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Possible Cause of Relief from Acupuncture Found

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posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
[ What IS upsetting (at least in a minor, trivial sense) is when people degrade human nature and replace it with an external force. Why can't humans just have an innate strength of will and ability to recover? Does it HAVE to ve some sort of magical energy? It just seems so droll, and it takes events out of our hands.


This is a misunderstanding of the chi-concept, as Chi (or Prana in Hinduism) is summoned by human strength and will.



Yes, summoned, as in an external force. I was referring to humans having an innate, intrinsic ability to heal. Why do we have to rely on outside influence just to live our lives? Humans are increbily capably. We don't need magic.




posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
reply to post by getreadyalready
 


The placebo effect is very real and not mystical whatsoever. As another poster mentioned, it's all about expectation. Just because a patient feels better after a placebo treatment doesn't mean the ARE better. It could simply be a neurochemical release. This doesn't shrink tumors, kill viruses, or anything of the sort. It simply relieves symptoms by overriding pain/discomfort with a wave of typically dopaminergic activation.


Mine wasn't simply a "feeling" or a "relief." Mine was new, pink, tangible skin! And 15 years later it is still thick brown skin! My vascular surgeon was as excited as I was. And, lets not forget, I did not "expect" this to work. This was an assignment from a College Course, and I only agreed to it because it was free, and it sounded good in the essay.

I am very familiar with the dopaminergic activation from my experience in running marathons. The "runner's high" is a type of addiction to dopamine the body releases to counteract pain during exercise. People develop a type of addiction (albeit very weak, and more like a habit than an addiction) to the good feeling they get from exercise. Dopamine does not build skin though!



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by hippomchippo
 





Mystical energy or a placebo effect, Hm....
I'll go with the latter.


Fair enough. Now define placebo effect?

Something like your body healing itself from the inside out by the mere suggestion that a fake pill is going to provide some relief. Is that not mystical energy? Without mystical energy, could there be a placebo effect at all?


Call it mystical energy all you want, I'll call it the power of the human mind.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready

How can the mere "expectation" of healing actually cause a physical manifestation? I can expect to win the lottery tomorrow, but it probably won't happen. I have believed 100% for certain that the next card would be a spade and but 100's of dollars on it and been wrong!


There is a difference between expectation and unrealistic expectation.



The placebo effect is real. We agree on that. But if it is real, then it has an explanation. If it has an explanation, and the explanation is not the medicine itself, then what is the biological explanation. A "suggestion" or an "expectation" is capable of creating a chemical and biological response within the body that "heals" whatever is intended. How is that "not mystical at all?" If we could understand it better, there would never be a reason for medicines. We could all fix ourselves with placebos!


Biological processes with unknown qualities do not automatically qualify as something "mystical". There are medicines that produce tangible effects that clearly state in their literature that the exact process of how it works is unknown. Nobody claims it is "mystical".

[edit on 13-5-2010 by traditionaldrummer]



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:13 PM
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How can the mere "expectation" of healing actually cause a physical manifestation? I can expect to win the lottery tomorrow, but it probably won't happen. I have believed 100% for certain that the next card would be a spade and but 100's of dollars on it and been wrong!

The placebo effect is real. We agree on that. But if it is real, then it has an explanation. If it has an explanation, and the explanation is not the medicine itself, then what is the biological explanation. A "suggestion" or an "expectation" is capable of creating a chemical and biological response within the body that "heals" whatever is intended. How is that "not mystical at all?" If we could understand it better, there would never be a reason for medicines. We could all fix ourselves with placebos!


I explained this a bit above, but I'll go into mroe detail here. The best research to date shows that when someone is told they are being given drug X, despite really being given a placebo, the "reward center" of the brain triggers dopamine and opiod release, which creates a feeling of happiness, a relief from some pain, and other effects. It can also cause a mild sort of hallucination, which is why alcohol placebos can cause pseudo-intoxication. While this seems wonderful, the problem is that these feelings of relief are all mental. The placebo doesn't actually treat the root cause, unless the problem is psychological. If you have a painful bowel cancer and receive a placebo that relieves your pain, that is all it is doing: relieving your pain. The cancer continues to grow and develop, regardless of how you feel.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
Yes, summoned, as in an external force. I was referring to humans having an innate, intrinsic ability to heal. Why do we have to rely on outside influence just to live our lives? Humans are increbily capably. We don't need magic.


Every human has an innate, instrinsic ability to heal - this life-energy is his own energy. No magic or outside influence involved.

You are mistaking acupuncture and asian teachings about Chi with mumbo-jumbo magic. You cant generalize and put it all into one basket. There are kooks and then there are time-honoured systems of healing.

