Freed Somali pirates 'probably died' - Russian source

reply to post by SmokeJaguar67


Yes I'm not crazy about the "looters will be shot" rule either which seems like an execution that bypasses courts etc, but looting in times of crises and piracy on the high seas aren't the same as a hungry person stealing a loaf of bread.

So which would be worse, killing these guys, or setting them free to do it again? The latter seems like an even bigger crime to me, though I'm not crazy about murdering them either. Too bad they couldn't be prosecuted.

Interesting to see so many posters applaud and congratulate the use of brute force. Forget about the rule of law--if someone gets in your way or is operating contrary to your own interests, just kill them: you'll be certain to receive the admiration and adulation of those who feel that legal recourse is "spineless."

Originally posted by cagliostro
Interesting to see so many posters applaud and congratulate the use of brute force. Forget about the rule of law--if someone gets in your way or is operating contrary to your own interests, just kill them: you'll be certain to receive the admiration and adulation of those who feel that legal recourse is "spineless."

What would you have liked? An International trial? With whom residing on the bench? Want to hold court in Africa? More than likely the jury would be killed before even entering the court house.

You are also completely wrong in your initial statement:

if someone gets in your way or is operating contrary to your own interests,

They didn't "get in the way".

They hijacked a ship owned by another country, threatened the crew, and try to make off with a multi-million dollar heist. A little different picture than you try to paint.

Do you think that it is OK to shoot someone in order to save yourself from being shot? The Russian government was trying to rescue their crew from being held captive, held for ransom, and if not paid, killed.

This already is a life and death situation. These were not boys in a rubber boat with fishing rods that stumbled upon a tanker. There are armed pirates, flush with grenade launchers, not interested in human life -- only in a big payday.

Do you think holding people for ransom is OK?
Do you think the British citizen murdered last month due to an unpaid ransom is OK?
Do you not think that the crews being held are in essence prisoners of war?
Do you not think our governments should be responsible for protecting their citizens above everything else?

One thing's for sure: Just like they rarely go after American ships because of our actions many months ago, it's unlikely Russian ships will be heavily targeted either.

reply to post by SmokeJaguar67


Seems to me that these modern day pirates would have learned the lesson of what comes from pirating on the high seas. Pirates were chased all over the seas and oceans of the world to bring them to justice and to teach lessons to others who would follow in their foot steps. True that justice was harsh and swift. Eventually would be pirates learned that the civilized world would not stand for their actions any longer. If the somalis or pirates of any nationality have forgotten these lessons then let's resume them. This punishment is rather fitting, I think its safe to say, that crews of pirated ships usually don't wind up in a raft at all, they wind up with a bullet in the head and being eaten by fish in davy jones locker...

well if blackwater or xe whatever they go by now was in the secruity business why don't they buy 4 patrol boats and start running escort thru that area for a nominal fee. way it would work you would have one or 2 patrol boats follow you out and have a two or 3 guys on board your ship at night doing patrols with a k9 or two they try climbing aboard you fight them off then patrol boat comes up and sinks them

reply to post by SmokeJaguar67


Listen, the pirates had made it that far out to sea in order to attack the freighter. How had they gotten there? Hmm? These pirates rarely travel alone. Losing contact after an hour is unlikely unless the boat was sunk or they were rescued. My bet is that they were met by other pirates and rescued. Who knows really? I say they were lucky they were given a boat to be in.
As an X sailor myself.I know that having a survival raft greatly increases your chance of getting out of a situation like this, even 300 NM out at sea. Sailors the world over can attest to the stories of sailors found after many weeks at sea never mind just an hour.

hrmm... somehow I don't think those pirates made it to the raft.
the russians probably made them walk the plank.

Kudos to the Russians.

They couldn't prosecute them so they gave them back to the sea.

I wonder if the inflatable boat was leaking?

Wake up people, they are in on it with the "pirates"...

We created pirates, terrorists, the like.

"You're free to go, here have an inflatable raft. Good luck in the open ocean!"



Wow, the Russians certainly did make an example out of these guys. The message: Don't F#^% with mother Russia.

Ballsy. I like it.

