Why the HELL are you NOT a Libertarian?

reply to post by endisnighe


I'm not a libertarian because libertarians still believe in some level of forced looting by state tyrants.



But I still like them as people.



[edit on 6-7-2010 by mnemeth1]

reply to post by mnemeth1


Well, we are the closest to true Anarchist's on the totalitarian scale. We are like cousins!

Because where I live in the UK it's not a realistic political ideology due to the huge amount of people who receive some form of government welfare. I also don't believe that the free market is infallible without government oversight.

reply to post by LeftWingLarry


Youre right, it wouldnt be feasible to open the gates of the farm and let the cows run free. They are a weak and dependant slave race. Cows have been bred to depend on their masters, and to stampede any of their fellow cows who point out that the farmer might have less than noble intentions for them. As long as the trough is full of feed they care not if they are eating the chipped remains of their fellows.

Sucks for the rest of us livestock who actually do have the desire and ability to live free.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


so lets argue. ayn said there are 3 kinds of people: attilas who would use brute force to enslave you. witchdoctors who would use your own mind against you, and traders who would offer deals one could turn down. i dont see why someone i would call a libertarian would not in truth be an anarchist. the idea that anarchists are utopian seems to me to be bassackwards. isnt it likely that there will always be sociopaths (anti-traders)? libertarians(anarchists) accept human nature as is. to expect anarchists to change human nature is asking a little much, dont you think? rather, i would suggest, the real utopians are those who believe any government based on force or religion has ever had much of a track record to impress any rational person at all. the statists are the true utopians. tell me how im wrong, bring it on!

Originally posted by Neo_Serf
reply to post by LeftWingLarry

 

Youre right, it wouldnt be feasible to open the gates of the farm and let the cows run free. They are a weak and dependant slave race. Cows have been bred to depend on their masters, and to stampede any of their fellow cows who point out that the farmer might have less than noble intentions for them. As long as the trough is full of feed they care not if they are eating the chipped remains of their fellows.

Sucks for the rest of us livestock who actually do have the desire and ability to live free.

Yes, the people of the UK are clearly enslaved.

Oh, wait. No they aren't.

reply to post by endisnighe

Keeper

I subscribe to the same beliefs you do
I'm an Independent.
the difference...I hold to a social fabric.
And that makes all the difference.

For one, the government could stay out of state affairs, and concentrate purely on foreign policy. Which it was intended.

Originally posted by tigpoppa
sounds like anarchy to me.

I am an american and we dont have this party here. I support freedom and god by voting republican. The republicans are the true patriots who are not afraid to go toe to toe against liberals who want to burn our flag in the streets like these libertarians. I cant support a group that spits on the american way of life by burning our flag or demonizing President Bush, the last true president.

Do you know how much drugs the bushes were involved with? Stop being a tool. There are no "goodguys" in this world.

Originally posted by Neo_Serf
reply to post by LeftWingLarry

 

Youre right, it wouldnt be feasible to open the gates of the farm and let the cows run free. They are a weak and dependant slave race. Cows have been bred to depend on their masters, and to stampede any of their fellow cows who point out that the farmer might have less than noble intentions for them. As long as the trough is full of feed they care not if they are eating the chipped remains of their fellows.

Sucks for the rest of us livestock who actually do have the desire and ability to live free.

Their minds are enslaved. The elite own their minds. They need to buy back their minds with...critical thinking.

I've been classified as being libertarian, but realize the possible conflict in my beliefs. While highly regarding individual liberties and rights I also realize that the more modern area has strongly seen a shift from the community and common good into the individual, which has led into a stream of negative things, ie. the spread of economic inequality. However, I suppose that we will never be able to reach the plateau of community maintained by hunter-gatherer societies, which is probably why I lean more towards libertarian ideals.

The Scale:
Nazi-Conservative-Right-Republican------------- Libertarian -Middle -------- Democrat-Left-Communism-Marxism/Anarchy

Originally posted by endisnighe
There is one tenet of Libertarianism.

You have the RIGHT to do anything as long as you do not infringe on someone else's rights of Life, Liberty or Property.

I will always be your friend and benefactor.

