Why the HELL are you NOT a Libertarian?, page 3

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
reply to post by tothetenthpower

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I think it's more about degree. I've heard it said that Libertarianism is "Reasoned Anarchy", which I tend to agree with in some respects, so the case can be made.

Normally, I find the more Libertarian one is, the less sane they are, and being Libertarian it should say something. When one gets to the point in their thinking that we should divide the standing military up among the States, have private police and fire dept, and privatize everything down to the last tack, their credibility and appraisal of the world has effectively been shot.

I don't find the current term "Libertarian" to be terribly close to "Pure Libertarianism". I understand you are speaking in abstract definitions and in that respect you are somewhat correct.

Peace
KJ

Thank you.

In a sense the word Libertarian is very very vague. There are so many different sects of that word and different ideologies to subscribe to that's it's almost impossible to just blanket statement all Libertarianism as one thing or another.

~Keeper

reply to post by airspoon

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Hey, I was wondering awhile back, what does it take to create a bank. How does one go about getting a window at the Fed to create fiat currency from debt?

For every dollar put in my bank I can create 9 more. SWEET. I think everyone over the age of 18 should form a bank and apply for a window at the fed.

Talk about an intriguing idea. We could all put our own fiat currency in our bank and make loans to ourselves for 9 times what we have in our own bank. Just imagine the possibilities.

reply to post by XigXag

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Well, it is better to be delusional than a slave to corporations and governments behind them.

reply to post by Janky Red

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If you start calling for no more taxes(of any kind) on individuals, I will become VERY happy.

Government does not need the taxes of individuals to exist. They only do this to perpetuate slavery and control.

Look into the CAFR folks. The income of our government is NOT derived from income taxes and the like. It is derived from tarriffs and other forms of income MOSTLY.

So ask yourself, why is there 1000's of types of taxes on individuals? Where does it go?

That will wake you to the reasoning behind the federal reserve and all the forms of taxation. It has nothing to do with helping anyone. It has to do with control.

Do not believe me, google Ringle video about the health care bill being about what? CONTROL.

Next up on the agenda? Carbon TAX. Cap and TAX, more control by your government.

reply to post by TarzanBeta

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I always thought a commodity based currency would be the best. Not a specific commodity, but say a conglomerate of various commodities, like say, corn, wheat, oranges, oil, coal, etc.

reply to post by Misoir

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Social Democrat, that is not a definition of your beliefs, that is a box created for you in the divide and conquer game. I quit playing games long ago. The party structure is just that, a structure of control.

Time to get out of that box.

reply to post by Arcane Demesne

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I believe the chink in the armor of the Dem/Repub snake from hell, is beginning to show.

reply to post by KrazyJethro

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Hey, I was raised around horses and other animals. I never kicked them when they died. That would be just stupid.

Yes, reasoned like the Constitution.
As for changing America as we know it, what would be wrong with that? This entity we now know is an abomination.

Well as the first commenter posted, there is a misrepresentation of our views. They equate it with Anarchy.

I have found the chink in the armor of the totalitarians. It is the revelation that control by anyone is purely there end game. Both sides of the two headed snake should not have the control. At all.

Why is the court systems beginning to become irrelevant in this day and age? It is because it is the last protection against the tyrants. Attempts to remove miranda and our very citizenship to start throwing those that lambaste our government.

Are you a citizen? A citizen of what?

I am a citizen of the Republic of Wisconsin. I am not a citizen of the corporation known as the UNITED STATES.

[edit on 5/12/2010 by endisnighe]

reply to post by tothetenthpower

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No, problem. Just trying to spread the knowledge.

People always try to equate one political party with either social freedoms or economic freedoms.

That has brought us to this point in time.

As I told another poster, government does not need our labor or our property to survive. They make plenty of money without it. They just use our money to pay off the debt that the banks created to enslave us.

Look at your own country's CAFR's. This will open your eyes.

reply to post by apacheman

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Any organized political party is just that, organized. 99% of the time, any organization gets sidetracked from their own ideals.

That is why I do not belong to any party and never will.



Thanks everyone for the comments. If I did not respond to you, it was either I agreed with you comments or the comments were concluded. Also, I was not referring to any party, I was referring to an ideal.

reply to post by endisnighe

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I think that is very wise. Commodities that we actually can use for our own well being would be very useful as a basis for currency. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's how it started... and gold was used as the currency upon which all other currencies became based because it was easily fashioned and yet didn't waste away(and I suppose it was shiny). Of course that was before we could just print money out and preserve it well...

