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Roswell Case Closed: what really happened

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posted on May, 12 2010 @ 09:04 PM
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reply to post by Arbitrageur
 


Dear Arbitrageur

My take of Roswell is, the craft what ever it is or where ever it if from gets hit by lighting on the 4th of July 1947. That causes a problem with something on board and that blows out a portion of the shell. That is what was found on the Brasel ranch.

However it fly’s on from there and finally comes to rest at Corona NM.

Marcel investigates the Brazel ranch while others unknown find the site at Corona.

Blanchard put both together and thinks he is doing the right thing by the USA and the world for that matter and issues a press release. But he doesn’t know about the previous crashes which includes bodies being found and held in Washington. He is also unaware of the secret policies already in place for just such an episode, after all he is only a colonel at the time.




posted on May, 12 2010 @ 09:27 PM
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reply to post by MAC269
 


So if "considerable scotch tape" was used to hold together the craft remnants that were found on the Foster Ranch, what does that tell us about the nature of the craft?

I think if you want to bring the slimmest hope of aliens into this story, you have to go back to your earlier speculation that it might have been two different craft, the remnants of a big balloon at the Foster Ranch, and possibly something more interesting at a second crash site, that wasn't held together with scotch tape.

If it was all part of the same craft and it was held together by scotch tape, that's not sounding very technologically advanced to me.



posted on May, 12 2010 @ 11:40 PM
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reply to post by Arbitrageur
 


Dear Arbitrageur

Thanks at least you have been reading my posts.

I just can not get past the idea that they would all have been sent to the funny farm for such miss identification.

By all accounts they new what a flying disc meant, especially after the Kenneth Arnold thing a few week before. These guys where professionals in their field not some country bumpkin.

Perhaps the tin foil of the mogul balloon interfered with the anti gravity field on the craft during the storm. Perhaps there was a mixture of the two craft on the desert floor.

Just answer this one why would anybody pick up balsawood and tin foil i.e., Hershey bar wrappers from the desert floor. Except to stop the animals eating it.

Let alone the fuss that was made of it back at the base. Hell if you were not worried about the animals you would just walk on by.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 01:47 AM
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Originally posted by MAC269
Thanks at least you have been reading my posts.

By all accounts they new what a flying disc meant, especially after the Kenneth Arnold thing a few week before. These guys where professionals in their field not some country bumpkin.

Just answer this one why would anybody pick up balsawood and tin foil i.e., Hershey bar wrappers from the desert floor. Except to stop the animals eating it.


Yes of course I read your posts, thanks for reading mine too!

Well the Ramey memo, if it really does say "DISC" puts that in quotes, perhaps meaning even though Brazel called it a Disc, they knew better and put "DISC" in quotes.

What you're saying is exactly what happened according to the newspaper article, he DIDN'T pay much attention to it when he found it:

www.ufologie.net...


they came upon a large area of bright wreckage made up of rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper and sticks.

At the time Brazel was in a hurry to get his round made and he did not pay much attention to it.


So your a good guesser, you didn't think he would pay much attention to it and he didn't. So what changed?


The next day he first heard about the flying disks, and he wondered if what he had found might be the remnants of one of these.


Brazel probably never would have wondered if it might be a "disc" if he hadn't seen his first news reports about flying discs. The news was inundated with such reports after the Arnold sighting, maybe one or two such reports a day nearly every day! So Brazel wasn't expert enough to know what the wreckage was, but yes he was influenced by the news stories according to that article.

And the people at the base who put "DISC" in quotes (If that memo really does say "DISC" as some people claim) shows me that they're not brain dead by putting "DISC" in quotes, meaning they know that's not what it really is.



[edit on 13-5-2010 by Arbitrageur]



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 02:49 AM
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A Tale of two Roswell's, or maybe more ?
The Roswell Incident as being discussed can be traced to a definite start date, 21 Feb 1978. The eye witness testimony, affidavits, or what have you ALL are dated after 1978. The majority are dated in the early 1990's. including the key witnesses used in the Air Force Case Closed report. These testimonies are contradictory in many cases even from repeated testimonies from the same witness. At best, they are 31 years old but usually are 50 or more years old. Is it any wonder that Roswell is a real mess if you use post 1978 witness testimony ?

The other side of the coin is the pre-1978 stuff. There ain't much to go on and nobody is interested in a non-event, which was the First Roswell Incident. A 31 year long non-event? But filter out all the post 1978 myth making and money making stuff, concentrate on pre 1978, and just look for anomalies, or things that seem unusual. For example, Mack Brazel died in 1963. Has anyone ever bothered to trace his life from the 9 July 1947 interview in the news until 1963. Did he suddenly come into good fortune compared to being foreman/caretaker of the Foster Ranch ? If so, how soon after the original happenings?

