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Possible Cause of Relief from Acupuncture Found

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posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:45 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating

Only in the eyes of a group of hardcore-materialists. According to almost every culture, religion and tradition, there is. And unfamiliarity with that energy is the #1 cause of all problems.


There are all SORTS of things that one can attribute to culture, religion and tradition, though, and not all of them seem rational to us now, wouldn't you agree?

What if "chi" or "life energy" fall into those slots? And the "#1 cause" of all problems is simply that people are perverse, argumentative SOBs?

I believe in ATP, personally.




posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:52 PM
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reply to post by Bedlam
 


Actually its not turned off, rather slowed down. If you give a guy long enough time and a comfortable and natural environment (south pacific island, jungle, desert, las Vegas, or anything the paTIENT finds suiting him best would suffice), the self-heal would work pretty good.
But you dont get that when the "man" requires you to be back at work for a slave loan monday morning 6pm.

Its the "system" that prevents these capabilities of sufficient self-healing from full functionality

[edit on 13-5-2010 by Dynamitrios]



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:59 PM
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reply to post by Dynamitrios
 


While I'm sure that is involved too, I was thinking more of man's inability to, say, form a blastema and regrow lost limbs or something.

MRL mice can regenerate missing bits better than you or I, and it's due to one or two small genetic modifications. There's been a lot of work on why you don't regrow limbs like an axolotl, and the initial poop is that there's maybe only a handful of genes that have been disabled there, too.

Maybe it's like L-gulonolactone - you can still turn it on and all the other systems are there, and could still function - at least it is in guinea pigs.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready


How can the mere "expectation" of healing actually cause a physical manifestation? I can expect to win the lottery tomorrow, but it probably won't happen. I have believed 100% for certain that the next card would be a spade and bet 100's of dollars on it and been wrong!

The placebo effect is real. We agree on that. But if it is real, then it has an explanation. If it has an explanation, and the explanation is not the medicine itself, then what is the biological explanation. A "suggestion" or an "expectation" is capable of creating a chemical and biological response within the body that "heals" whatever is intended. How is that "not mystical at all?" If we could understand it better, there would never be a reason for medicines. We could all fix ourselves with placebos!


[edit on 13-5-2010 by getreadyalready]


That has to be one of the best rebuttals I have seen on ATS.


My congratulations on the clarity of your thinking



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
Obviously, there is no mystical energy flowing through us

Acupuncture


i disagree, however.

may not be mystical but its there.



[edit on 13-5-2010 by phi1618]



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 06:59 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
The results of Acupuncture far surpass mere "relief". Ive seen it cure just about anything. Anyone who's done a few sessions can feel the tingling and energy all over the body and even in the bodies surroundings.



Obviously, there is no mystical energy flowing through us


Yes there is.

[edit on 13-5-2010 by Skyfloating]


It seams to me that everything works off of pressure from physicality to psychology to sociology which really makes sense when it comes to the universe having equilibrium. This explains tides to how an engine works and even to gravity. Even god "Breathed" into the nostrals of man. Babies can't inhale a breath till they exhale the birth fluid...just a change of pressure.

"Under Pressure"....Queen (You know the song Vanilla Ice stole..."Alright stop collaborate and listen"..."Too Cold")

Peace



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 07:01 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


There is nothing wrong with things like this but can you give a single documented example where any disease was cured by Acupuncture that is not anecdotal?

The power of suggestion is very powerful. Look how its abused in VooDoo today and Shamanism throughout history. It's a confidence game. It's practitioners are confidence persons. I highly doubt they believe in it themselves any more than a Magician believes they use real magic.

Look at China. When they adopted Western Medicine their life expectancy went up dramatically. It was so remarkable practicing old folk medicine is now Black Market in China as such con-games are illegal there now.

