Where is everyone ? The mystery remains ...

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posted on May, 12 2010 @ 09:21 AM
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However, the fatal drawback is that you can 'see' clear and obvious signs that your neighbours do in fact exist and that those houses are not vacant ... garbage bins appearing and disappearing ... sprinklers turning on/off ... the sound of cars travelling up and down your street ... etc, etc.
reply to post by tauristercus
 


Your teminology confuses me, Garbage bins? Sprinklers turning on and off? and cars?

Perhaps you are speaking of things so far in advance of my cup and string technology that it is impossible for me to even imagine them?

Hmm, Perhaps you are saying that many of the things we see everyday in the universe are the work of advanced beings and we just don't know it?

You have given me much to think about, in the meantime I'm begining phase two of project cup and string. I've glued a cup to every window in the house and have all the strings running to a central location in the house. My cat keeps eyeing my device with disdain and skeptism, I think she is actually a visitor from next door...




[edit on 12-5-2010 by Helmkat]




posted on May, 12 2010 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by tauristercus

Originally posted by LuckyStrike
What's to say that we haven't already begun to colonize the galaxy at some point in the past? Possibly, a previously advanced civilzation of humans here on earth were able to achieve interstellar travel and left before a big global wide cataclysm happened. This could have happened millions of years ago...Most evidence of any civilization could have easily been erased over millions of years.


But how would this explain the complete and total lack of observable evidence indicating the presence of other civilizations out there ? Sure the Earths previous civilization may have been completely wiped out, but what about the colonization program that started BEFORE the catastrophy ? What happened to them and their colonies and their artifacts and their communications ?

Silence reigns supreme out there apparently.


Well, a global catastrophe in the past could possibly eliminate most observable evidence of civilization and could throw the remaining human survivors into the dark ages once again. Now, since we have yet to step foot on another planet(besides moon) with the exception of the Mars Rovers we really haven't investigated the cosmos that much. This could partially explain why we haven't found evidence yet. But this does not answer why they haven't come to us though...

The problem is and I hate to go all conspiracy on ya(even though this a conspiracy website) is that the common person on this planet will never know the truth due to the filter that has been placed over our eyes. Every space program on this planet functions under that countries' government so it is up to them to decide what we are to know and what not to know. Unfortunately, it seems as though it will take an event like motherships hovering over major cities for us common folk to realize what is going on.

[edit on 12-5-2010 by LuckyStrike]



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 09:38 AM
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Hi,

Been lurking for a few years and this thread has finally prompted me to comment.

Firstly thanks for setting the thread out, it was enjoyable reading and discussion inducing.

My one issue with Fermi's theorum is context of time and his basis of frequency of occurence. If we take the numbers used as fact e.g. life on Earth commenced 4 billion years ago, the universe is some 14 billion years old what we do not have contextually is the lifespan of a universe?!?

By implication this could also mean as we do not know whether universes even have a lifespan and what houses them that where we are part of a system that has billions of stars and then galaxies that there could in turn be billions of universes housed within another entity.

By extrapolation and using the same frequency of occurence theories of Fermi then it could be that amongst one hundred billion universes that colonisation of galaxies and even the entire universe could have taken place an inordinate number of times - let's hypothesise in 90% of instances this is the case, but in our universe this has not happened for whatever the reason and we form part of the 10% of universes where colonisation does not occur for whatever reason. N.B. also where i say has not yet happened does not mean that it will not happen by the human race which again would prehaps include us at points in the future in the hpothetical 90%.

To further complicate this process if we assume that there are other universes as we can now safely say there are other solar systems, galaxies et al within our universe then it is reasonable to hypothesise that other universes would be of differing ages and not all the same age as ours. Think in terms of the lifespan of a star there is no fixed longevity from creation to death all stars vary in longevity, as such one can safely assume that universes also fluctuate in length of existance and thereby the colonisation theory although an absolute theory cannot be said to be proven or disproven because there is no context of commencement of colonisation and its longevity. It is utterly feasible that there have been inumerable colonisations of parts of our universe yet the evidence of such is out of our reach and equally as likely there has been none yet. However an equivalent universe by age and type etc would exhibit different qualities.

