Where is everyone ? The mystery remains ...

Originally posted by DGFenrir
There are countles stellar bodies in the universe. They need to be yber advanced to be able to pinpoint our location. This reduces the odds of a contact even more.

Once a civilization becomes sufficiently advanced to attempt interstellar travel, it's almost a certainty that they will attempt to move out from their home system for numerous reasons, and out into the galaxy... given sufficient time, they would eventually extend their influence throughout the entire galaxy.
So it wouldn't be a matter of them deliberately searching for us (or other civilizations), they would instead be literally tripping over us eventually as they expanded from system to system.

Originally posted by blujay
They are right here.

There are countless numbers of craft with millions of 'off-Earthers' in our area at this time in history. Wouldn't you want to witness the end of a 26,000 year cycle of humans to see how it will turn out?

It's the Blockbuster of the millenia.

All those that believe in ET will say that they are here and have been here. There is no getting through to them......it intrudes on there fantasy world. Its beyond there comprehension that we may be alone.

Maybe all those UFO are actually OUR spacecrafts. Maybe the governments have been lying to us and we are 10-20 times more advanced then we think we are.

Its not so far fetched. the nazis invented jet fighters within basically 13 yrs. whos to say how advanced we REALLY are.

Either way we should not be seeking ET out if they are out there. Especially if they are the kind to 'eliminate potential rivals'.

Would WE want a new kid on the block? What if chimps or gorillas started showing human or even higher intelligence? We would make them extinct. Why should ET be any different?

reply to post by tauristercus


Couldn't it just be that humans are considered the cockroaches of the galaxy? Afraid to bring us to the house cause once we start spreading there is no limit to the damage we can bring about....

Just didn't see quarantine on your list and its always seemed the most likely...


edit for spelling

[edit on 12-5-2010 by MasterJedi]

Originally posted by Oreyeon

I totally agree with you that sooner or later, whether by choice or necessity, that we as a species absolutely will expand out into the galaxy. We've shown throughout our species history that we're an expansionist species and that given the opportunity to do so, then we definitely will.

We aren't going to last that long. We will kill ourselves off before we can infect other worlds with our poisonous presence. Other civilizations haven't made their presence known to us for good reason. Why would they want to? We have nothing to offer them. We barely even have our humanity left to offer. We certainly can't offer peace. There's no profit in peace. We have nothing they want. UFO sightings? Humans are a spectator sport. They are taking bets on how we will kill each other.

See...this is what im talking about. All those that believe that ET is peaceful are actually just misanthropic and are projecting all of humanitys good traits on ET. and exagerating all of humanitys bad traits.

Originally posted by tauristercus

Originally posted by McGinty
Thanks for your hard work on this excellent thread.

Please forgive me for picking bones, but why is this a paradox?

Fermi posits the idea that if the earth were not a freak and there were other inteligent life in the universe, then we'd see the evidence. A valid argument, but a straight forward one - not a paradox...!

Not picking bones at all but a valid question

Fermi was considering the probability of other technological civilizations developing within our galaxy over its 13 billion year existence as extremely high based on reasonable assumptions. The inescapable conclusion reached was that during the period of the galaxy's existence, thousands if not millions of technological civilizations would have had the time and opportunity to come into existence and eventually travel throughout and potentially colonize every suitable star system ... Fermi thought that evidence of the existence of these technological civilizations should have been every where you looked ... but in reality, there was no sign whatsoever that there had ever been any other civilizations in our galaxy besides ourselves.
To Fermi, this was a monumental paradox.

Arh, i finally gotten Fermi's point - thanks!

It's all about the probability:

His point is indeed the paradox itself; that the age/vastness of the universe says there should be intelligent life everywhere - he's bemoaning the fact that we are alone, that this contradicts this universal probability.

At first glances his idea seems pessimistic - that we should not be here, because no one else is. But in fact it's rather positive - highlighting the magnificent mystery of our apparently singular presence - that this is the biggest riddle we face.

Took me a while, but i got there in the end, cheers


[edited for paradoxical spelling!]