Give a guy some powdered sugar in a capsule and tell him it will take his pain away and it may work. Not because the powder is of any value, but because he believes it will work. We all know that Placebo's work on part of the population, the same part that fills the conman's pockets.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 07:04 PM
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I have had acupuncture and specifically for nerve damage which was part of an overall larger injury that got me medically discharged from the army as a Combat Radio Operator with the Royal Corps of Signals. Anyway a major part of my debilitation was the to have relentless and merciless pain in my right shoulder down my arm to the inside of my forearm and it used to drive me nuts because it nagged and nagged and never went away. A good description is to imagine banging your funny bone and then imagine that nerve “twang” never leaving (horrible).

The nerve there was a real cause of misery to me but an acupuncturist placed needles in my arm and I lay down on a gurney as she left me alone for half an hour. During that half an hour I watched the half a dozen needles actually pulse and move one after another a delay of a half a second between them, moving left and right in a gentle pendulum motion. It was amazing to watch them and the first time I noticed it I started to tense up as it was unnerving but in tensing up it started to ache. The moment I relaxed and the sensation it became pleasant.

Eventually I fell asleep and woke to find the nurse looking down at me with a huge smile on her face and telling me ‘You really took to it like a duck to water.’

Several more sessions of this acupuncture and I no longer had any pain in my right arm at all (quick I know) which is incredible because how can half a dozen ultra fine needles do this? Before this acupuncture treatment I used to have to sleep with my arm raised above my head to keep the nerve as unstressed as possible as elevating the arm is a relaxed position regarding the nerves and tendons in the arms. The acupuncturist told me this as I cooed about the awesome affect of the needles but to be fair an army doctor had also told me this years before about the arm elevation trick, so yes it was habit by the time I started the acupuncture and it still is today.

This is a subjective but in my opinion these needles do not just plug a gap in a nerve or fix a kink, they touch an energy as I am certain that I felt it and the pulse of the needles relaxed me as I watched them move in my flesh until I reached the point where I shut my eyes and drifted off into sleep.

My opinion is that the needles touch biological energy and enhance it, heal it even but I am no acupuncturist but I saw what I saw, felt what I felt and that is good enough for me.


[edit on 13-5-2010 by SmokeJaguar67]



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 07:31 PM
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reply to post by SmokeJaguar67
 


If it worked. It has value. Why it worked does not matter. It is great it worked for you.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 07:39 PM
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Just because we have not yet developed scientific instruments capable of measuring the field around the human body does not mean it does not exist. We haven't developed scientific equipment capable of detecting dark matter either, but we do believe that exists.

I assure you, in a consistent and repeatable way, I can feel, detect, interact with and manipulate my own energy field and other people's, animals and plants. Can I scientifically prove it or in any way validate that? No. Neither can I prove that I dreamt I had a dense, wiry Rolf Harris beard last night. I assure you, I did.

[edit on 13-5-2010 by TheIrvy]



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 07:41 PM
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My dog is 16 years old and has arthritis. He had moderate hip displasia and was not able to walk. I took him to an animal acupuncturist. Using laser acupuncture only, my dog is now able to walk again. This case to me is the ultimate proof acupuncture has nothing to do with the placebo effect.

As a side note, modern western veterinary medicine does not have a cure for hip displasia.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 07:48 PM
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I side with Skyfloating. BTW, the article cited does NOT say that acupunture is placebo.
If it were, it would not matter where you stick the needle or where you apply acupressure. But it does. Sometimes another point in the same meridian will work just as well, but another meridian will not. I have experienced both acupressure to work on headaches for example, and the points that work for people are very specific. They are frequently tied in with physical nerve pathways.
Acupuncture has been found to work with animals or babies who are immune to suggestion or placebo.

Who said it was not your own power that works for healing when you receive this kind of treatment? Eastern practitioners will say it is your own Qi that will heal you, the acupoints will only stimulate it into action.
It is also your free will that will engage you in a treatment or not.

It is another point though whether all results are staying. If it ties to a deep problem in the patient, they will either experience the problem and resolve it, or the symptoms will recur and the same treatment is needed again. In that case, maybe therapies of various sorts can work. Again a point of own power. (I am a therapist and I experience patients healing all the time - if their unconscious wants them to do so.)



