Possible Cause of Relief from Acupuncture Found

I thought this was an incredibly interesting article. For the past decade or so (to thhe best of my knowledge) researchers at a few medical schools in different parts of the world have been researching why, exactly, patients seem to get relief from acupuncture. It seems they may have found one big clue: reduction of inflammation. Obviously, there is no mystical energy flowing through us, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be a completely mundane, but overlooked, explanation, which a reduction in inflammation most certainly would be. I've provided the link below. If you're interested in more detail about the study, the Pubmed link is also given at the bottle of the article.

Acupuncture

The results of Acupuncture far surpass mere "relief". Ive seen it cure just about anything. Anyone who's done a few sessions can feel the tingling and energy all over the body and even in the bodies surroundings.

Obviously, there is no mystical energy flowing through us

Yes there is.

[edit on 13-5-2010 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by Skyfloating
The results of Acupuncture far surpass mere "relief". Ive seen it cure just about anything. Anyone who's done a few sessions can feel the tingling and energy all over the body and even in the bodies surroundings.

Well, none of these studies seemed to indicate any sort of "cure" other than pain relief. I'm afraid I can't use anecdotes when practicing evidence-based medicine, so I can't offer acupuncture to a patient ebcause "some guy one time said he saw it cure X disease".

Yes there is.

I've yet to see, hear, feel, taste, or hear any such energy, or even evidence of such energy.


[edit on 5/13/2010 by VneZonyDostupa]

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
I've yet to see, hear, feel, taste, or hear any such energy, or even evidence of such energy.

You need to get out more.

Catch some rays, meet people - or maybe even give Acupuncture a try.

They've been looking at meridians and energy since thousands of years with a good record of success. And whatever has a good record of reliability can be respected. Its not like we're talking about some mumbo-jumbo-crystal-gazing here.

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa

Obviously, there is no mystical energy flowing through us

It may not be mystical, but it certainly is flowing electrically and electrochemically.

After my burns and skin grafts had all healed there was still a raw spot on my right elbow. Several additional skin grafts had failed there, and I had become accustomed to living with a seeping scab on that elbow. It wasn't nearly as annoying as all the doctors that attempted to fix it. One day I interviewed an acupuncturist for an essay I was writing in college on Holistic Medicine. The guy asked me if I had any "problem areas" on my body. I showed him the elbow and he promised to fix it for free before I turned in my paper and speech. I laughed and agreed to anything that was free. He performed "surrounding the dragon" on the elbow, which entailed acupuncture and electroshock across the wound.

The seeping stopped that day. A week later the scabs were falling off, and when I turned in my paper and speech there was a thin pink skin covering the wound that had bled for the past 18 months!!

There is most certainly value in holistic medicine!!

Edit to add:

About $150,000 went into that elbow between surgeries and pressure garments and follow up visits and such. The acupuncturist fixed it for free!!

My entire burn episode (full-thickness over 25% of body) cost right at a $1 million.

[edit on 13-5-2010 by getreadyalready]

reply to post by Skyfloating


You're confusing correlation and causation. Yes, I know they've studied "meridians" for some time. What medical science is now finding, though, is that the pain relief has nothing to do with extrinsic, magical energy sources but instead with intrinsic biochemical pathways related to stress and inflammation. Which do you think is more likely, that there's a stream of magical, invisible energy in us that modulates every aspect of your being (which can't be proven or verified in any way), or that the innate immunologic mechanisms of the body can be manipulated (which CAN and HAS been proven and verified)?

You know, they also studied the "humours" and spontaneous generation for thousands of years with seemingly good results (that is, until they were shown the difference between correlation and causation). Do you bury garbage in your yard to make rats? That belief has been around about as long as meridians.

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


Before we go on: Have you actually been through acupuncture or examined its track record in live settings or are you just talking from a hypothetical standpoint without any basis in experience or expertise?

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


Electrochemical and hardly understood is basically the same thing as mystical and magical.

Electrochemistry inside the heart defies all modern scientific explanation. There is a Masonic Research Facility that has pioneered a number of treatments of heart ailments by looking at minute electrochemical processes that occur on a cellular level in heart tissue alone, and nowhere else in the body.

There is much that we don't understand.

Try interclasping your fingers turning them inside out and then moving a particular finger? It takes focus and concentration. WHY? If a nerve ending extended directly from your brain to your finger tip, you would not need geospatial awareness to move it. If you put your hands out in front of you and move one finger, the movement is instantaneous and takes no concentration. The geospatial aspect of our nerve endings is being studied and is not understood at all. The studies began with amputees, but they have gone much further.

There are currently computers that can read electromagnetic wave patterns from the brain and generate shapes and colors that a person focuses on in their mind. Would you not consider that mystical or magical? The next generation of prosthetics will operate off this mystical power. Fully functioning hands and feet that do not need to be tied into the central nervous system! Seems magical to me!