One final thought into this whole discussion is that exploration and expansion is driven in the main by commercial and prestige desires. That is to say Spains 16th Century exploration of South America was fiscally driven.

The US journeys into space were initially prestige driven. Where our society fails in the furthering of space exploration is the commercial viability and potential for revenues. A straight risk reward scenario.

Virgin Galactic is the first step of true colonisation and commercial enterprise in Space IMHO.

However alien species may not be driven commercially and therefore in terms of prestige exploration we could be looking at the scenario of cost versus reward as a reason why colonisation has not occured in our universe to date.

I hope my thoughts have not been too confused.



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 09:48 AM
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IMHO I believe that we were visited in the past. The visitors took what they were interested in and departed. They occasionally pop in to see if there are any new developments that they can benefit from.



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 09:53 AM
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Originally posted by tauristercus

THE FERMI PARADOX



Where are they? Many thanks for this effort. As for "disclosure" by earth's governments, I raise an issue that, to be honest, has been only tentatively (fearfully) mentioned which is the alleged fear of the American government that disclosure might create a national panic. Yet, in contrast to this scenario, we hear about polls that indicate a majority of Americans believe ETs exist and have visited us for sometime, but that our government in particular is hiding this from us.

The reason for our government's fear of public panic seems to be rooted in the imagined bad reaction of some American fundamentalist religious groups (less than 5% of our population) whose "locked down" mindset stemming from strict and literal biblical interpretations would be challenged and disrupted. This "leveraging" influence of a terribly small minority of Americans on "Disclosure" is not right and is holding back progress of America and the world. I hope this blockage can be discussed openly and resolved in favor of disclosure.


[edit on 12-5-2010 by havanaja]

[edit on 12-5-2010 by havanaja]



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 09:53 AM
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what about all the cats, dogs, pigs, dolphins, whales, and other animals???/ Just because they don't speak english dosen't mean they aren't intelligent....

In my opinion, animals are much smarter than humans, as they know how to work WITH nature, instead of against it....



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 10:06 AM
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reply to post by mellisamouse
 


If a dolphin could fire a gun he would kill you and everyone you love



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 10:08 AM
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reply to post by tauristercus
 


seti is like picking up a phone book, randomly calling a number and then assuming that person doesn't exist because he didn't pick up the phone.



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 10:16 AM
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There are too many assumptions made in the Fermi paradox.

The lack of concrete evidence is mentioned. Who lacks this information? Us? Fermi? Our (common people) lack of evidence means absolutely nothing. Any suspected sightings are quickly dismissed or discredited by governments and their officials. Any potential physical evidence is quickly snatched up and dismissed as something mundane. There may in fact be quite a bit of verifiable evidence that us common people are just not privy to.

I don't know about you but I really can't afford to install multimillion dollar radio telescopes, launch interplanetary probes, and hire teams of people to quickly cover up anything that may leak out.

Some possibilities to consider.

Any 'local' Et's may not be carbon based. They may not require the same resources or environment as us and therefore have no need to come anywhere near us.

The universe is much greater in size than currently theorized. We may be in some remote corner that no one cares about.

As has been stated, they may be too advanced for us to even recognize the signs of their existence. We went from the pony express to communicating through the air to landing probes on another planet in a VERY short time. What may we be doing in 1000 years? 10,000? 1,000,000?????

Do you think an ant sees mankinds impact on the world? Do they recognize our civilization and "stuff" as something unnatural? In other words.... an ant may crawl right up your wall and into your home, but does the ant recognize that wall and home as something put there by some higher intelligence, or just the same as a rock or cliff face?

We are looking at things from a human perspective. The point was brought up that if there were many advanced civilizations then surely some of them would try to colonize beyond their home planet.

Why? Because we would?

Maybe humans are the odd balls and the ET's are sitting content on their home planet. They may be thinking that space travel is dangerous, lonely, costly, and if you have what you need.....pointless. They may wonder why anybody would WANT to travel out into the unknown for no good reason other than because they can.