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 07:51 PM
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Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa

Originally posted by Skyfloating
The results of Acupuncture far surpass mere "relief". Ive seen it cure just about anything. Anyone who's done a few sessions can feel the tingling and energy all over the body and even in the bodies surroundings.


Well, none of these studies seemed to indicate any sort of "cure" other than pain relief. I'm afraid I can't use anecdotes when practicing evidence-based medicine, so I can't offer acupuncture to a patient ebcause "some guy one time said he saw it cure X disease".



Yes there is.


I've yet to see, hear, feel, taste, or hear any such energy, or even evidence of such energy.


[edit on 5/13/2010 by VneZonyDostupa]


Start meditating, believe, and you will be able to feel it.

Trust me, it exists!



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 07:55 PM
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reply to post by Blaine91555
 

China has never adopted Western medicine wholesale. Simply because there was never enough money to supply Western medicine for the entire population. Western medicine is applied in life-threatening cases routinely, at which it excels. Chinese medicine excels at prevention and curing chronic conditions though. The Chinese - I know this from people who spent a longer time there and speak Chinese - are encouraged to go to traditional herbal healers, do Qigong and T'ai Chi, and to go to acupunturists. In certain cases they choose Western treatments.
Just because we do not know how exactly acupuncture works, we should not abandon it. If anything, the article aroused my interest in acupunture, even though the traditional explanations may in time need adjustment to modern scientific thought, when it develops models complex enough to explain the effects.
In a way, this is also how homeopathy works. We do not know how exactly, by materialist standards, yet it has been proven time and again to work - even on animals and babies.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by GTORick
As a side note, modern western veterinary medicine does not have a cure for hip displasia.


We used to use bees on arthritic dogs. One of the dogs would go get herself stung on purpose.

Do bees carry little packets of healing energy? Or is it just a chemical effect?

Well, you can sure spot chemicals there, but no one's demonstrated to me a "healing-o-meter" that measures bogons of life force.

/one bee = 10 milliBogons



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 08:14 PM
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Originally posted by Kokatsi
I side with Skyfloating. BTW, the article cited does NOT say that acupunture is placebo.
If it were, it would not matter where you stick the needle or where you apply acupressure. But it does.


In clinical trials, sham acupuncture where a faux acupuncturist just sticks needles in random places often works as well as 'real' acupuncture. That's sort of an issue for me, as you state.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 08:37 PM
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I've always had the opinion that the placebo effect doesn't get the respect it deserves. The ability to reduce and even remove the sensation of pain from oneself by means of belief only is a phenomenum that should respected and admired.

[edit on 13-5-2010 by TheIrvy]



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 08:46 PM
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Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by GTORick
As a side note, modern western veterinary medicine does not have a cure for hip displasia.


We used to use bees on arthritic dogs. One of the dogs would go get herself stung on purpose.

Do bees carry little packets of healing energy? Or is it just a chemical effect?

Well, you can sure spot chemicals there, but no one's demonstrated to me a "healing-o-meter" that measures bogons of life force.

/one bee = 10 milliBogons


Bees stings contain venom. It is not a good comparison to acupuncture which does not inject medicine of any kind.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 09:06 PM
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reply to post by VneZonyDostupa
 


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

That goes for the technology of the human body as well. Just because modern medicine has no way of measuring or describing it, dosen't mean it dosen't exist.

If your in the Boston area, your first reiki treatment is on me.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 09:14 PM
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Originally posted by bringthelight
reply to post by VneZonyDostupa
 


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

That goes for the technology of the human body as well. Just because modern medicine has no way of measuring or describing it, dosen't mean it dosen't exist.


I wouldn't go that far. Even sufficiently advanced technology or obscured biological processes have precursors we can draw upon to formulate rough hypotheses. Very few technological and biological discoveries are made de novo.



If your in the Boston area, your first reiki treatment is on me.


If I get the position I want in the next year, I may take you up on that. Boson is a lovely city, and I'm entirely too jealous of you for being able to live there



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