[edit on 12-5-2010 by McGinty]

We already (theoretically) know how to communicate at faster than light speeds, using quantum entanglement, whereby a "cloned" particle will behave in the exact same way and at the exact same time as it's double, regardless of distance. If we can find a way of manipulatig particles to transmit information digitally, then we can use quantum entanglement to transmit over vast distances instantly without the use of restrictive radio signals.

Assuming that these species are more advanced than us, it is reasonable to assume that they have already mastered this technology, which is why we cannot detect it. No radio waves, means no noise.

Originally posted by MasterJedi
reply to post by tauristercus

 

Just didn't see quarantine on your list and its always seemed the most likely...

Good point !

Perhaps it could fall under this category that I did mention:

(10) We are a protected species. Either developing species in general are protected or ours in particular is.

Originally posted by SmokeandShadow
reply to post by tauristercus

 

I think the most frightening thought is that we are alone in the universe. What would that mean??? It would have deep theological implications, for sure.

sure but how arrogant do you have to be to believe we are alone here...can you times billions of trillions of galaxies by the trillions of stars in those galaxies by the trillions of trillions of planets around those stars and get a number? because i cant....how is earth the only one with life? its not.

why do aliens have to find us? the universe is huge they could easily overlook us.

reply to post by MasterJedi


..... angry , evil , monkey cockroaches .

..I don't think we'll be allowed out of this solar system

Originally posted by nik1halo

Assuming that these species are more advanced than us, it is reasonable to assume that they have already mastered this technology, which is why we cannot detect it. No radio waves, means no noise.

A valid point.

As I mentioned in my OP, it's almost a certainty that any developing technological civilization will in it's study of the universe and physics, discover the electromagnetic spectrum. From that point, it would only be a short additional technological step to actually figuring out how to manipulate this em spectrum and use it for communication purposes.
I also mentioned that in its early use of radio/tv, that such a civilization would initially be pumping out massive amounts of em power almost indiscriminately and their planet would appear as almost a beacon at those em frequencies.
But it wouldn't take much longer before demand and dwindling bandwidth would force such a civilization to find smarter ways of using em besides simply relying on pure brute force transmitting power. As their transmitting technology improves, the amount of power they would need to use would diminish rapidly. Take our cell phones as an example ... they essentially run on milliwatts of transmitting power instead of watts as would have been necessary decades ago ... and we can do this because our technology has improved dramatically.
So where our planet back in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's would appear to be a virtual em blaze of power, today our em signature to the universe is far, far less. It could be that in less than a 100 years, our constantly improving technology may move us completely away from em broadcasting completely and at that point, we effectively become invisible to the rest of our galaxy and its inhabitants.
The above may highlight a common feature amongst all developing technological civilizations that their visibility in the em spectrum to the rest of the universe may be as short as 200 years ... they blaze into glory very quickly but almost as quickly they fade into invisibility.

However, not being able to pick up any em signatures still fails to explain why we don't detect their existence throughout the galaxy through their massive construction projects or if they've had enough time to colonize the galaxy completely, their very presence.

Originally posted by Silicis n Volvo

Originally posted by SmokeandShadow
reply to post by tauristercus

 

I think the most frightening thought is that we are alone in the universe. What would that mean??? It would have deep theological implications, for sure.

sure but how arrogant do you have to be to believe we are alone here...can you times billions of trillions of galaxies by the trillions of stars in those galaxies by the trillions of trillions of planets around those stars and get a number? because i cant....how is earth the only one with life? its not.

why do aliens have to find us? the universe is huge they could easily overlook us.

Or maybe you are wrong and we are alone....there is no arrogance here. Maybe we are just alone.....i know that might scare you.

I think maybe most of the people who believe in ET's problem is....they believe in ET so much that it almost become a religion to them. It takes so much faith to believe in ET.....many cant even comprehend that we may just be alone.

Im not a christian......but maybe just maybe the bible is right? Have you ever thought of that? that maybe we are all wrong? maybe atheists and eveyone else is wrong and the mocked christians are right?

Of course most of you have not....like i said it escapes your comprehension.

None of you will even entertain the possiblity....same with us maybe being alone in the universe.


its pure ignorance.