From the perspective of the Case Closed situation, The Mogul mission may have been very highly classified at the time but the project name was not. References to "mogul" prior to 1978 would be interesting indeed.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 02:53 AM
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reply to post by Arbitrageur
 


Dear Arbitrageur

In my mind what Brazel said or did not say is not the point. As I have said before it would seam that he was not known to be the sharpest knife in the draw.

However the fact is that they made Blanchard up to be a 4 star general latter so it would go without saying he was most likely quite bright.

He was the one that may that infamous press release.



posted on May, 13 2010 @ 03:50 AM
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"He was the one that may that infamous press release."

Really ?
Historical records indicate otherwise. If Lt Haut actually obtained approval from the command office, it should have come from Col Jennings.


reference

www.roswellfiles.com...

"In the Morning Report of the Roswell Army Air Force Base for July 8, 1947, we find that Col Jennings, who was second in command of the 509th, officially assumed command of the 509th and the Roswell AAFB."



posted on May, 15 2010 @ 09:04 PM
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I think the Roswell crash was a true alien experience,why after all these years was it still hidden under a cloak of denial,for one thing a mogul ballon is nothing compare to what could blow us off the face of this world anytime,so why the big to do about a ballon in this day and age,also the part about the dummies,not unless they were doing a experiment on children and did not want it to get out,so why would the air force ask the mortician in this case about how many child size caskets he had and could they be hermatically sealed,the only reason they would ask that is so not to let out some kind of contagion and keep the body some what preserved for futher testing,so for my part i think it is the first alien find



posted on May, 15 2010 @ 09:32 PM
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reply to post by Mr_skepticc
 


why do they have to come up with several cover stories then?



posted on May, 15 2010 @ 10:09 PM
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reply to post by nightwing
 


The Roswell Incident as being discussed can be traced to a definite start date, 21 Feb 1978. The eye witness testimony, affidavits, or what have you ALL are dated after 1978

No it isn't, an ex RAF officer told his daughter the whole story, including dead bodies, on his death bed in 1974. The woman involved has a photo pf her father under a banner saying "Welcome to Roswell home of the 509th", yet the USAF, deny any British airmen were ever on secondment to the 509th.



posted on May, 15 2010 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by Arbitrageur

And if you believe the Ramey memo has the word "DISC" in it (I'm not sure but it looks possible), then doesn't that also show us that he knew it wasn't a disc because he put the word "DISC" in quotes with the quotes signifying that's what people called it but they knew that's not what it really was? Why else would they put that word in quotes? So maybe the quotes used on the word "DISC" in the Ramey memo proves your point, that Ramey actually knew it wasn't really a disc, even though people were calling it a "disc"? (The word disk being offered by Brazel thanks to Kenneth Arnold and the flurry of other flying disk reports in the previous few weeks which you also seem to be discounting the influence of in your analysis).




The use of "flying disc" and "flying saucer" was less than 2 weeks old. They were routinely placed in so-called scare quotes in newspaper stories because the usage was brand new and unusual. "Disc" might be applied to anything people were reporting, whether truly disc-shaped or not. (Most people were reporting "discs" or something similar, like ovals or circles, but many were not--cylinders, cigars, spheres, triangles, etc.--but all were being called "saucers" or "discs". ) These were just newly coined catch-all terms for strange things people reported seeing in the sky, like calling it a "UFO" today.

Thus it wouldn't be strange for Ramey to also place the word in quotes. Also, as you point out, if an intact or semi-intact object was recovered it may not have been truly disc-shaped, as, e.g., base PIO Walter Haut's affidavit that what he saw in the base hangar was more egg-shaped. (Also a bunch of witnesses saw the thing being hauled under a tarp through the center of town on a flat-bed truck shortly before Haut saw it. Again, the usual description is oval or egg-shaped). Could have been something like an escape pod instead of the original craft, which blew up over the Foster Ranch creating the debris field.

(Incidentally, since you want to quote 1947 newspapers, Major Marcel was quoted back then saying the debris was "scattered over a square mile". Does the weather balloon + radar target in the photos look like it be collected over a "square mile"?)

Also you can't just consider the words in isolation. The Ramey memo describes something "IN the disc" (more complete phrase: "IN the 'disc' they will ship"). Ramey at that moment was trying to sell the radar target balsa kite at his feet (which weighed only a few ounces) as the "disc". But what is "IN" a radar target kite to ship? It's just 2-dimensional foil/paper candy/chewing gum wrapper material. There is no insides and nothing to ship.