I wont even start with how much western medicine borrowed from the east.

Acupuncture is NOT the same thing as, say, casting spells.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:16 PM
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reply to post by getreadyalready
 


I think we're having a miscommunication. "Expectation" isn't the same as expecting something. It's a type of psychological conditioning. Even though you hadn't "expected" the treatment to work, things as simple as the color/scent of the medicine, the attitude of both you and the physician, and the atmosphere of the clinic can modulate expectation. In the case of skin healing, that can be something as simple as a depressed inflammatory response. This is a known placebo effect of dopamine and serotonin, and can play a role in scar reduction.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating

Every human has an innate, instrinsic ability to heal - this life-energy is his own energy. No magic or outside influence involved.

You are mistaking acupuncture and asian teachings about Chi with mumbo-jumbo magic. You cant generalize and put it all into one basket. There are kooks and then there are time-honoured systems of healing.

I wont even start with how much western medicine borrowed from the east.

Acupuncture is NOT the same thing as, say, casting spells.


If you ascribe the effects of acupuncture to an unknown mystical energy, rather than the very real and reproducible biochemical effects of inflammation, then yes, this is the same thing as casting spells.

And you're right, we've borrowed a great deal of thigns from eastern medicine. Except we've found the actual reason they work, rather than sticking with their proposed mechanisms of action, i.e. spirits, energy, magic, the elements. There is a big difference between adapting a therapy and voodoo.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:20 PM
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This energy, has nothing mystical whatsoever about it. It is and was a part of our body functions, by calling it "mystical" you move it into the "fringe" direction, were it shouldnt belong



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:21 PM
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mysterious: having an import not apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence; beyond ordinary understanding;

mysticism - obscure or irrational thought

Relating to mystics or mysticism; Having a spiritual significance that transcends human understanding;


We are having an argument of semantics here. If we don't fully understand something then by definition it is "mystical."

I am not arguing that some magical power or alien entity is curing people. I am simply stating....and you are all agreeing....that people are healed in irrational ways that are outside of mainstream medicine.

Faith Healers have a placebo effect. PLacebos have the effect. Acupuncture and Chiropractice have healing effects. Massage has healing effects. Clean diets, healthy living, and clear consciences have healing effect.

There is a girl right now, that works for me that is having trouble getting well from a car wreck. Her MD (family practitioner) actually "prescribed" a clear water diet, massage, and a 21 day regimen of no lying, no sex, no alcohol, no drugs, no medicines, etc.! This is an MD, and he thinks her problems are from an unhealthy lifestyle and psychological stress from the accident.

Maybe it isn't mystical to you, but if you can't give a firm and definitive explanation for it, then it is indeed mystical, at least for now!



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready

mysterious: having an import not apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence; beyond ordinary understanding;

mysticism - obscure or irrational thought

Relating to mystics or mysticism; Having a spiritual significance that transcends human understanding;


We are having an argument of semantics here. If we don't fully understand something then by definition it is "mystical."

I am not arguing that some magical power or alien entity is curing people. I am simply stating....and you are all agreeing....that people are healed in irrational ways that are outside of mainstream medicine.

Faith Healers have a placebo effect. PLacebos have the effect. Acupuncture and Chiropractice have healing effects. Massage has healing effects. Clean diets, healthy living, and clear consciences have healing effect.

There is a girl right now, that works for me that is having trouble getting well from a car wreck. Her MD (family practitioner) actually "prescribed" a clear water diet, massage, and a 21 day regimen of no lying, no sex, no alcohol, no drugs, no medicines, etc.! This is an MD, and he thinks her problems are from an unhealthy lifestyle and psychological stress from the accident.

Maybe it isn't mystical to you, but if you can't give a firm and definitive explanation for it, then it is indeed mystical, at least for now!

Do you really think people are using mystical in this thread to refer to simply the unknown? I'm almost positive they're refering to the supernatural "chi" of the east.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready

Something like your body healing itself from the inside out by the mere suggestion that a fake pill is going to provide some relief. Is that not mystical energy? Without mystical energy, could there be a placebo effect at all?



Absolutely. Any time your body heals itself, it does so by using biochemical repair techniques.

Mystical energy requires some sort of proof. And by energy, I mean the physics definition, not the new age "vibrations" "frequencies" "chakra" sort of "energy" which doesn't really have a physics counterpart, other than the misappropriation of the term.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:33 PM
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reply to post by hippomchippo
 


I think you may be correct. I apologize, because I was using it in that sense. I was not trying to imply any paranormal aspect. I was actually agreeing with the assessment that this energy comes from within our own body and is biological in nature. I also agree with Skyfloating that this phenomenon is not paranormal at all in Eastern medicine. It is considered a very normal and biological aspect of life. It is a shame when a word or two gets in the way of communication?

