Scientific proof that GOD and Jesus DO Exist.

So in the end, we still disagree. Some believe in the Christian teachings, some do not. There still hasn't been anything that will prove things beyond a reasonable doubt. To bridge that we reach faith.

As a Pagan, I don't believe in Christian teachings, but there should be room enough for us all, the world is a big place.

Blessed Be
~Astral

that is what faith is, you don't need science to believe in God.

Originally posted by omega1
that is what faith is, you don't need science to believe in God.

Good Point..... God is in our hearts. (That goes for any God or Gods) Now, that also goes for athiests, they BELIEVE there is no God. Science and God are like apples and oranges.... Right now too many people try to put them in the same basket. No one will ever prove who is right or wrong. Just live and enjoy living together. Lets not pick on each others religion.

Why would the Vatican keep evidence of Jesus' existence under wraps? Surely they would release any evidence which supported biblical "history".

If the Vatican or the worlds governments did have definite proof of the existance of, or the non-existance of, Jesus Christ and/or God; Do you really think that they would release that information? Could you imagine the mass chaos around the globe from such an unveiling. Both cases would be equally as devastating in my opinion.

In light of these recent threads, I have reason to believe Babaji may be behind most of the teachings of the major religions. Could that be what they are trying to hide, the fact that most religions come from similar roots. I have just put up a thread about Babaji, I would recommend everyone to call to Babaji with reverence and see how you feel afterwards...

Originally posted by StrangeLands
Speaking as a "lil atheist", I have nothing but respect for your faith. Not all of us are evangelistic!

I have respect for you as well. Im just used to people burning on Christians because they see them as stupid for believing something purely on faith.

peace

Where there is no proof there will be belief because thats all there can be.

Belief can be wrong, becuse belief is not knowing. Thats why I never believe anything, if there is the possibility of being wrong then believing something is a waste of time and prevents you from seeking the real truth.

Where there is no proof there will be faith because people will WANT something to be true.

Where there is belief and faith there will be blindness.

There is a myriad of historical proofs that show Christianity is all lies, you have to dig deep to find them and Christians will refuse to anything of the sort.

If something is true, if something really happened then there will be proof of it. If there is no proof (or if all proof says its wrong) then it probably didn't happen.

I always hear that if it's proven that Christianity is false that the religious people would wreck the world, but I never hear anyone say that if it's proven that christianity is true the world will be wrecked by athiests... now why is that I wonder?

The whole basis for Christianity is FAITH. Without it you have just a bunch of rules and consequenses. Look at all the parables and stories in the Bible and they all revolve around putting faith in something unseen.

It's funny how close science and Christianity are similiar. Both require massive amounts of faith in things unseen. It's also how interesting how one seems to solidify the other too.

Actually, the scientific method demands an utter absence of faith. Everything must be tested, nothing should be blindly accepted, nothing is one hundred percent true until it is one hundred percent understood...

And before some wit brings up evolution and the big bang and other "unprovable" theories, I'll point out that provisionally accepting a good theory based on all the available evidence in also a fundamental principle of science. The secret is this: if the evidence changes and your theory is no longer supported, change your theory.

And that, my friends, is where science differs form religion.

I have no problem with belief. My disagreement was with the blanket assertion that "everyone" believes Jesus existed. I don't care if someone worships dust bunnies, that's their choice. Religion, at its best, provides people with a frame of reference, hope, and a sense of security in their lives. If it brings them joy, then I'm happy for them as well. But those who spew only hatred and use their faith as a justification for bad behavior, ignorance and intolerance DO offend me. I apologize to those who took my statement that Jesus didn't exist as an insult -- I was merely explaining why I don't believe that he was a real person.

to believe something because of missinformation is acceptable tho you have to be ready when shown the truth to accept your wrong.
(which is what i shall do if someone somewhere can show me god without posting verses in some book)

believing in something without any proof what so ever is totally weird to my thinking , it doesnt make sense.