The Ramey memo also clearly mentions "THE VICTIMS" in the sentence before being "FORWARDED" to someone at "Fort Worth", and I don't believe Mogul balloons had crews that could be "victims".




It is also interesting that Ramey went out of his way (in news stories) to mention that the object could NOT have carried a crew (why bother to even mention it if only to discount the idea?) and was also claiming it would have been 25 feet across if reconstructed. The Pentagon issued similar statements about size and lack of crew, and also specifically denied the same day that the flying saucers could be spacecraft. Again, why were they even bothering to bring up the topics, unless the purpose was to debunk the ideas?

The next day, it was announced the military was running a debunkery campaign to kill all the "rumors" about the saucers, and staged various balloon/radar target demonstrations to debunk Roswell & the saucers. So much effort and denial over supposedly so little. They doth protesteth too much.



posted on May, 16 2010 @ 12:39 AM
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Well.....

I finally found that Popular Mechanics article regarding Roswell.

It was in the July 1997 edition, written by the Science & Technology Editor, Jim Wilson.

If I can't find a copy on line, I'll transcribe the major points & the interesting conclusions & scan the article.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not



posted on May, 16 2010 @ 02:41 AM
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Originally posted by debrisfield
(Incidentally, since you want to quote 1947 newspapers, Major Marcel was quoted back then saying the debris was "scattered over a square mile". Does the weather balloon + radar target in the photos look like it be collected over a "square mile"?)


Good post, but you seem to willfully ignore the government disclosure of Mogul by referring to it as a "weather balloon + radar target" when the Air Force has admitted that's not what it was,

I don't know about the square mile claim, I thought Marcel described 250 feet wide at the far end by 4000 feet long or something like that? There's no doubt that the pieces of debris were very small and covered a large area. Some people say that's inconsistent with Mogul, but it looks consistent to me. I think the discrepancy is that the people who think a large debris field is not consistent with mogul are imagining debris pieces larger than what was found. Regarding the photos, WHAT PHOTOS? I've never seen any photos of all the debris collected. There was certainly more to Mogul than what was photographed with Marcel in the "Ramey memo" photo, but they didn't show all of it because they were trying to pass it off as a weather balloon instead of Mogul.

And I think some people don't appreciate how big Mogul was.
The Cold War’s Classified Skyhook Program: A Participant’s Revelations


I was busy calibrating instrumentation for top-secret Project Mogul in the spring of 1947. In retrospect, I was totally unaware of the project’s actual identity. My security clearance was for the lower rating of confidential. I was unaware of the project title for another forty-eight years, until 1995.

I write from a thirty-five-year professional career as a Skyhook balloon specialist and direct experience with most of the programs in these revelations.

Skyhook balloons were huge. The average size of those discussed in this article was double the six million cubic feet of the Hindenberg. Their diameters were about 300 feet with a flaccid length of 430 feet.

The prime launch site for Project Mogul was Alamogordo Air Base in New Mexico, west and therefore upwind of Roswell.


The Mogul flight 4 in question included 28 balloons the size of "weather balloons" and three radar targets, plus various other components. So there's 28 times as much debris as a weather balloon just in the balloon material.


Also you can't just consider the words in isolation.
I agree but I can't say the memo makes perfect sense with the interpretation we've been given.


The Ramey memo also clearly mentions "THE VICTIMS" in the sentence before being "FORWARDED" to someone at "Fort Worth", and I don't believe Mogul balloons had crews that could be "victims".
I'm not sure it says "victims", the first letter looks like a V, and the 2nd and 5th letters look like an I but it might say "viewing" for all I know, the other letters are unclear.




It is also interesting that Ramey went out of his way (in news stories) to mention that the object could NOT have carried a crew (why bother to even mention it if only to discount the idea?) and was also claiming it would have been 25 feet across if reconstructed. The Pentagon issued similar statements about size and lack of crew, and also specifically denied the same day that the flying saucers could be spacecraft. Again, why were they even bothering to bring up the topics, unless the purpose was to debunk the ideas?


So the evidence that someone says it couldn't have carried a crew is somehow twisted to be used as evidence that it could have or did? That seems like pretty twisted logic. Even though they lied to us about it being a weather balloon instead of Mogul, it's still true that Mogul didn't carry a crew and the foster ranch debris sounds like Mogul from everyone's description. If anything carried a crew, it wasn't the wreckage found at the Foster ranch. It would have to be the hypothetical second crash site which nobody seems to have any evidence of occurring in 1947 and which could have been found months or years later as the Air Force suggests, from the evidence (or should I say the lack of it), presented.