[edit on 12-5-2010 by DaMod]

Originally posted by grey580
hrmm... somehow I don't think those pirates made it to the raft.
the russians probably made them walk the plank.

Yeah! Why waste a good raft?

In reality, if the United States did the same thing, there would be "hangings" and "witchhunts." The real question is, why couldn't these pirates be prosecuted after they'd been detained?

Sounds like an excuse to "carry out justice" if you know what I mean.

reply to post by grey580


Putting them on a raft is a much bigger statement imo. They cometh from the sea and the sea taketh them away.

Originally posted by Grey Magic
They were placed on a raft 300 miles off the coast.

A true pirate can navigate with the sun and stars. Aaarrrrr!

I agree with this guy. If these pirates have the balls and ability to climb onto a Russian owned ship then they can probably figure out how to drift back to their own home shore.

Chances are they probably are dead, or they could've even been picked up by their command ship. What matters is that they screwed with Russia and Russia put them in their place like usual.

Whatever the Russians did to the pirates is fully justified. They could have shot all of the pirates on sight, and still would be justified. The Somali pirates to do not operate within the scope of any laws or any jurisdictions. They kidnap and kill as they please, without any concern for law, which might as well not exist in Somalia. They got what was coming to them. The most effective way to deal with the threat they pose to law abiding merchant ships and their crews, is to eliminate them if they try to attack. Also any convention about treatment of prisoners or right to trial is nonwithstanding given the absence of any jurisdiction.


How else do you expect them to be brought to justice? Someone has to pay for the court proceedings, and for the jail cell and the food. And where are they going to go after they are released without passport? Who wants this scum to stay in their country?

What is another alternative? Let them go, so they will inevitably carry out another attack and endanger lives of ship crews?


Is killing the pirates fair? Well fairness to the pirates isn't an issue here - what is an issue is the safety of merchant ships, their cargo, and their crews. If anyone needs to be concerned about fairness or justice for the pirates - it should be Somalia. All other nations only need to be concerned for their own citizens' and ships' safety without violating any laws. And there are no laws against killing lawless pirates in international waters.

Originally posted by Nexus
Yeh, your army just targets innocent civilians and gets away with it, lets give them more freedom to commit war crimes.

I'm all for letting them "commit war crimes". Hell, they could carpet bomb our targets for all I care. As long as its not America's troops that die.

But hey, your country should know a lot about that also, right?

India, Ireland, and Kenya say hello.

I wanted to be a Pirate when I grew up. My teacher said I was being silly.

But I have pirated movies as proof if you can dream it, you can be it.

Originally posted by pteridine reply to post by SmokeJaguar67

 

Smoke, The Russians have a pragmatic take on crimes against them and often teach by example.

I agree with you there as I recall the Moscow theatre hostage crisis in 2002 where the hostage takers were all buried after being sown into pig skin bags. The tactic worked in that there were no more such crimes to take place of such a nature but hatred has grown into a beast that stalks the borders of Russia with even greater ferocity.

Originally posted by pteridine This will help the pirates learn that attacking ships whose names are painted in the Cyrillic alphabet is especually dangerous. The boat the pirates were cast adrift on was probably unseaworthy.

I think the boat the pirates were cast off in was probably not only unseaworthy but it was probably also aided in its way with a little target practice too but this is just a suspicion. By the time the bodies wash up on shore barring becoming a food source to tropical oceanic fauna then they will have been in the water so long that any life ending traumatic injuries caused by high calibre weaponry will be unrecognizable as flesh turns to mush and slides off the bone, camouflaging all wounds of murder.

I am not siding with these pirates on any level all I am saying is that I find it reprehensible on every level that a military force can simply and matter of factly think it is ok to just murder a bunch of people because they cannot prosecute them. Such actions as far as I can tell indicate that there is only a passing nod to the rule of international maritime law. This law will be something to fall back on when it suits and when it does not then just dismember with cannon fire because they are only pirates and no one will care? I know it is the Russians and all that and I know they are very “Romulan” in their thinking but still; this is a shocking act even for them.