Do i pretend i know the answers? no.....but i entertain many possibilities.

Why cant we be alone in the universe? i think it would be pretty dang cool.....having our own imperium of man.

If any of you are familiar with the games and books of the warhammer 40k series...you will know what im talking about.

Maybe the universe is actually like that......you hippies would have a heart attack!

Originally posted by tauempire
Or maybe you are wrong and we are alone....there is no arrogance here. Maybe we are just alone.....i know that might scare you.

I think maybe most of the people who believe in ET's problem is....they believe in ET so much that it almost become a religion to them.

why should it scare anyone? it makes no difference to my life if we are alone or not. im a firm believer in ET life if another race visited earth id just say "i told u so"

if they didnt id just say "oh well i didnt live to see it" but some lucky sole in the future will get to see it.

theres a big difference between belief in ET life and belief in a god...maths, science, physics and simple numbers all point towards there being ET life somewhere...other than an old book and a little faith there is nothing to prove a religion correct.

any person who believes earth is the only planet with life on it is self centerd.

life only has to be single celled organisms...that is ultimately where intelligent life stems from.

im very stubborn and pig headed when it comes to this subject in the way that ill gladly say...if you think we are alone in the universe then you are wrong!

your right i cant fathom the idea of us being alone in the universe but it doesnt scare me...probly doesnt scare anyone lol why should it? its simple...theres either life out there or there isnt.................but there is

[edit on 12-5-2010 by Silicis n Volvo]

Originally posted by Silicis n Volvo

Originally posted by tauempire
Or maybe you are wrong and we are alone....there is no arrogance here. Maybe we are just alone.....i know that might scare you.

I think maybe most of the people who believe in ET's problem is....they believe in ET so much that it almost become a religion to them.

why should it scare anyone? it makes no difference to my life if we are alone or not. im a firm believer in ET life if another race visited earth id just say "i told u so"

if they didnt id just say "oh well i didnt live to see it" but some lucky sole in the future will get to see it.

theres a big difference between belief in ET life and belief in a god...maths, science, physics and simple numbers all point towards there being ET life somewhere...other than an old book and a little faith there is nothing to prove a religion correct.

any person who believes earth is the only planet with life on it is self centerd.

life only has to be single celled organisms...that is ultimately where intelligent life stems from.

im very stubborn and pig headed when it comes to this subject in the way that ill gladly say...if you think we are alone in the universe then you are wrong! simples

[edit on 12-5-2010 by Silicis n Volvo]

You proved my point lol. Going by science most religions can be proved wrong. but many followers will say " you are wrong! simples"

Thats why belief in ET is like a religion to you guys...it takes so much faith. There is no evidence of ET besides heresay and alleged sightings and myth.

You want to pull out UFO sightings and ancient carvings?

People in the bible and other religions saw other things that have no proof.....but UFO followers can openly mock them and there beliefs.

so lets count it down.

1) Both require faith.

2)Both have alleged sightings of things that have no proof(UFOS AND MIRACLES)

the only difference is that ET is more 'logical' then a 'god' in ET believers opinions.

But we all know logic can be proven wrong.

Here is that famous photo of Earth, snapped by Voyager 1, from 4 billion miles away.




What can we deduce from this photo? Nothing.

Here is the Sagittarius Star Field photo.



What can we deduce from this photo? Nothing.

Someone gazing at our star and pondering the planets orbiting it wouldn't have a clue about our mad, mad world.

I believe it is the same for us as we gaze into the cosmos on a beautiful summer eve.

Science? Bah. What have they done for us lately?

Man, I don't even know, right now, what's going on on the dark side of the moon. But I've got a feeling it's not good.

In closing, I am not saying "they" don't know about us; simply "we" don't know about them.

Pip pip.

Originally posted by univac500

Here is the Sagittarius Star Field photo.



What can we deduce from this photo? Nothing.

You're absolutely right that the photo itself provides scant evidence by which we can determine the existence or non-existence of extraterrestrial civilizations potentially occupying our galaxy.