[edit on 16-5-2010 by Arbitrageur]



posted on May, 16 2010 @ 02:54 AM
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Originally posted by Maybe...maybe not
Well.....

I finally found that Popular Mechanics article regarding Roswell.

It was in the July 1997 edition,


Thanks for the info MMN, I found something by Jim Wilson of Popular Mechanics, but I guess it only references the original article from 1997, it's not the actual article:

Roswell Declassified (Popular Mechanics article)

Edit to add:

But this looks like the actual article online:

ROSWELL PLUS 50

I look forward to reading it.

Thanks and regards, Arby



[edit on 16-5-2010 by Arbitrageur]



posted on May, 16 2010 @ 03:26 AM
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reply to post by Arbitrageur
 


Arbitrageur…..

Thanks mate…..that’s the one


I found the mooted Japanese origin of the “craft” quite interesting……



”PM suspects the craft that crashed at Roswell will eventually be identified as either a U.S. attempt to re-engineer a second-generation Fugo, or a hybrid craft which uses both Fugo lifting technology and a Horten-inspired lifting body. In either case, Japanese engineers and pilots brought to the U.S. after the war to work on the project could have been the dead "alien" bodies recovered at the crash site.

greyfalcon.us...


I’ll have to read it again & refresh my memory regarding the details.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not



posted on May, 16 2010 @ 03:48 AM
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For jasmine23,

You are referring to the Glenn Dennis testimonies, the earliest of which is traceable to 1989. (42 years after the incident.) One of the earliest testimonies (post 1978) about alien bodies, and his testimony in that regard keyed around a nurse he knew (very well by some of his accounts) but was never able to identify for researchers in a manner that allowed this "key" witness to ever be located. Here is the wiki reference on it which I hope you might enjoy reading.

en.wikipedia.org...

But note this from the above reference:
"For his changing story on the nurse, Dennis was deemed one of the “least credible” Roswell witness by prominent UFO author Kevin Randle in 1998. He said Dennis was not credible “for changing the name of the nurse once we had proved she didn't exist."

To be fair, I believe, as inferred by the above link, that Dennis correctly remembered an incident but due to time and memories, incorrectly remembered the date of this memory. (Even Jesse Marcel could not remember the month or year when he first contacted Friedman in 1978) Bear in mind that much later, Dennis invested a lot of time and effort towards being one of the three founders of the International UFO Museum and Research Center in Roswell in 1991.

For reject, excellent question, but who is "they" ?

Always keep dates in perspective, you can't wade through mythology without them. So far, I count two "official" stories and due to the dates, TWO separate sources. The first story was from the ARMY Air Force. (US Air Force did not exist yet) The latest is from the US AIR FORCE. For those that wade through the Pre 1978 Pre myth era, there is another pertinent and apparently "real" cover story, which occurred near Roswell, published in the Alamagordo Daily News and in New Mexico Magazine, circa 1947, but I doubt many will find it since it ain't about aliens or UFO's, but is Mogul related.

As to the the why, I can only speculate about the ARMY story in 1947. As to the modern AIR FORCE story, it was an official inquiry from a congressman. The AIR FORCE has to respond to congress, not a choice.

For FireMoon, page six you referenced special debris testimony from Jesse Marcel (either Jr or Sr, don't matter). That is all post 1978 stuff when the tale starts to grow without boundaries. But your comment above on page 7 is attention getting. If you know of testimony dated prior to 1978, I ain't the only one interested. Be aware that the problem with the "death bed " testimonies is that they tend to be second hand or worse. (That means "hearsay" which is always refutable in an investigation and never admissible in court.) The other problem is the testimony is NOT dated 1974 when he passed on. It is dated when his daughter went on record talking about this. (Real pre 1978 testimony is scarce as hens teeth.) I have not researched a British presence in the 509th back then but it is surprising where you can find those guys. One Brit pilot flew an F-117 in the Kosovo action as a member of the 49th Tactical Fighter Wing. Another is flying the F-22.

For Arbitrageur, you have a bigger "foot stomper" than you realize. The Mogul balloon train was a real eye catcher, not only back then, but today it would be equally unusual. Jaw-dropping wow stuff.


[edit on 16-5-2010 by nightwing]



posted on May, 16 2010 @ 08:47 AM
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reply to post by nightwing
 


It wans't a death bed bed confession. it was one of the last things a dying man told his daughter at a time, when no-one had a clue about what he would have been talking about. His daughter assumed it was just the drugs talking and had no interest in UFOs at all. The lass did tell a few friends over the years, about his tale and it was only in 1996 when the film Roswell was released was it that, her friends said.