Chi or Lifeforce or Electrochemistry or Electromagnetic waves or Will? They are all basic and incomplete definitions for something that science can now observe, and something that has existed since the beginning of time, and something that is obviously very powerful within the human body for development and healing and physical perseverance.

[edit on 13-5-2010 by getreadyalready]



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:33 PM
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Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
There is a big difference between adapting a therapy and voodoo.


Westerners tend to have the idea that ALL medicine other than its own science-based medicine is essentially the same. But it only looks the same to someone unfamiliar with the various disciplines. Comparing magic and voodoo to acupuncture is about as wrong as an easterner comparing psychotherapy to surgerey.

Your ideas about life-energy being about giving up self-determination over to outside influences is wrong too.

You are certainly right about inflammation occuring and the effects of that. But that does not explain the energy-phenomena occuring during sessions.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:36 PM
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Don't want anybody to think I am skipping out on this thread. This is a great discussion and topic, and one near and dear to me obviously. I have to leave though before I wind up divorced.


I will check back in the morning and see where this discussion went!



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
Yes, summoned, as in an external force. I was referring to humans having an innate, intrinsic ability to heal. Why do we have to rely on outside influence just to live our lives? Humans are increbily capably. We don't need magic.


Every human has an innate, instrinsic ability to heal - this life-energy is his own energy. No magic or outside influence involved.


There IS no such thing as "life energy", other than what you get from glucolysis, Krebs cycle and oxidative phosphorylation.

The ability to heal is evolution's way of designing in a repair faculty. If a complex organism died immediately upon incurring any sort of damage at all, and was never able to repair itself, it wouldn't last long as a species. I'm quite sure mammals have a latent and now possibly incomplete ability to repair themselves to a greater extent than they do, but it's been turned off for some reason. Likely because it permits the growth of cancer, but it might have just been one of those oddball spontaneous losses, like the loss of L-gulonolactone in humans.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by Bedlam
There IS no such thing as "life energy",


Only in the eyes of a group of hardcore-materialists. According to almost every culture, religion and tradition, there is. And unfamiliarity with that energy is the #1 cause of all problems.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready

Chi or Lifeforce or Electrochemistry or Electromagnetic waves or Will? They are all basic and incomplete definitions for something that science can now observe, and something that has existed since the beginning of time, and something that is obviously very powerful within the human body for development and healing and physical perseverance.



Electromagnetic waves are certainly energy, and electrochemistry involves energy, and these can be reliably demonstrated, proven to exist, and at least their basic natures explained.

"Lifeforce" and "chi" seem to be like homunculi - one of those things that aren't really needed. Certainly you don't need it to explain how cells produce energy (physics), which we understand to some degree.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
There is a big difference between adapting a therapy and voodoo.


Westerners tend to have the idea that ALL medicine other than its own science-based medicine is essentially the same. But it only looks the same to someone unfamiliar with the various disciplines. Comparing magic and voodoo to acupuncture is about as wrong as an easterner comparing psychotherapy to surgerey


The only difference being that psychotherapy and surgery are both proven sciences withing the field of medicine. Acupuncture is not the same as magic, and I've never implied it was. What I was calling "magic" was the irrational explanation of acupuncture's mechanism of action. Why do you prefer to ignore the repeatable, studied biological explanation of acupuncture and cling to your baseless explanation? It makes no sense, unless you prefer not to live in the rational sphere of society.


Your ideas about life-energy being about giving up self-determination over to outside influences is wrong too.


I don't think my idea is wrong at all. The basis of meridians and chi, from my understanding, it that is it a spiritual energy within each person which has to be "aligned", can be "depleted" and is a general all-purpose energy in the body. This is an explanation developed when humans didn't understand biochemistry, neurotransmitters, or nerve impulses. The idea that you have some sort of energy you have to "tend to" in order to stay healthy, and which can be affected by mood, environment, weather, or just luck, is as disempowering as the christian belief that "bad things happen, but just keep praying harder". It treats humans as if we're helpless against our world.



You are certainly right about inflammation occuring and the effects of that. But that does not explain the energy-phenomena occuring during sessions.



No energy phenomena have been recorded to date regarding acupuncture.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 04:45 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Bedlam
There IS no such thing as "life energy",


Only in the eyes of a group of hardcore-materialists. According to almost every culture, religion and tradition, there is. And unfamiliarity with that energy is the #1 cause of all problems.


Nearly every culture and religion has a story about a mystical prophet who descended from the heavens, too. Popularity doesn't make the story any more truthful.



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