Originally posted by pteridine Silly pirates, sailing their boat into automatic cannon fire so far from shore. As to repercussions, if the pirates murder crews then that will cause future crews to be armed to fight for their lives, making piracy more difficult.

If that is what they did then yes they did not exactly take care of their own lives or adhere to the natural laws that kick in when life is in danger and self preservation comes to the fore. Future crews armed to the teeth though? That just means more carnage but now instead of carnage on land it is in the sea too? I think that after 911 something died and everything hardened – another thing to die on that day was global innocence. Am I naive to think we should not be going down this road in arming crews and escalating carnage out into the sea? Next we will be calling the conflict we find out there a new front in the war on terror?

We are already beset with new fronts and in killing and maiming until we see it as “those dirty dogs got what they deserved” one day the same could be said of us when we also find our backs against the wall and someone aims an automatic weapon at us and takes up the second pressure on the trigger.

It seems anything is possible in these times even one day to find a wall behind us.

Originally posted by pteridine This is about money, not murders. Killing crews would also remove the hostage protection that the pirates now have from shock troops assaulting the stronghold or the prize ship.

Agreed this is always about money and even warfare I would think is all about money even if seen in the abstract and long term it is all carefully mapped out and the only thing that sometimes usurps a carefully laid plan is the capacity of an enemy to be unpredictable. It is customary for the outgunned and outnumbered to react in a theatre of war by doing something that was thought a distant possibility but never thought would become a reality until it is right there in their face laying waste to their troops and plans. I think they call it an insurgency and guerrilla warfare always seems to take the overly confident by surprise

Originally posted by pteridine One convenient solution is to allow the firefights to continue until there is no one left to shoot back or make the first shots with serious naval guns. I'd bet our Russian friends have thought of these, too. Life is harsh for pirates and cattle rustlers.

The problem is that big money seems to require a blood sacrifice and the people that get sacrificed all too often are always the poor and the disenfranchised. When you throw in the uneducated then it seems obvious that the only thing that can happen as big business gets richer is that more and more people bleed and hatred and alienation grow.

I do not think that we should just sell these factions weapons, give them military advice and training and then send them on their way and I do not think we should just cast them aside as scum either. We should engage them with a goal to helping them in the short term with the overall goals being a long terms free market where the disenfranchised and discarded can have a real chance to contribute to the international economy.

No heavy handed troops on the ground spanking all left right and center but to gain a workable trust and merge efforts to rebuild infrastructure, respect customs and religion and showing the disenfranchised some real advantages that comes when high level aid comes from outside others in efforts to help the ravaged help themselves.

I am not fan of free markets and big business and the soul crunching love of money I must say as along with organised religion money has caused much grief but in the real world we need to see things in categories of lesser and greater evils. Personally I think that it is better to instruct the alienated and ravaged peoples such things and include these people in this rather than slaughter them out of hand and then laugh, shrug and shout “good riddance” in western online forums.

If we try and help them rebuild their country (not boots on the ground) then are we also not making an effort to help ourselves too because a rebuilt and included country would deal with their indigenous pirates much more effectively than hunting them down and butchering them as they are found by cynical warship commanders.

What are we going to do otherwise just keep machine gunning them until they have had enough? It is not going to happen, they will adapt, harden their hearts and hit back in ever merciless and blood thirsty ways that we have no anticipated yet – escalation, death, misery – it never ends but we always choose to forget that and think that this time it will end.

Shock and awe tactics do not work!

Originally posted by maloy
And there are no laws against killing lawless pirates in international waters.

Yes there is, there are tons of laws and conventions covering international waters and killing unarmed prisoners is not legal, that's just the way it is. That's probably why they said "we put them in a boat, I dunno".

The Russians were wrong to do this, but that's okay, they'll pay the price the next time a Russian ship is boarded and the pirates kill everyone on board.

I'll shed no tears for them.

The only good pirate.....

I have no issue with Russia's "solution". That being said, I think from now on, we capture the pirates and turn them over to the Islamic rebels in Somalia. They have issued a fatwa against the pirates and have driven them damn near all the way into Ethiopia. The Russian's treatment of pirates is like handling with kit gloves, compared to what the rebels do to them.