"Hey isn't that exactly the same story your father told you?"



posted on May, 16 2010 @ 11:18 AM
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Originally posted by Maybe...maybe not
Thanks mate…..that’s the one


I found the mooted Japanese origin of the “craft” quite interesting……
You're welcome, and thanks to you because I never would have found it without your 1997 Popular Mechanics reference.

By the way, this is a question for everyone:

Has anyone seen anything resembling the "forthcoming release of documents" referenced in the article?

That article mentions the following:

As our investigation neared its close, PM was alerted to a forthcoming release of documents that may fill in these two missing pieces of the Roswell puzzle. They may also explain two other curiosities: the presence of the crisscrossed radar-deflecting pattern on the bottom of the Roswell craft, and–to the consternation of those who seek an unearthly explanation for Roswell–the origin of the "dead aliens" who have so often been described as having Oriental features.


But their later article which I referenced in the same post doesn't discuss any further disclosure of the "forthcoming release of documents" that might show the Japanese origin, however it does do even more to discredit the story of Frank Kaufman including a death-bed confession of sorts. The only thing I can think of is that 1997 was the same year that the "Case Closed" document mentioned in the OP was released by the Air Force, so maybe that's the one they were talking about and it hadn't been published yet? If that's the case, they might be surprised the released documents showed the bodies were supposedly of "test dummies" and not of Japanese people as Wilson suggested.

Also I feel compelled to note, my opinion of the credibility of Jim Wilson's writing is lower than the slime on a slug's belly after reading the article he wrote about the "abandonment of area 51" when in fact Satellite photos showed the exact opposite, that they had expanded the base:

The New Area 51 The Air Force has abandoned top-secret testing at its once most secret test site. We know why and we know where they moved it to. BY JIM WILSON
Either he's totally incompetent or a disinformation agent because the satellite images of the base directly contradict Wilson's claims:

Images of Top-Secret U.S. Air Base Show Growth

All I know is that Jim Wilson is completely and utterly wrong. Maybe he's not a disinformation agent, maybe he just made a wrong turn as this poster suggests:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Originally posted by gariac
I know I've answered this at least once. Jim Wilson went down Mailbox Road and failed to make a right onto Groom Lake Road. Thus he ended up at the range 61 gate. There is a gate there because Nellis bombs it, not to mention AC103 target practice. You can't see the front gate of Area 51 unless you carefully climb Hawkeye Hill. That should have clued Wilson in that he took the wrong road.


I don't know if that is accurate or not, or what the real explanation is for his irresponsible journalism. Which is worse, going to the wrong address and concluding that the base is closed? Or being a paid disinformation agent of the government? In the end I don't think the reason really matters as much as the fact that I just can't trust what he says after that.

So to bring this back on-topic, I don't really have much confidence in what Wilson writes about Roswell, either. I read his article anyway, but more for entertainment value than for seeking facts.

The Japanese probably were thinking about incendiary devices as Wilson claims in his Roswell explanation, as were the Americans. In fact one of the more "out of the box" incendiary weapons the Americans apparently considered was to attach something like candles to thousands and thousands of bats and send them into a Japanese city. But I guess that turned out to not be very practical as it was never done.

But Wilson's claim that the "little people" found were Japanese and not aliens is an entertaining one. Stanton Freidman thinks there is yet to be disclosed information about Roswell...what if Wilson is actually right about what that information will show?

Roswell Declassified


Despite the disappointing document disclosure by the National Archives and the discovery that Kaufmann had altered his military records, Friedman says it is premature to close the books on Roswell. He believes convincing evidence of an alien landing exists but that it has yet to be disclosed. And he says he knows exactly where to find it--in vaults at the National Reconnaissance Office and the Central Intelligence Agency.


Well at least Friedman admits if there's evidence of aliens, "it has yet to be disclosed". The thing held together by scotch tape found at the Foster ranch most certainly wasn't an alien craft.



posted on May, 16 2010 @ 03:27 PM
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reply to post by nightwing
 
Your question about the nurse in the case that Glenn knew was a army nurse,which if i recall from reading on this case and if the story was true she died under odd circumstances,just as some other man involved in this case ,someone in the need to know group,can't recall his name was either pushed are accidently fell,hmm out of a hotel room are hospital have to look it up again, maybe you know and can tell me his name



posted on May, 16 2010 @ 03:44 PM
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reply to post by jasmine23
 
The man name was James Forrestal,Secratary Of Defense at the time of the roswell crash it was a 18 story hospital that he fell out of,are he jumped,they said he was so overwelmed with the roswell case he was not the same after,The nurse was supposed to have died in a suppose military plane crash,but they could never find a record of it, My point is if the goverment doesn't want you to find out things,they will either lie are say you never existed are intimadate you



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