lets bring this up with the end of world aussie bloke thread or zetatalk , people all over the net all decided this month was the end of the world - some believed it without proof , some looked into it and decided it was true , some sat on the fence and said nothing , some questioned the validity of the proof and decided to not believe.
now if this can happen in this day and age , why could this not happen 2000 years ago ?
there has been no proof what so ever of god , yet people blindly go about telling everyone how great it is to believe he exists ? people on the net are still pulling stories of comet impacts out of their arses trying to prove aussie isnt a fake - to me this is religion , its what it boils down to - when aussies dates come and go there will be new dates , new comets - all to some people total fact. yet THEY ARE WRONG , why cant religious people see they fall into the same catagery?

[edit on 8-6-2004 by acidhead]

The Jesus papyrus are 3 pieces of The Gospel acording to Matthew that were donated to Magdelen Collage in Oxford in 1901 by a former student who discovered them in Egypt, i may be wrong on the location.
It is not what is on the Papyrus that is controvertial (sp) as they seem to be fragments of Matthew 26: 7-8, 10, 14-15, 22-23, 31-33, but when they were written. The Authers of a book about the subject,
'The Jesus Papyrus' by Carsten Thiede and Matthew d'Ancona, contend that the Papyrus was written in the first century,sometime in the 70's B.C. not long after Jesus died. Before the papyrus were discovered no other copies had beed found that could have been written perhaps during Jesus' life time. Now the Papyrus are have been looked at by Experts all over the world and are genuine, but the date has been argued over ever since. Either they were written in Jesus' lifetime and would sugest that he is real or they were not. Here is a site that says that the dating methods were suspect, i tried to find a site that believed in the date but i was unable. Perhaps someone knows of a site that can give an argument for the reliability of the dates given by the authers.
www.bowness.demon.co.uk...

I think at the end of the day it is all about faith, you either believe or you dont.

The only proof that will sway me to really know that their is a god is a formal introduction and a handshake. I don't buy anything in the bible or anything that someone tries to force me to believe. Proof..hardcore proof not stories that have been rewritten many times over or stories of people miracles and how they now believe. The only proof that will sway me is like I said....

There is no proof. Religion is all belief.

Quote from my friend John "Science simply exists without religion, and Religion exists without science. There is no proof of it but in many it does exist."

I agree with this statement because proof is not what religion is about. Religion is about foolowing what you believe in.

I believe science has proven that prayer works...
It was a double blind experiment, in which a doctor was told that a number of his patients would have a Jewish Rabbi, Catholic Priest, and a Protestant Minister pray for them. The doctor didn't know who was prayed for, the patients didn't know.
The patients that were being prayed for did better in their recovery.

Either I learned about it in school, or it is an idea I had for a movie....I'll try to find information on it.

If you want to use Words of Wisdom and quotes you may want to think about these.


"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." - Albert Einstein, Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton


Imagination is more important than knowledge. - Albert Einstein


I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details. - Albert Einstein


My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. - Albert Einstein

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. - Albert Einstein

Originally posted by jedijt76
...deletia... you just need to believe in your heart and you will find the awnsers.

I believe not in organized religion and i was brought up from birth roman catholic. but i just trust in the word of GOD , GOD needs no explanations for his existance. ...deletia...

That is the entire matter - belief, faith, trust, which require NO proof or explanation, scientific or otherwise. Therefore, what is the point of posting this? Remember, a believer requires no proof and none is sufficient for a skeptic.

How's THIS for a VATICAN CONSPIRACY?

It has been rumoured for decades that the VATICAN has been hiding many incriminating documents and artifacts from Antiquity (additional 1st and early 2nd century gospels for example which portray a "Jesus" not quite in line with what they want to believe about him, i.e. more of a warrior political Jewish Daviddic Messiah Figure, not the harmless little Rabbi everyone imagined him to be! ) and there have been repeated stores from several sources claiming again and again that the Vatican has even has carted off several Dead Sea Scrolls (between 1946 and 1960) which will never be shown to the general public for fear it would undermine the basic tenets of the Christian Faith, by showing that the Dead Sea Sect Community at Qumran (BC 200 to AD 68) was a a kind of "model for the Church" and that their hero, the socalled Teacher of Righteousness (BC 196 to BC 104) prefigured the "suffering Righteous martyr" long before "Iesous" ever came to existence.

