Roswell Case Closed: what really happened

Roswell is no fiction. Get your feet down to the ground please.

Originally posted by yeti101
reply to post by Viper2

 

when poeple like William Moore (who co-wrote the first book on roswell) no longer believe it was a spaceship its time to face reality. Unless you think ufologists like moore,pflock & jeffrey are closed minded skeptics?

Good point. I don't think Moore is a closed-minded skeptic.

Like Moore, at some point we have to re-assess our assumptions about Roswell. It seemed like a great story when we all knew they were lying to us about the weather balloon, and they were covering something up, and we didn't know what that was.

Originally posted by Maybe...maybe not
On theory I haven't seen mentioned here is the idea the wreckage was from an experimental Japanese aircraft, as per the article in "Popular Mechanics" a few years ago. I might try to see if I can find the article on line.

I'll look forward to reading that if you can find the link.

But a huge debris field with foil and balsa-wood like substances described by Marcel and others seems far more consistent with a long balloon train of radar targets, than with any type of conventional aircraft, unless the aircraft was made from balsa wood and foil.

Originally posted by tigpoppa
A while back the air force released a document known as "roswell case closed" the link is provided below:

Roswell Case Closed

I read this a long time ago and reread it again recently. (snip)


So lets just play along now and go with their explanation of it being a weather balloon.

I really like your avatar, it's one of my favorites!

Yes the government lied to us about the weather balloon. That was a coverup story from 1947 to 1994.You say you read the "case closed" report, however if you did you would know the government admitted the weather balloon was a cover story and they are now claiming it was a much larger balloon. And it wasn't for weather. So I don't think you read the report very carefully, this is a huge misinterpretation of the report you claim to have read. Therefore since you don't understand some of the basic facts in the report, your analysis is also lacking accordingly.

Regarding the "case closed" report, yes the year is wrong for the dummies, they were years after Roswell. But Marcel and other witnesses didn't report any bodies in the debris field. So the dummies/bodies not being in 1947 goes both ways right? There's no evidence of dummies in 1947 in the "case closed" report, but is there any evidence that the bodies (or dummies) were actually found in 1947? Certainly not by Marcel who was a key witness.

There are many unknown variables about the Roswell case that are interesting. From posts there are many who cite some kind of reverse engineering of some other countries designs as a possible cause. Reverse engineering for the purposes of warfare has gone on for thousands of years. I forget which culture, but one even modeled the trireme ship from wreckage found. So reverse engineering is not a new phenomenon among engineers. Even the cipher machine used on nazi submarines known as the enigma machine was reverse engineered overnight by polish engineers then sent back to germany, the whole thing was an accident. So reverse engineering all in all is nothing new to warrant the degree of coverup seen with the roswell incident. Great suggestions and that japanese plane idea is a new one to me, would love to read up on that, if anyone has a link. Those reverse engineered projects are all declassified so reverse engineering is not some field of expertise given special treatment. Also if it was some type of saucer craft, much of that work is declassified, not to mention it was not successful so there is no need to go to the extreme of posting front page news articles. even if it was some saucer craft they had real pilots, not unmanned space craft. The air force keeps track of pilots and astronauts who die in tests so they wouldnt go to this extreme to cover it up when it goes with the job if you can follow me there.

Yes I read the report weather balloon is given in there if you read it and later expanded on into project mogul. Either way their explanations still do not add up we can all agree. Show me one report of a sailing ship using their sails or a any balloon that somehow defied the wind and ended up 100s of miles in a headwind, oh I would love to see this. or even a recreation of it on mythbusters.

Something strange happened out there. They sent out one guy to this farm, he didnt even know why he was going. Scientists just lose things then they send one guy with no connection to these top secret projects to find out about it? This is not likely they would send a random guy instead of someone with the security clearances to be overseeing these projects. If all these projects went rogue at the same time then they would be combing the desert like spaceballs so to speak and all those scientists would have been blackballed.