To be honest, I believe that such a society won't be accomplished to a grand scale. There will always be people who desire power enough to screw everyone else over - atleast in this world.

I agree with everything you believe, but I know better than to believe that it would work on this earth in this present age. AT this point, it is just idealism friend.

People are just too darned greedy. It's like the Ring of Power that rules over all the rings is actually popularity. When someome attains more popularity than another, they are holding that ring of power.

Now it isn't just that the ring is corrupt, because it's not necessarily true. It's peoples' hearts that are easily corrupted by such power. And that's how people will always fall.

Most people have a hard time being happy with themselves and their life without worrying about their circumstances. Most people allow their circumstances to determine their outlook on and their actions in life.

No offense, but refer to your OP.

reply to post by ventian

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Thanks ventian.

The lesser of two evils. Gets em all the time.

To reiterate the theory behind Libertarianism.

You have every right to do anything that does not harm another.

It does not mean you cannot try and stop things that you believe are wrong, but it prevents the government from enforcing the collective will of the people. Just because you or I believe something is wrong, which there are several things I believe are wrong, does not give me the right to enforce my will-through government-upon you.

That in and of itself is tyranny. Plain and simple.

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by airspoon

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BUT, we have a fiat system now.

This is HIGHLY systemic to our problems.

This is our idiocy. This is our perception of reality.

We have dollars that actually have value because of perception.

What do we do with perception?

Quick: how much is 500 grams of gold worth!
No, don't tell me in dollars, don't tell me in random goods (calculated by going through dollars), tell me in value!
What is the worth of a ton of grain? Less or more than half a ton of grain and a mill?

Yes, my dear. Money is a token of exchange. It is only worth something if you can be sure somebody else accepts it in exchange for goods. If its 0 and 1s in a computer, pieces of paper, or coffee beans doesn't matter. 0s and 1s are just way easier to carry.

OT: I am not a libertarian because I like the Idea of people cooperating for the common good.
One example:
en.wikipedia.org...

In the 1930s, the U.S. lagged significantly behind Europe in providing electricity to rural areas due to the unwillingness of power companies to serve farmsteads.

A similiar thing happened later with cell phone coverage. US lagging way behind Europe, because a free market doesn't care about unprofitable markets.

reply to post by debunky

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Where in the Libertarian ideal, does it state that cooperation is not allowed?

Please point it out to me please.

Forced cooperation is not civilized sorry to say. It is tyranny plain and simple.

When one is charitable, one is forthright.

When one is forced to give up their labor or property for the collective, it is serfdom and slavery.

No one, in a TRUE Libertarian society, would be stopped from joining in a voluntary socialized system.

Where as in a Tyrannical Totalitarian society, anything can be forced for the greater good.

The end justifies the means so to speak.

Over population as one example would allow the government to enact such things to keep the population down.

Hmmmm, what does that sound like to you?

reply to post by Skyfloating

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Well, I am just trying to kick start the perception of reality a little quicker.

Hey, Libertarianism existed for quite a few years here in the United States of America.

Then of course the UNITED STATES Inc was created and destroyed everything.

reply to post by debunky

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That electricity and cell phone example is funny.

I always get really ticked off when some group decides I need whatever the hell it is they claim I need. I was a lot happier before the cell phones made it to my area and a lot happier without any broadband internet access in my area.

Seems every time I move far enough away from so-called "civilization" some group of jackasses is following right behind forcing their product on me.

You can say I have a choice or option to adopt their product or not but when the tax dollars subsidizing the expansion of said product are being taken from me at gun point how much choice[/] do I really have?

First it's the "electricity" then it's WalMart then it's tourists then it's welfare queens and their criminal vgrant offspring and my taxes go sky high and my quality of life drops to rock bottom.

All because some moron or group of morons thought I just had to have their bullcrap foisted upon me.

reply to post by endisnighe

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Yeah, it was different with that group of renegades that ventured into the new world hundreds of years ago - that was true Libertarian spirit, true self-determination.

You wanna give people freedom but when people get a taste of the real thing they run for the hills. Bunch of whiny, pouty-faced weaklings who are in the infancy of the Evolution of Consciousess.

reply to post by debunky

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Do you actually think government now puts up electrical lines and such?

Do you think that they did back then?