As for all those Dead Sea Scroll documents that "went missing" (!) after the Vatican came to take a look at them, there is an interesting story about one scroll in Particular: THE DANIEL SCROLL. Here's how the story is generally told:

There was a CIA employee back in 1948-1949 who was in Damascus (Syria) when he came across an Egyptian dealer in "black market" antiquities (related to the group around "Kando" who held several of the Cave One Scrolls for a time):

This CIA operative was named Miles Copeland. He and his wife (so the story goes...) actually held in their very hands a 40 foot scroll of a copy of Daniel which was written (like our book) in both Hebrew and Aramaic according to some of the excerpts he showed to some liguists he knew.
1947, August

Miles Copeland's title seems to have been something like "American CIA representative to Damascus". The disintegrating scroll was said to have "come from rock caves near Jericho"

Copeland and his wife agreed to photograph the scroll to see if he could find someone to identify it. The scroll was unrolled on the roof of the American Legation in Damascus and photographed in a stiff wind that peeled off large chucks of the scroll ends which blew away in the gust.

(OUCH!) . His wife later claimed privately that 30 frames of film were taken, which was not quite enough to cover the entire scroll. One unidentified American Embassy official in Beirut who saw the photographs is said to have tentatively identified it, yes, as indeed, part of the Old Testament book of Daniel.

At least he could see that part of the Text was in Aramaic and part in Hebrew and it quoted our present day hotchpotch book of Daniel.

According to Miles Copeland's wife, the Egyptian merchant never returned to claim his Scroll, and soon after he photographed the scroll, someone within the Ecole Biblique (the Vatican controlled Study Group) got wind of the find, came and confiscated all copies of the photographs in his desk and all photographs, along with the Daniel scroll itself were taken away into the vaults of the Vatican, where it allegedly is housed to this day.

Tiny Fragments of at least 3 other copies of the book of Daniel were eventually found at Qumran in 1952, five years after the reported incident., so we know the book was important to the Dead Sea Community. These fragments can be dated from about BC 80 to about AD 30 based on the "paleography" (Herodian writing style)

Since the text of this scroll was so long (Mrs Copeland claimed it was over 40 feet) it must have been more than just the Book of Daniel we know today in the Masoretic Text (dated 980AD from a single MSS in Leningrad, the "official" version used by most Jews today). The common copy of Daniel could have been copied onto a scroll of about 25 feet.

Miles was no scholar himself, but he did elicit some opinons from people who knew more about the Dead Sea Scrolls, and several different people suggested the text might have been a PESHER (verse by verse commentary) on the Book of Daniel which would account for its double length.

Following each verse of a PESHER COMMENTARY SCROLL (e.g. thePesher on Select Psalms for all the Sons of Light in the Last Days, or Pesher on the Prophet Habakkuk in the Last Days etc.) would be the phrase :

(e.g. "interpreted, this passage refers to all the Sons of Light in the Last Days who have separated themselves from the Sons of Darkness and from the Wicked Priest who led them to try and harm the Teacher..." etc.)

Who knows how MANY OTHER Dead Sea Scrolls have been hidden from the general public? The Vatican Control Ecole Biblique heavilly censored any findings from the caves until someone at the Huntington Library in California in 1991 finally decided to allow wider access, and now most of the material is in print and in modern translation.

But how do we know how much is still being held back?

Do they really think they can stop people from putting two and two together about the more violent tendencies of "Jeeeezzuzzz" i.e. R. Yehoshua bar Yosef, the Galilean, who was after all, executed during the reign of Tiberius for ARMED SEDITION AGAINST ROME during a Rebellion in AD 36 (the 100th anniversary of the Roman Invasion under Pompey in 63 BC) ???