Using peoples memories is difficult to rely on. This is why I try to avoid witness testimony about what was there and what they say. Real life tangible evidence or memories built from corresponding accounts on tangible items is intriguing. This officer I remmember he went toa diner and showed off this material. Some kind of metal that could reform in shape and could not be cut. This is something tangible that many people saw. New textiles and materials are always being developed. When they are and their brand new people never go running around say when nomex or kevlar were invented and couldnt wrap their minds around this. Noone at the time called these technologies alien or other worldly. Their in the realm of possibility for all people. The officer marcel was a military intelligence officer not some backwoods kook who would go around seeing new things like tvs and call them spirit boxes. his knowledge and experience and common sense didnt square with this piece of metal that he found. This speaks volumes to me about the source of it being alien. When polysynthetic fibers were used in clothing 20 ro 30 years ago people did not go running for the hills and bellbottoms or plastic tupperware never gave people pause to blame aliens for their origins even though they had never seen the materials before. The reason is because the textiles and materials their being presented with are not any kind of signifigant jump from anything that currently existed. Even with Marcels experience as an intelligence officer seeing all kinds of machines and materials, this metal he observed stood out to him in some way. This element was foreign to him so much so that he pulled out a knife to cut it and showed it to other people. These statements are supported by soem kind of physical evidence, an evidence that is now missing. Those balloons were not made of a textile that was impermeable to a blade. Even ones that were more durable can be cut. You dont need a samurai sword with steel folded 200 times to cut this stuff. Anyone saying otherwise has no working knowledge of textile engineering. This leaves us with Marcel finding something that is extraordinary, on top of the fact he was clueless as to what it could be and noone knew until he told them about it. All of this doesnt add up. Something incredible happened there, and at this point i suspect the truth of the matter will be something stranger than fiction.

Regarding the "case closed" report, yes the year is wrong for the dummies, they were years after Roswell. But Marcel and other witnesses didn't report any bodies in the debris field. So the dummies/bodies not being in 1947 goes both ways right? There's no evidence of dummies in 1947 in the "case closed" report, but is there any evidence that the bodies (or dummies) were actually found in 1947? Certainly not by Marcel who was a key witness.

Project High Dive (the Air Force's claimed source for the dummies) didn't even start until five years after the Roswell incident. The AF's claim, was that people's memories were confusing the two events... (which is a stretch, even for a skeptic)... They would have been better off not addressing the bodies.

Marcel and Brazel were associated with one crash site, whereas in looking at all of the accounts and evidence, there appear to have been two crash sites, with a larger piece of debris, and the bodies, found at the second crash site. This also matches the Ramey memo, which mentions this, and corroborates with other witness accounts.

In addition, Brazel was once quoted as responding to the question of "little green men" by saying "they weren't green"....indicating that during his days of being detained by the military, he was at least informed about the bodies (no doubt, so that if he came upon any on the ranch grounds)....

As for Mogul, the MISSION of the project, not the materials, was classified, so there wouldn't have been a need to find an off-course balloon. More than balloons, there was a Rawin target deflector, and small sensor package, that was part of flight 4.

There are however, many problems with Mogul. The timeline for flight 4 only works if you accept Brazel's recanted testimony after being held by the military (and a shiny new pickup)... There was far too much debris in the field to be Mogul. The witnesses would have easily been able to identify balsa wood, foil paper, etc. and the debris was described as having unusual properties by multiple witnesses (wouldn't burn, cut, etc., memory type metal). The final nail in the coffin is that we wouldn't have flown the debris to bases known for their expertise in foreign war materiel, if it was OURS....

It's still a mystery what was recovered there...but whatever it was, it wasn't ours, and has needed to remain classified for over half a century...so with that....it certainly narrows down the choices....

Originally posted by Mr_skepticc
While I appreciate your logic, and well thought out ideas on this long debated event, I have to say the one thing I disagree with you on the most is when you said "These explanations given are claims that are just as wild as UFO claims if not moreso." That would be a little more so than the other. The idea that an alien race visiting planet earth, whether than or for thousands of years is so over the top, so more unbelievable than man could walk on the sun.

I do believe something happen at Roswell, I believe it relates to more of a top secret spying tool the U.S was developing. Yes! They may have lost where it went, the equipment they used to monitor those things at the time was not very good, and with a major thunder storm reported that night it was very possible they lost the thing.

I think roswell may have been a method of historical prospecive which means that even if the millitary came out and said what happen today who would belive it ? The united states has lost its crediblity over the last 10 years with wars . Anything they say from now on will always be questioned





[edit on 10-5-2010 by AndersonLee]

reply to post by kc dakota


Let' start with the agreement that something happened at Roswell (near Roswell actually) Lt. Col Phillip Corso's accounting in his book " The day after Roswell" is one of the most enlightning books on this topic. Coming from a retired military man and a long and distinguished career. His honesty (from the military' point of view) is amazing and believeble. He was in charge of handling the artifacts obtained from the crash and finding first of all a military benefit, second civillian uses. His explanation of the need for coverup is undeniable considering the political enviroment of the day. This book released in 1998 is a major disclosure on this highly secretive event in American history.

all you have to do is watch the movie roswell.. they tell you exactly what happened.. part of the disinformation program is to show you the truth..

