement, then if a LOT of cars go down that road, it'll grow extra lanes!

Proof that cars make roads grow!

Only, it's not so. Cars and roads are correlated, but not causative.

You and I have seen asphalt machines in other places, that your UFO people in your example did not. Now, maybe we haven't seen a road crew in action yet. But we do know that there is such a thing as asphalt - we've seen the plant. And we know that most roads are asphalt. And we've also discovered asphalt transport trucks. If we use our metaphor power to break the asphalt plants, then road development in the area seems to slow dramatically. Therefore, it's a good bet that roads are NOT made by cars, as the UFOnians have believed for thousands of years, but are actually being made by some sort of asphalt applying device that we haven't observed yet, mostly using asphalt from the local plant, but not entirely, since road construction continued at a slower pace when we shut down the plant, and stopped when we broke the asphalt trucks.

Now, the ancient UFOnians have built up a lore of cars-make-roads that actually seems to match observation at times. But it's a bad model - once you know about the asphalt plant you come to realize that while the cars-make-roads view of road building was a good model given the info they had, it's not really what's happening. The "asphalt-chi" that the UFOnians view required to explain how the cars actually made roads was moot - despite cars having tar on them when new roads appeared, the roads weren't laid down by mysterious aspho-chi from the cars, but by something entirely different - there's a road building crew.



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Acupuncture is not the healing just a modality of getting the flow and balance and obstructions cleared.


Please explain, then, how sham acupuncture produces similar, if not more efficacious, effects as true acupuncture. This would suggest to me that the attention being paid to the patient or the idea of acupuncture has a placebo effect, but not an actual effect.



posted on May, 14 2010 @ 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
If we were able to keep track of enough variables we could probably predict the future with absolute accuracy too. We dont have that kind of "data power," and I think bringing in "magic" solutions is cheating just a tad. We cant do what you are saying. Genetic medicine is a great boon, and I am all for it. But it is in its infancy. And it cant do what you are claiming, yet, regardless what it may be able to do in the future.


We can do what I've claimed, we have the data power to do it, and we are able to keep track of the number of variables required. The roadblocks are the insurance companies, who want to use genotyping as a means to restructure premiums, and the government, who is preventing genotyping out of fear of the insurance companies.




It is inexact. You have to go through a lot of hitting and missing sometimes to even get to what the patient has. You give me a computer and the name of a baterium and I can "exactly" cure it. But thats not the art of medicine. You have to be able to even isolate the supposed cause, and that part is highly inexact. I would guess of all the treatments I have received in my life, perhaps 25% of them were necessary and correct. If I am generous.


Imprecise and inexact are not the same thing, in epidemiologic terms. I would much rather be imprecise than inexact. Also, I wager a large sum of money that your percent is exaggerated to a great degree, though obviously there is no way to prove or disprove an anecdote, so I'll leave it at that.


Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
There are treatments that are accepted in the medicine you practice that will be found to be utterly pointless for the diseases for which they are prescribed in time. Do you think this is true?


No, I don't. Even drugs that are no longer used anymore serve as the foundation molecule for the more effective drugs we use now. The same goes for more archaic surgical practices.


Or are you stating that you believe that every treatment that is commonly prescribed in the west by MDs, is an actual cure for the ailment it is used to combat.


You're putting words in my mouth, I don't like that. Some treatments aren't cures, but are means of boosting the individual's immune system, the causative metabolic defect, or are simply a support mechanism that allows the bodies natural defense system to beat back the ailment. This is how bacteriostatic antibiotics, one of the most common treatments given for infection, work. They don't kill the bacteria, they just halt their growth and allow the immune system to do it's job without being overgrown.


Again, in the medicine YOU practice, you acknowledge that not all doctors say the same things, do the same things, treat the same way, etc., but when it comes to the "mystic" stuff, you make no such distinctions.


Well, out of the hundreds, possibly thousands, of links, pages, texts, and videos I've seen regarding alternative therapies, I can confidently say I have NEVER seen an alternative medicine practicionter/pusher who suggested it might not work. Every single one of them claimed "this WILL cure cancer" or "this WILL make you better" or "this WILL rid you of toxins". There is no statistical data given, no margin of error, and no percent-success given. If you can show me some of these studies or data, I wil lgladly eat my words and stop generalizing.



I understand the some/all issue, lol. We all know that stress wrecks havoc in the body, both by lowering defenses and by saturating organs in chemicals that are not good for them in high prolonged doses, but it is just a contributor, unless you are willing to take the broader road and say stress causes most ailments. Who is to say, perhaps no one would catch the flu if they were not stressed in some way. Obviously not ALL people who are exposed to the virus develop symptoms.


Again, you're putting words in my mouth. Stress can cause SOME ailments, not most. Stress-induced shifts in endocrine excretion can be very potent, causing a depression in the immune system, metabolic regulatory shifts, vasoconstriction, and so on. These are all direct contributors to some (not most) ailments.


Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
Here you are being unfair. "Alternative medicine is not an individual, and it is a bit disingenuous...... yadda yadda." Apply your own reasoning to your arguments as well.


See my point above about the claims of alternative medicine.


My only argument with you is that you are not holding both to the same standard. I agree that there are bunk practitioners. (in both fields) I agree that there are those who makes absolutist claims. I even agree that alternate treatments should be studied as rigorously as we study anything else. What I dont agree is that it entitles a thinking person to indulge in the same nonsense.


I don't think I need to hold them to the same standard, as they don't hold THEMSELVES to the same standards. The people I see pushing alternative therapies, especially on this site, have a strong aversion to exploratory studies. I've seen no data to support things like Rife machines, peroxide therapy, urine therapy (I was absolutely abhorred at that thread), or anything of the sort. It's not until Western-practicing MDs step in that we being to see actual data on these practices.


What I dont agree with is being derisive and dismissive of things that have some "mystic" component. Mystic just means "we dont know" or "we cant quantify" functionally. It is "magic" because we havent yet studied it. Look at all the interesting stuff coming out of studying brains and meditation, now that we have the imaging to quantify that "mystic hoohah."


Everything we've found regarding mediation and the brain fits within the current paradigm of physiology. Nothing we have found fits any Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, etc. paradigm of transcedence, awakening, or any sort of paranormal gibberish. I readily admit that I am biased against mysticism, being an atheist, but even so, I don't see how you can compare scientific findings on these topics with the claims made by alternative therapy pushers.


Heck, look at the article in the OP. Study a thing, rather than dismiss it, and we might learn something. Perhaps that something wont be what it was CLAIMED to be, by ancient peoples who had limited technology, but we may still learn something.


This is my point. I love that we are studying it, and I love that we are learning something useful. What I DON'T love is when people take the data and inject mystical ideas of chi, awakening, or anything else like that into it. The data showed a clear biochemical mechanism. End of story.




Again, you are being very generous with their "correlation must equal causation" errors. But you just arent as generous with those who were doing the exact same thing in other cultures and times. And yes, there is still a lot valid in regard to TB in that book. However, you if you chose to look for it, you could find whole ailments that were completely wrong from diagnosis to treatment. Its just what you choose to look at. Self selecting bias.


I admit, I skimmed the latter half of the link, but I didn't see anything radically incorrect. There were a few things that were a bit more vague than we currently know, and some conditions were being treated with archaic (though admittedly effective for the time) treatments.


Honestly, I dont think you and I disagree on much, except your closed mindedness regarding things labeled "mystic."


I prefer to call it "data-centric" rather than closed minded



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