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 10:26 AM
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reply to post by tauristercus
 


I like your analysis; however, like most analyses, it falls short on several points.

One of the most basic premises of the Fermi paradox is that there isn't evidence for advanced alien civilizations, but paradoxically, it also states that they would be so far in advance of us that their tech would seem like magic.

The evidence that we are looking for is radio waves. Here's the problem with that. Because we are absolute babies, just born as a technological civilization, radio waves may very well be the most ridiculous form of communication in the universe as far as any advanced civilizations are concerned.

We are already looking at quantum entanglement devices for communication after only using radio waves for less than one hundred years. so let's say that the average developing technological society in the universe uses radio waves for 300 years before discovering a much better form of communication. That's 300 years in millions of years of development? We have been listening for radio wave communications for what, 40-50 years at best on limited frequency bands for limited periods of time? What are the odds that a technological society's use of radio waves as a form of communication happens to coincide with this time frame of our "listening" on the right frequencies for that level of development?

That's not even considering that there is a high cance that other developing soceities might skip right over the discovery of the use of radio waves entirely and find a better way of communicating over vast differences to start with.

Societies don't have to develop in the same way with the same progession or rates of progression.

so even if there should be 100 societies at our current level of development or within a range of our current development, there's no reason to assume that they are stuck using radio waves as their form of communication, or any method that would be able to comprehend as an intelligent communication for that matter.

Jaden



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 10:27 AM
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I didnt read all of the first post, but what do you mean? There are signs almost every week that they are around. Some species are absolutely around us. Maybe they created us, maybe not. But its obvious they are there. Nobody in their right mind can say that all the sightings for thousands of years are imagination. Nobody smart anyway.

And with billions of planets, you could have millions of alien races. The odds of them visiting our part of the universe should be pretty slim. I believe thats why we are "only" seeing a couple of alien races. That, and the fact that their technology may so far ahead of our own that we cant even detect them.

They may know about all dimensions and how they work for example. They may be able to be around us in other dimensions without us knowing anything about it. What we see as UFO's disappearing may be them switching dimensions. Or dematerializing. Who are we to say that everything must have physical form at all times?

We are not alone in my opinion, and we have never been alone.


[edit on 12-5-2010 by Copernicus]



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 10:31 AM
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Oh they're out there. They just don't want to talk to us. Who in their right mind would?



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Silicis n Volvo
 





theres a big difference between belief in ET life and belief in a god...

I believe there is a big difference between these beliefs. God gives us
guidelines for our lives. I think that is the big difference for most.


well god doesnt give you them because there is no god...but the guidelines about being good to fellow man are important and should be followed regardless of what you believe



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 11:16 AM
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Originally posted by havanaja

Originally posted by tauristercus

THE FERMI PARADOX



Where are they? Many thanks for this effort. As for "disclosure" by earth's governments, I raise an issue that, to be honest, has been only tentatively (fearfully) mentioned which is the alleged fear of the American government that disclosure might create a national panic. Yet, in contrast to this scenario, we hear about polls that indicate a majority of Americans believe ETs exist and have visited us for sometime, but that our government in particular is hiding this from us.

The reason for our government's fear of public panic seems to be rooted in the imagined bad reaction of some American fundamentalist religious groups (less than 5% of our population) whose "locked down" mindset stemming from strict and literal biblical interpretations would be challenged and disrupted. This "leveraging" influence of a terribly small minority of Americans on "Disclosure" is not right and is holding back progress of America and the world. I hope this blockage can be discussed openly and resolved in favor of disclosure.


[edit on 12-5-2010 by havanaja]

[edit on 12-5-2010 by havanaja]


whut? lol christians make up 73% of the population. It has nothing to do with religion anyways....god just keep beating religion with a stick why dont ya.



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 11:17 AM
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IMO we need to add at the least one more possibility to that list you present to us.

-" They can already be "around us", but we are not able to detect them!"