What happened at Roswell, I don't really know but whatever did happen it was enough to release new excuses one after the other and to rubbish one of their own at the start out.

It's a balloon, nope, it's a different balloon, now it's chimps, oops no it's dummies etc etc etc.

Something BIG happened there, one day I hope we find out exactly what, a lot of people seemed to have paid very heavily for what was found. Maybe one day we will be able to put their souls to rest..

Roswell the facts:

1. On the evening of 2 July 1947 a bright, disc-shaped object was seen flying over Roswell, New Mexico, heading north-west.

2. The following day widely scattered wreckage was discovered about seventy-five miles north-west of Roswell by a local ranch manager, William Brazel, together with his son and daughter.

3. n arrival at an intermediate stop at Carswell Army Air Forces Base, Fort Worth, Texas (headquarters of the Eight Air Force), General Roger Ramey took charge and ordered Marcel and others on the plane not to talk to reporters.

4. an official press statement was released, authorised by Colonel William Blanchard, confirming that the wreckage of a flying disc had been recovered.

5. The unidentified wreckage, scattered over an area three-quarters of a mile long by several hundred feet wide, consisted of various types of material, which according to Major Marcel was like nothing he had seen before or since:

6. "There was all kinds of stuff - small beams about three eights or a half inch square with some sort of hieroglyphics on them

7. one piece of metal foil, two feet long and a foot wide, was so durable that it could not be dented with a sledgehammer, despite its being incredibly light.

8. Leading investigators Bill Moore and Stanton Friedman have interviewed no less than ninety-two witnesses who provide information about this sensational incident, of who thirty were involved with the discovery, recovery or subsequent official cover-up, and ten of the original witnesses have identified the object as non-terrestrial in origin.



These are a few of the relevant facts to the event, something happened thats for certain. I myself have looked in to this event very deeply indeed and there is no doubt in my mind that something occurred involving something of such highly classified importance that even those in very high up places did not have access to. I am 100% convinced that what happened involved something not of this earth.

Please do your own research before brushing this off as a weather balloon exercise. There is much more to this event than something crashing, the fact that new level of secrecy barriers were implemented because of this event should tell you that it wasn't a weather balloon. Also the people who were at the scene and involved in the clear up of this have been shown to be lying through their teeth, they know but they can't speak about it.

Lastly, Lets not forget the people that were 'taken out' because they either knew to much or they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. To many needless deaths all in the name of power and war. RIP

Lieutenant Walter Hauts death bed confession:

Haut then tells how Colonel Blanchard took him to 'Building 84' - one of the hangars at Roswell - and showed him the craft itself. He describes a metallic egg-shaped object around 12-15ft in length and around 6ft wide. He said he saw no windows, wings, tail, landing gear or any other feature.

www.ufocasebook.com...


[edit on 10-5-2010 by franspeakfree]

Roswell is no fiction. Get your feet down to the ground please.

Originally posted by Mclaneinc


What happened at Roswell, I don't really know but whatever did happen it was enough to release new excuses one after the other and to rubbish one of their own at the start out.

It's a balloon, nope, it's a different balloon, now it's chimps, oops no it's dummies etc etc etc.

Something BIG happened there, one day I hope we find out exactly what, a lot of people seemed to have paid very heavily for what was found. Maybe one day we will be able to put their souls to rest..

The behavior by TPTB coming is reminiscent of a ten year old child who did something wrong. Rather then ever admit to the truth out of fear of imminent justice, they simply continue making up more and more elaborate excuses.

reply to post by Mr_skepticc


I don't want this to sound like an attack on you, but your name is Mr. Skeptic. Come into these debates about alien life with an open mind free of preconceived idea. Don't come into these debates with the attitude "I'm a skeptic I don't believe anything you say because I'm on the other side of the fence" This life we live is a dream friend, it is not at all ridiculous that other intelligent beings are here and have been here in the past.
That's limited and linear thinking and your wasting your intelligent mind thinking like that.

There is alot of talk that disclosure would be a dangerous thing. Much of this is in reference to a Nasa recommendation that if intelligent life was discovered it would cause the downfall of our society.

Roswell however refutes this point. The military itself through its won press releases real or not, purport to the capture of a flying disc and the realization of aliens. Society at this time did not collapse, families did not dissolve, and wall street did not crash. Therefore it can be safe to dismiss the assumption that society would crumble due to typical americans not being able to handle the news.