You have the right to your own world. You have the right to believe in what you want. You have the right to self determination.

Why the HELL are you not a Libertarian?

Because I have realized a very important secret of the universe.

I am not alone. I am not one single isolated person. Who I am is a summation of myself and everyone I know, how we interact and what everyone's conditions are. I am a member of a cohesive society. To pretend that I stand alone from my family, my neighbors, my friends, even the people I hate, is to emotionally, mentally, and ethically stunt myself as a human being; I.e., become a Libertarian.

It's one thing to say "I can do whatever I want so long as I don't infringe on someone else." It's quite another thing to actually pull this off, for the simple reason that we are not simply single cattle, each meandering around our own exclusive, fenced-off piece of pasture; we're a whole herd, and what we do inevitably affects others around us.

I am not a libertarian because I have a sense of ethics. I am not a libertarian because I will forgo personal profit to aid my fellow person. I am not a libertarian, for the most part, because I am no longer thirteen years old, and have not been for nearly two decades. I am not a libertarian, because I have learned there are only two kinds of self-professed libertarians; leftists who want to sound smarter than they actually are, and genuine sociopaths. I am not a Libertarian, because I realize that the needs of my society are more congruous with my needs as an individual than not.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Since you are a social being and claim a ethical foundation for this premise, I wonder if you can validate or invalidate the following axiom:

"No person has the moral right to *initiate* force against another."

If you agree then awesome, if not, in what specific examples do you think it is right for one human to attack another? (self defense totally excluded from the question.)

reply to post by endisnighe


Where did you go you putz face???

we miss you sort of

Because I have realized a very important secret of the universe.

So you too have validated and accepted the Non Aggression Principle?

I am not alone.

If this is your basis of your counter argument I must remind you that no one has claimed they were alone.

I am not one single isolated person.

Unless you are referring to your individuated conciousness, again, no one made this claim.

Who I am is a summation of myself and everyone I know, how we interact and what everyone's conditions are.

Who is questioning this? Freewill + enviroment is not denied by any reasonable person. (libritarians and anarchists included.)

I am a member of a cohesive society.

Social cohesion, again, is not apposed by anyone who lives in reality. Simply the *means* of cohesiveness are in question here.

To pretend that I stand alone from my family, my neighbors, my friends, even the people I hate, is to emotionally, mentally, and ethically stunt myself as a human being; I.e., become a Libertarian.

So are you saying here that since you do not stand alone from these people, you stand united with them, unconditionally? (enemies included?)

What do you mean by 'standing', anyways? Sorry to nitpick, but its your argument. By 'standing' with other humans, are you referring to out common upright position on the earth? Or do you mean you 'stand' with others by some common ideological bond? If so, what bond ties you to those who you refer to as your 'enemies?' (besides the rational 'stand' which is to oppose them.)

It's one thing to say "I can do whatever I want so long as I don't infringe on someone else."

Some would say the only thing to say. But I wonder, do you oppose this principle on rational ethical grounds, or is it just too 'impractical' in todays world?

It's quite another thing to actually pull this off, for the simple reason that we are not simply single cattle, each meandering around our own exclusive, fenced-off piece of pasture; we're a whole herd, and what we do inevitably affects others around us.

Again, no one with a brain would argue that actions do not have consequences. No one is saying that they are an island and live inside of a magical bubble where cause and effect do not exist.

And heres where I think you might misunderstand Libritarianism. (or more correctly Anarcho Capitalism) Both are logical moral codes based on the simple and valid premise that no person can *initiate* force against another and remain a *good* person. (ask yourself which of the two systems more closely adheres to this axiom.)

Libritarianism/Anarchism is actually *based* on the premise that people must live together - our argument is not against society, but instead how society is organised. We hold the position that *in order to live together peaceably*, no person who attacks another can be regarded as a moral person.

Do you hold the opposite stance?

I am not a libertarian because I have a sense of ethics.

Then you contradict yourself and thus are in error. Libritarianism/Anarchism are the only political/social philosophies that are simply a conclusion of rational ethics. You may not realize this now/yet, but all valid moral systems simply *must* begin with Non Aggression, and because of this, any systems that oppose this valid axiom are by definition unethical.