Interesting topic!



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 11:18 AM
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Great question!

I think that there is no other intelligent life out there. In the bible it does say, in so many words, that the heavens were made to show us God's power.

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard." -Psalm 19:1-3

If that is indeed so, than his power is ever evident. But, if there is life and it hasn't came to visit our location is hard to find. We are on the last arm of a spiral facing outward to galaxies millions, even billions of miles away! So maybe no one has even noticed us. Or looked at the composition of our planet and assumed life didn't exist there because it didn't match their equations of the elements needed to sustain intelligent life.

They may have visited but, found us to violent and vile. They may have felt that if they introduced themselves they would be met with violence and decided to keep their distance. For instance, if we found a world that was inhabited and it was full of war and violence, would we willingly visit or observe from a distance. I don't think we would go pay a visit no matter how curious we were. That may be the issue.

Besides in ancient text that can be interpreted to mean one thing or another and oddly none of the descendents are around to actually tell us what and why the beliefs were held; there is no concrete evidence that life is out there.

Doesn't mean unequivocably that it isn't, just means lack of evidence with the odds of supposed life being possible means there is either nothing or they don't want to deal with us at this moment.

Also, if they did colonize or wanted to colonize we should be afraid. If they find us they are far more advanced than we are. Our reaction would be strong and violent so they would come prepared to combat that. If their intent is to colonize, we would automatically become a suppressed slave race or pushed into colonies not being able to enjoy the earth that we have lived in for centuries.

If they are like us, imagine a global mimic of the colonization efforts we have done in the past and what our intent is in colonization. Maybe we wouldn't want them here if that is the case.


[edit on 12-5-2010 by AAFandom]



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 11:25 AM
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The Science that humans are going by now is good and healthy . But what if Your going by physics that have been figured out using the information that we have only on this earth



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 11:32 AM
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There really is only one solution. There once was a great civilization, millions of years old. By statistics, this civilization was a slow advancing, taking thousands of years just to invent any one thing. They advanced linearly, rather than exponentially like us. Because overwhelmingly species advance linearly in history, it is more likely. Because of slow development speeds, they were extremely unified and stable. As time went on, they found more like themselves, they grew and traded, and developed. Vast ring systems accelerated travel between arms of the galaxy, and over the course of some dozens of millions of years, they created an extremely stable civilization stretching throughout this arm of the galaxy, with heavy infrastructure. Then they met us, in our infancy. Perhaps 50,000 years ago. They did the standard procedure of analyzing us, testing us. New sentience must be documented. They discovered we can grow exponentially. We were their treasure. It was inevitably, therefore, they they would desire our genetic materials to be integrated into their own. By this stage of the game, this species already had changed their form several times. They controlled their own evolution. Logically, when something better was found, they took it. The human brain was integrated into a hybrid form. And these creatures were made their leaders. Then these hybrids built bigger and better versions of themselves. Eventually culminating into a superior species of both human and themselves in capabilities and thought. However they were not ready to deal with the problems of the human condition, and eventually greed and haste took over. It was like cavemen in control of the galactic arm. It all went to hell. Neighboring nations were ransacked, trade cut off, the intergalactic network shut down. The empire collapsed, broke apart, and became chaotic and feudal. The only thing preventing complete anarchy was the fact that each feudal state was so powerful off the legacy of their ancestors that any attempt to attack would inevitably end in ruin. Over time technology was lost and forgotten. They still used it, they just forgot how to build it. Decay and destruction over time eventually lead to worse and worse situations.

So when we do leave this rock, we will be looking at the last generations of a once noble and proud people. Undoubtedly our location was forgotten. But the question remains. What happens when the people who ended their civilization make first contact with that civilization? Pity? War? who knows. Maybe we'll get lucky and just grab their tech.



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 11:34 AM
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I think there is only really a few possibilities that make much sense. I did some research on Fermis paradox....and i found some things that i thught really explained my views.

I got this stuff from wikipedia so....