Originally posted by Mr_skepticc
I do believe something happen at Roswell, I believe it relates to more of a top secret spying tool the U.S was developing. Yes! They may have lost where it went, the equipment they used to monitor those things at the time was not very good, and with a major thunder storm reported that night it was very possible they lost the thing.

But that doesn't explain the multiple eyewitness accounts of short, humanoid bodies being found amongst the wreckage that was strewn about. Nor does it explain the reports of I-beams with heiroglyphics inscribed on them.

reply to post by tigpoppa


One of my observations is that if it was a Project Mogul balloon, the AAF would of used normal means to dispose or replace the equipment in use. None of the equipment itself was classified, just what the project itself did. The debris would of been handled through the normal base supply procedure, not be flown quickly to Ft Worth, then to Wright-Patterson AAF.

Also, there would not of been a need to notify flag officers of this during the Fourth of July holidays, as the Deputy Commander Maintenance (DCM) would of been the highest rank at the base in charge of getting the debris sorted through.

The more I look at this case, the more questions pop up.

Everyone, the more you entertain the sketical minded people, the easier it is to sway off track. of the entire thread, which, in some instances is the agenda of these members.

Would it not be better to post the FACTS that you have researched of the event and let members make up their own minds.

For example,

1. Thousands of German POWs were held in Roswell during World War II,

2. White Sands Missile Range, near Alamogordo, NM, is only about 150 +/- from Roswell, NM.

3. Los Alamos National Laboratory, where the Atomic Bomb was created by scientists in secret is north of Roswell, NM.

4. Major Marcel showed some of it to his wife and son. He then returned to the airfield in Roswell. Dr. Jesse Marcel Jr., Major Marcel’s son, would later describe this debris to investigators.

5. The Army changes it’s story for the first time. The day after the initial story,

6. The Air Force decides to reopen the Roswell case in 1994. The 1994 report is entitled “The Roswell Report: Fact versus Fiction in the New Mexico Desert.”

7. The Air Force puts out a fourth explanation. In 1997,

8. The Air force says that the bodies seen on the gorund were dummies - This is very important because it goes to show that there were dummy like figures on the ground that eyewitnesses saw, don't forget first of all that those eyewitnesses were treated like fools and ridiculed until the dummy story developed.

[edit on 10-5-2010 by franspeakfree]

reply to post by kidflash2008


Lets not forget the fact that they flew the debris to Ft Worth Texas for examination. Why would they have done that with all the security if it had been one of their prototypes?

Originally posted by MAC269
reply to post by FireMoon

 

Dear FireMoon

From FireMoon “Now this is where, as a sound engineer myself, I have a problem and would love to know how they managed to circumvent said problem. You drape a microphone off of a balloon at great heights and most of the noise you will hear is wind noise. The chances of "hearing" a Russian Nuclear test, to my mind would be somewhere between, very little and errr well, one white duck on your wall.”

Sorry to upset you here but a balloon is carried by the wind and therefore has no wind noise. You are at peace in a windless environment. Sorry about that.

I was considering that. I think that you would still get noises of other sources anyway and that the strength of the project would depend on the ability to clean the signal after the fact. Supposedly the ability to pick up a shock-wave at that height is much greater than at ground level. I would not be able to tell you what happens at that altitude, I do know that with *today's* technology, as long as you have some minimum amount of signal you can do a pretty good job of cleaning up the noise if you know what signal you are looking for, and if all you care about is flagging the timeline with "nuclear test here, nuclear test there" as opposed to recovering a high quality recording. But that of course requires at least some minimum amount of signal mixed with the noise.

But at any rate, even if we are able to prove mogul feasible that does not prove that mogul was indeed what crashed at Roswell.

And if we were to conclude that it is unfeasible, that does not necessarily mean that it would not be attempted, because a lot of totally impractical crazy ideas are attempted all the time, just before the projects get cancelled.

So, if what crashed in Roswell was mogul, then the official story is true, but there is no way to verify it, and if what crashed in Roswell was not mogul, and it was merely a cover-up, then one would expect that the mogul story was based on a true project so that when people start fact checking the story pans out as true. In other words, I don't think checking mogul for feasibility helps resolve the mystery.

-rrr

reply to post by franspeakfree


And as I have asked, why would they have flown it to Ft Worth in the first place? The materials used for the balloons and the Project Mogul sensors were not classified at all, and would of been put through the usual supply methods and normal security measures.

The fact that they flew the debris to Wright-Patterson means it was more than a weather balloon.