I am not a libertarian because I will forgo personal profit to aid my fellow person.

Again you misunderstand you opponents arguments. (or you are throwing up strawmen) No one is opposing *charity* in prinicple. (and if they did they wouldnt be worth listening to.) What we beef with is *involuntary* charity, otherwise known as theft and bribes.

Ill clue you in on where most of us stand in this regard. (perhaps you can become a more effective devils advocate.) We *dont care* what is done with our money after it is stolen from us. If the mafia takes 10 points off my resturant and spends it on little timmes new crutches, this does not justify the initial theft. Stealing *destroys* and concept of ethics in the first place, and thus any ethical justifacation after the fact is meaningless, as morality in this circumstance has been rendered irrelevant by the first causal link - the immoral theft of property.

I am not a libertarian, for the most part, because I am no longer thirteen years old, and have not been for nearly two decades.

Im sorry but admitting youre just an old conformist is not a valid counter argument. In fact your assertion that *age* has any factor in ethical behaviour highlights you fundamental misunderstanding of the topic. (the only exception being those who are too young to act of their own will) Being old is no excuse for unethical behaviour, and infact should be the opposite.

I am not a libertarian, because I have learned there are only two kinds of self-professed libertarians; leftists who want to sound smarter than they actually are, and genuine sociopaths.

Which category would you convieniently bundle and dismiss me into?

If one wishes to appear smarter than they are, are they undeserving of freedom, in your eyes? How about the sociopaths? Does this classifacation make them unfit to run their own lives, in your mind?

I am not a Libertarian, because I realize that the needs of my society are more congruous with my needs as an individual than not.

There are so many embedded contradictions implied by the above that to untangle each of them would require some serious time. But Ill try a couple.

Firstly you believe that the ficticious conceptual entity you call 'society' actually exists in the real world and posses its own identity. This contradicts the very first rule of logic; the law of identity. You see, this thing you submit your reason to called society (in other circumstances this would be called 'god') do infact only exist as an aggragate of individual actors generalized as an innacurate concept in your mind. In other words, under your contradictary thinking, 'society' is a living, breathing entity whos parts are irrelivant to the definition of the whole. Must like a 'forest' does not actually exist in reality (but a collection of trees in close proximity does), 'society', and the defining attributes your ascribe to it, does not actually exist in reality. What *actually* exists is individuals doin stuff. Their combined and averaged interaction is what your mind defines as 'society'. Thus your definition/identification of what society wants/needs must always *necessarily* be invalid by your very nature, which disallows your reading of everyones elses minds.

'Society' can be a useful conceptual term, (must like 'forest' is) but due to its very nature of grouping together unlike needs/wants, 'society' and its 'needs/wants' can never be said to be absolute, as any desire you claim 'society' holds can easily be contradicted by the players who make up 'society' as a whole. Thus, since society is really just a concept of the mind used to desribe individuals in numbers, when one of those numbers steps outside of your declared 'sociatal needs', either that person can no longer be regarded as part of the 'society', which is untrue (by the definition of society), or the 'society' itself must be recognised as having contradictary wants/needs and thus your definition of what 'society' wants/needs becomes subjective and thus meaningless.

In short, no one can speak for 'society' because 'society' is just a group of humans who may or may not agree. In this case not, but we are still part of 'society' together.

As one of the individuals that makes up your conceptual framework that is 'society', I personally prefer a society where no person may attack another. (be it thugs, troops or taxmen) Do you find my preference to be invalid? Impractical? Immoral? Please show me the circumstance under which violent aggression against me is in 'societies'(and thus mine by your grouping) interest. (self defense excluded.)

Generally because I hate freedom.

I distest Libertarianism because they want to do away with Welfare and want tax breaks for the Wealthy.

Originally posted by tigpoppa
sounds like anarchy to me.

I am an american and we dont have this party here. I support freedom and god by voting republican. The republicans are the true patriots who are not afraid to go toe to toe against liberals who want to burn our flag in the streets like these libertarians. I cant support a group that spits on the american way of life by burning our flag or demonizing President Bush, the last true president.

LOL... Good level.