Sorry to tell you this, but I built numerous sites in several states. The government does not put in the public works components. Private land developers do. Then after they are completed, the ownership of these things are transferred to the different agencies.

Kind of need to open those eyes to reality.

As for things like roads, police, fire departments etc. These things are paid for through sales taxes.

On most of the sites we had to increase the size and scope of the roads. Do you think government paid for it? Pfffft.

Please debunky properly or not debunky at all.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Cause Libertarianism is just a nice way to say Anarchy.

Which kind of doesn't work in a real world sense.

Cause you are assuming that everybody doesn't want at some point to infringe on people's rights.

The fact is that some people just wanna see the world burn.

Now I am of "Libertarian" values, I support most of the agenda, but a full out Libertarian culture is like a Utopia, nice to think about, impossible to implement.

~Keeper

One of the longest running and freeest societies in history and the most sophisticated of its time was a libertarian/anarchy society of the Ancient Irish Celts. 1000 years of relative peace and freedom! There were others also in Iceland and elsewhere. The modern cultural meaning of anarchy as chaos is incorrect. The modern myth that we need all the trappings of government we see today is just that; a myth!

Update:

The most remarkable historical example of a society of libertarian law and courts, however, has been neglected by historians until very recently. And this was also a society where not only the courts and the law were largely libertarian, but where they operated within a purely state-less and libertarian society. This was ancient IrelandÑan Ireland which persisted in this libertarian path for roughly a thousand years until its brutal conquest by England in the seventeenth century. And, in contrast to many similarly functioning primitive tribes (such as the Ibos in West Africa, and many European tribes), preconquest Ireland was not in any sense a "primitive" society: it was a highly complex society that was, for centuries, the most advanced, most scholarly, and most civilized in all of Western Europe.

Here are some links:

www.libertarian.ie...

www.mises.org...

Most of the things attributed to government are done by society despite government. Listen to what one of our Founders Thomas Paine had to say:

mises.org...

We could learn a lot from the ancient celt society:

For a thousand years, then, ancient Celtic Ireland had no State or anything like it. As the leading authority on ancient Irish law has written:

'There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justiceÉ. There was no trace of State-administered justice.'

How then was justice secured? The basic political unit of ancient Ireland was the tuath. All 'freemen' who owned land, all professionals, and all craftsmen, were entitled to become members of a tuath. Each tuath's members formed an annual assembly which decided all common policies,

Update:

In the first place, the law itself was based on a body of ancient and immemorial custom, passed down as oral and then written tradition through a class of professional jurists called the brehons. The brehons were in no sense public, or governmental, officials; they were simply selected by parties to disputes on the basis of their reputations for wisdom, knowledge of the customary law, and the integrity of their decisions.

But what of the elected 'king'? Did he constitute a form of State ruler? Chiefly, the king functioned as a religious high priest, presiding over the worship rites of the tuath, which functioned as a voluntary religious, as well as a social and political, organization. As in pagan, pre-Christian, priesthoods, the kingly function was hereditary, this practice carrying over to Christian times. The king was elected by the tuath from within a royal kin-group (the derbfine), which carried the hereditary priestly function. Politically, however, the king had strictly limited functions: he was the military leader of the tuath, and he presided over the tuath assemblies. But he could only conduct war or peace negotiations as agent of the assemblies; and he was in no sense sovereign and had no rights of administering justice over tuath members. He could not legislate, and when he himself was party to a lawsuit, he had to submit his case to an independent judicial arbiter.

www.libertarian.ie...

[edit on 12-5-2010 by hawkiye]

[edit on 12-5-2010 by hawkiye]

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by Neo_Serf

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I agree they aren't 100% the same, but the basic core is the same.

No laws, nobody to tell you what to do, just somebody to tell you what NOT to do.

Again, kind of a paradox.

~Keeper

Uh, what?

Your understanding of a libertarian system is completely flawed... From the OP's post: "You have the RIGHT to do anything as long as you do not infringe on someone else's rights of Life, Liberty or Property. " That right there implys laws...

Please get a realistic idea of an ideology before you trash it, big thumbs down to you

reply to post by thisguyrighthere

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You know what kind of pisses me off in that regard.

Just as an example, the US government funds this NASA agency. They use our tax dollars to create these elaborate components and then WHO gets the patents for all these things that are discovered?

You got it, their cronie capitalists.

Paid for by our labor and then given to their buddies.

It is so nice being a slave to the idiocy isn't it?

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