It is dangerous to communicate

"An alien civilization might feel it is too dangerous to communicate, either for us or for them. After all, when very different civilizations have met on Earth, the results have often been disastrous for one side or the other, and the same may well apply to interstellar contact. Even contact at a safe distance could lead to infection by computer code or even ideas themselves (see meme). Perhaps prudent civilizations actively hide not only from us but from everyone, out of fear of other civilizations.

Perhaps the Fermi paradox itself — or the alien equivalent of it — is the ultimate reason for any civilization to avoid contact with other civilizations, even if no other obstacles existed. From any one civilization's point of view, it would be unlikely for them to be the first ones to make first contact and therefore likely for them to face the same possibly fatal problems that supposedly prevented the earlier civilizations from contacting them. So perhaps every civilization keeps quiet because of the possibility that there is a real reason for others to do so."

The vast distances involved make detecting signals unlikely

"The signal strength of most known communication techniques (radio, laser, etc.) fades over a distance. In addition, most governments on Earth today enforce restrictions limiting how powerful broadcast frequencies can be. At the power levels currently used on Earth, any signal would become extremely weak by the time it reached even the nearest star. It may well be that other civilizations exist and are broadcasting signals of the same strength as Earth currently broadcasts, yet even if they did, current human technology would not be able to detect those signals more than a couple light years away."



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 11:39 AM
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here is two more possibilities that i think are most likely.

It is the nature of intelligent life to destroy others

"Another possibility is that intelligent species beyond a certain point of technological capability will destroy other intelligence as it appears. The idea that someone, or something, is destroying intelligent life in the universe has been well explored in science fiction and scientific literature. A species might undertake such extermination out of expansionist motives, paranoia, or simple aggression. In 1981, cosmologist Edward Harrison argued that such behavior would be an act of prudence: an intelligent species that has overcome its own self-destructive tendencies might view any other species bent on galactic expansion as a kind of virus. It has also been suggested that a successful alien species would be a superpredator, as is Homo sapiens.

This hypothesis requires at least one civilization to have arisen in the past, and the first civilization would not have faced this problem. However, it could still be that Earth is alone now. Like exploration, the extermination of other civilizations might be carried out with self-replicating spacecraft. Under such a scenario, even if a civilization that created such machines were to disappear, the probes could outlive their creators, destroying civilizations far into the future.

If true, this argument reduces the number of visible civilizations in two ways — by destroying some civilizations, and forcing others to remain quiet, under fear of discovery (see They choose not to interact with us) so we would see no signs of them."

No other civilizations have arisen

"Those who believe that extraterrestrial intelligent life does not exist argue that the conditions needed for life — or at least complex life — to evolve are rare or even unique to Earth. This is known as the Rare Earth hypothesis, which attempts to resolve the Fermi paradox by rejecting the mediocrity principle, and asserting that Earth is not typical, but unusual or even unique. While a unique Earth has historically been assumed on philosophical or religious grounds, the Rare Earth Hypothesis uses quantifiable and statistical arguments to argue that multicellular life is exceedingly rare in the universe because Earth-like planets are themselves exceedingly rare and/or many improbable coincidences have converged to make complex life on Earth possible.It is possible that complex life may evolve through other mechanisms than those found specifically here on Earth, but the fact that in the extremely long history of life on the Earth only one species has developed a civilization to the point of being capable of space flight and radio technology lends more credence to the idea of technologically advanced civilization is rare in the universe.

For example, the emergence of intelligence may have been an evolutionary accident. Geoffrey Miller proposes that human intelligence is the result of runaway sexual selection, which takes unpredictable directions. Steven Pinker, in his book How the Mind Works, cautions that the idea that evolution of life (once it has reached a certain minimum complexity) is bound to produce intelligent beings, relies on the fallacy of the "ladder of evolution": As evolution does not strive for a goal but just happens, it uses the adaptation most useful for a given ecological niche, and the fact that, on Earth, this led to language-capable sentience only once so far may suggest that this adaptation is only rarely a good choice and hence by no means a sure endpoint of the evolution of a tree of life."

en.wikipedia.org...





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