Originally posted by Skyfloating
The results of Acupuncture far surpass mere "relief". Ive seen it cure just about anything. Anyone who's done a few sessions can feel the tingling and energy all over the body and even in the bodies surroundings.

Obviously, there is no mystical energy flowing through us

Yes there is.

[edit on 13-5-2010 by Skyfloating]

Mystical energy or a placebo effect, Hm....
I'll go with the latter.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I've been involved in an acupuncture demonstration as the "willing assistant" and our hospital offers acupuncture on a monthly basis. I've no doubt that it's beneficial, I just don't believe in fairy tales.

reply to post by getreadyalready


"Geospatial" innervation (the actual word is proprioception) is pretty well understood. I do agree with you, though, that electrochemical physiology is still a bit of a blackbox on a few minor (and a couple of major) issues. However, ascribing the electrical input/ouput system of our brain and body to a "mystial" or "paranormal" source is simply illogical, at least to me. If it originates in our body, is produced by our cells, and has a chemical or proteinaceous basis, it is not mystical. It is biological.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Before we go on: Have you actually been through acupuncture or examined its track record in live settings or are you just talking from a hypothetical standpoint without any basis in experience or expertise?

I have had acupuncture for a broken bone, although it was of the electro-stimulated variety, and I had positive results. However, there were other factors that may have contributed to my positive results, up to and including a placebo effect, and possibly the reduction in inflammation implied in the OP.

Science, however, cannot detect "chi" or any other mystical life force alleged to be manipulated by acupuncture and acupuncture results and techniques are inconsistent.

reply to post by hippomchippo

Mystical energy or a placebo effect, Hm....
I'll go with the latter.

Fair enough. Now define placebo effect?

Something like your body healing itself from the inside out by the mere suggestion that a fake pill is going to provide some relief. Is that not mystical energy? Without mystical energy, could there be a placebo effect at all?

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Without mystical energy, could there be a placebo effect at all?

Yes there could be.
It's called "expectation", and this is hardly mystical at all.

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


You use words such as "magical", "mystical", "fairy tales" - but the asian concept of "chi" considers life-energy something normal, not paranormal.

I understand that some struggle with concepts unfamiliar and not native to their schooling. I apologize should the idea of life-energy have upset you.

Good Luck with your Thread

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


I agree with you that it is biological in nature, but that is just semantics.

Until we have a firm understanding and definitive studies, processes, and answers, then it is still mystical or magical to a lamen.

I don't believe there is any magic involved at all, but I don't see the point in discounting the effect just because we don't yet have a name for something that has been around and effectively manipulated for millenia and is only now becoming barely understood even with modern detection equipment and techniques.

reply to post by getreadyalready


The placebo effect is very real and not mystical whatsoever. As another poster mentioned, it's all about expectation. Just because a patient feels better after a placebo treatment doesn't mean the ARE better. It could simply be a neurochemical release. This doesn't shrink tumors, kill viruses, or anything of the sort. It simply relieves symptoms by overriding pain/discomfort with a wave of typically dopaminergic activation.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by VneZonyDostupa

 

You use words such as "magical", "mystical", "fairy tales" - but the asian concept of "chi" considers life-energy something normal, not paranormal.

I understand that some struggle with concepts unfamiliar and not native to their schooling. I apologize should the idea of life-energy have upset you.

Good Luck with your Thread

It's not upsetting, and I don't mind the condescending tone of your post, either. What IS upsetting (at least in a minor, trivial sense) is when people degrade human nature and replace it with an external force. Why can't humans just have an innate strength of will and ability to recover? Does it HAVE to ve some sort of magical energy? It just seems so droll, and it takes events out of our hands.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Without mystical energy, could there be a placebo effect at all?

Yes there could be.
It's called "expectation", and this is hardly mystical at all.

How can the mere "expectation" of healing actually cause a physical manifestation? I can expect to win the lottery tomorrow, but it probably won't happen. I have believed 100% for certain that the next card would be a spade and bet 100's of dollars on it and been wrong!

The placebo effect is real. We agree on that. But if it is real, then it has an explanation. If it has an explanation, and the explanation is not the medicine itself, then what is the biological explanation. A "suggestion" or an "expectation" is capable of creating a chemical and biological response within the body that "heals" whatever is intended. How is that "not mystical at all?" If we could understand it better, there would never be a reason for medicines. We could all fix ourselves with placebos!

[edit on 13-5-2010 by getreadyalready]

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
[ What IS upsetting (at least in a minor, trivial sense) is when people degrade human nature and replace it with an external force. Why can't humans just have an innate strength of will and ability to recover? Does it HAVE to ve some sort of magical energy? It just seems so droll, and it takes events out of our hands.

This is a misunderstanding of the chi-concept, as Chi (or Prana in Hinduism) is summoned by human strength and will.