My intention in using that pic in my OP was to highlight the unimaginable and uncountable number of star systems just within our galaxy alone.
But even considering that mind-boggling view, the point that I'm trying to ram home is that given the age of our galaxy (approx 13 billion years), even that staggering amount of stars could conceivably be colonized by any technologically advanced civilization that had the means and the will to do so ... there would effectively be nothing to stop them doing so, especially if they were the 1st to develop technology.
It's been estimated that once the decision had been made, that such a civilization could colonize every suitable star system in less than 50 million years ... which is essentially a tiny fraction of the time that the galaxy has been in existence.
And because of the shear amount of time available, if not that civilization, then another, or another, or another, ....

So basically, there's no reason to expect or assume that given the opportunity and the means, that sooner or later at least one civilization would not make the effort to go forth and colonize ... making themselves, their technology, their artifacts and themselves ubiquitous throughout the entire galaxy.

Again ... where are they ?

[edit on 12/5/10 by tauristercus]

Originally posted by tauristercus

Originally posted by univac500

Here is the Sagittarius Star Field photo.



What can we deduce from this photo? Nothing.

You're absolutely right that the photo itself provides scant evidence by which we can determine the existence or non-existence of extraterrestrial civilizations potentially occupying our galaxy.

My intention in using that pic in my OP was to highlight the unimaginable and uncountable number of star systems just within our galaxy alone.
But even considering that mind-boggling view, the point that I'm trying to ram home is that given the age of our galaxy (approx 13 billion years), even that staggering amount of stars could conceivably be colonized by any technologically advanced civilization that had the means and the will to do so ... there would effectively be nothing to stop them doing so, especially if they were the 1st to develop technology.
It's been estimated that once the decision had been made, that such a civilization could colonize every suitable star system in less than 50 million years ... which is essentially a tiny fraction of the time that the galaxy has been in existence.
And because of the shear amount of time available, if not that civilization, then another, or another, or another, ....

So basically, there's no reason to expect or assume that given the opportunity and the means, that sooner or later at least one civilization would not make the effort to go forth and colonize ... making themselves, their technology, their artifacts and themselves ubiquitous throughout the entire galaxy.

Again ... where are they ?

[edit on 12/5/10 by tauristercus]

Well why dont you look up the 'drake equation'. couple that with the fermi paradox and it gives you a great idea.

We are extremly lucky...somebody or something must have picked us....or we just got a great crapshoot.

www.youtube.com...

S&F on this great post.
Maybe just a little off-topic, but i have a theory regarding the idea that we are being left alone and observed, to be introduced to the rest of the galaxy when we mature...

Maybe this is the reason that TPTB seem to be pushing for a one world government (or NWO). We are not alone, the (major) governments of the world know this and are pushing for acceptance. Would this then be a bad thing, having a one world government, to be accepted by the rest of the galaxy (ala Star Trek - life imitating art?!....).

If there is more life out there (as i wish/hope/believe there is), part of the reason we may not see any traces of them is because we are not advanced enough tech-wise to see them. Just because we have had certain breakthroughs in physics and science in general, namely Einstein's and Newton's laws to mention just two, maybe some other race has had a genius that came up with different equations that led in entirely different directions..

Anyway, just my ramblings, for what theyre worth.
Cheers. Peace.

There IS evidence of extraterrestrials, but the question goes
how do you look at it. Ofcourse some are just stupid fake's but..

There are real images of flying machines not known to public.

- Battle of Los Angeles
- Belgium Triangle ufo

You have been served

I believe we are the only intelligent life in the entire universe. I'm 26 and in my teen years I believed very much in e.t life. I was very interested in abductions, u.f.o's, big x-files fan from the first episode and a nightly listener of Coast 2 Coast A.M.
I even had a funny experience happen where one afternoon I was drawing on my wall as I used to do and I drew a formation of circles. Later that evening I was listening to C2C A.M and looked at a photo of a crop circle that was reported. It looked exactly like the drawing I did that afternoon.

This is the photo of the crop circle.


I can't explain it but it can't make me say there must be e.t. life. That be just an assumption. I do however believe in the spiritual side of life due to experiences in my life and other family member's.