Roswell Case Closed: what really happened

Originally posted by MAC269
reply to post by FireMoon

 

Dear FireMoon

From FireMoon “Now this is where, as a sound engineer myself, I have a problem and would love to know how they managed to circumvent said problem. You drape a microphone off of a balloon at great heights and most of the noise you will hear is wind noise. The chances of "hearing" a Russian Nuclear test, to my mind would be somewhere between, very little and errr well, one white duck on your wall.”

Sorry to upset you here but a balloon is carried by the wind and therefore has no wind noise. You are at peace in a windless environment. Sorry about that.

Sorry, like to explain how , if for instance, a Balloon is travelling in a westerly wind of say, 50 mph and yet manages to puick up no noise across the tiny diaphragm. When, in reality, if the microphone was worthy of carrying, it would pick up the slightest whisper of wind and amplify it by a huge amount. I don't think you actually understand the mechanism you are trying to explain. Winds aren't constant, the slightest gust, caused by varying pockets of air pressure, would sound like someone rubbing sandpaper with wood. That why they put these suckers on microphones for outside recording.

I don't think Roswell will ever be resolved, unless we have true disclosure. If you think about this from the U.S. government perspective, if was an alien spaceship, you would definitely want to cover it up, else the rest of the world would demand access to the technology. If its not an alien space ship, but, there is enough smoke going up that it was, why clear it up, when you can have the rest of the world concerned you have technology that they don't. If its the first, the U.S. won't tell until true disclosure. If its the second, its pretty hard to back out of that position after 60 years. Now that almost everyone is dead from that era, it is easy enough for the government to say the records are gone. As a result, we will debate this forever.

Personally, I don't believe actual live aliens are here on earth or have ever been here. However, I do believe that other intelligent life forms have sent exploration probes here, some of which are the reported UFOs. Its possible this could have been one of them, but, we will probably never know for sure.

www.youtube.com...

Just illustrate the point take listen to the these guys parachuting.

reply to post by FireMoon


Dear FireMoon

I bow to your experience as a sound engineer as regards microphones as I have no experience at all.

However I have sailed with the wind and too my ears there is no noise.

That is not to say that Project Mogul is not entirely dubious in the first place but then so many crake pot ideas where.

reply to post by FireMoon


Dear FireMoon

By parachuting you are falling through the air creating your own wind to the tune of about a 130MPH

Here is my take on Roswell (delete after reading):

The New Mexico desert after WWII is used for top secret military research activity. It is a vast, sparsely populated expanse of nothing where virtually anything can get done with little recognition. The atom bomb was born there and VERY smart scientists were whisked away there from abroad and given money, opportunity, and amnesty. It is also a place of God fearing patriots, steeped in superstition and Native American culture, so much the better.

The US government wants to close the Roswell case for a big reason. If people keep poking around New Mexico they are going to find out things that were done there that can not be conveniently covered up with 1950s era declassified security documents. This is bad because there are still covert operations happening there 60 years later.

The report that the OP mentions, the case-closed report on Roswell, is able to provide credible closure by claiming the testimony of witnesses are the result of multiple secret projects (Mogul for one) occurring over several years, confused and combined into one event.

The problem with the classic Roswell news story should be obvious though. Consider the typical UFO eyewitness account at face value. Maybe it was a bright light, saucer, or triangle. It made some sound or not; had a particular behavior. Most skeptics are willing to concede that the observer saw something, but do not necessarily agree with what the observer may claim is the explanation, if one is given. Regardless of what the witness believes is being observed, the visual representation is accepted as somewhat accurate and even consistent if multiple observers witness the event. So, UFO is observed (balloon, swamp gas, hubcap, starship), and a subjective mental association is made.

One might therefore wonder why the Roswell newspaper headline read something to the effect that a crashed disk had been found. Why a disk? If a rancher came upon debris on his land, given his general knowledge of the day, what would he know? He most certainly wouldn't know what the state of the art in material science (mylar) was, but he would know the difference between shapes: a disk, balloon, or angular radar reflector. So why a disk?

Well, now we come to one of those strange moments of wild unpredictable synchronicity. The US military used the UFO phenomenon both to keep track of the public's awareness of its black projects, and as a means of counterintelligence aimed at the Soviets, ally intel agencies, and WORSE, its own military and diverse intel infrastructure. In the case of Roswell, the lies turned around and bit them.

What rancher Mack Brazel saw was in fact a wrecked flying disk. But the cover story of Project Mogul, should it ever be compromised, was - wait for it - a flying saucer. So a cattle rancher finds wreckage, the base commander, Col. Blanchard, pulls out the play book for the only black project he is privy to and it says call it a saucer. Unfortunately, it is a saucer. When Gen. Ramey, who has knowledge of another black project, finds out about the story and the evidence, he has a fit and there is a scramble to retract the story. Everybody will buy a weather balloon but it can not, by any means, be described as a DISK.

The US government has done a lot of questionable things to its citizens and its brave soldiers, with or without motive. Think of the admitted Bomb tests and biologic experiments. The Air Force used Project Mogul and High Dive as a means to cover up things it can't come clean on. Think of the history of some of the scientists brought to New Mexico. Think of what Von Braun was able to do with the Apollo space program. What did the other scientists do? There may have been other wondrous success stories that people might really not be as proud about. Case closed.

DE

I still say that whatever crashed in Roswell was some sort of test flight of Nazi technology that we received after project paperclip.

reply to post by -Blackout-


Dear -Blackout-

So considering that everybody knows about Project Paper Clip, Wernher Magnus Maximilian Freiherr von Braun etc,.

Why by Gods little apples would Roswell still be a secret.

reply to post by -Blackout-


I agree with you. But there is nothing, and I mean NOTHING about having an aircraft that looks like a flying saucer so special. Flying saucers don't fly well and without computers to keep them flying, are a deathtrap for a pilot.

But what if the flying saucer was somehow linked to another project, even tenuously, that could not under any circumstances be made public? What if that project continues to this day and violates international treaties and general ethics?

What if it has nothing to do at all with ET? If it is so significant that it can not be stopped because of fear that other governments are doing it as well, how could it be covered up? The UFO phenomenon is a really good scapegoat. A radical (now low tech) flying machine may have been considered a psych-war vector for a really nasty viable weapon, when its intended strategic purpose turned out to be aerodynamically impossible.

DE

reply to post by desert_eagle


Dear desert_eagle

I think that with the last ten years of history that the American government is caperable of just about anything, so I will take that as a given.

However they are all dead now anyone who was in power back then.

We all know about the Nazi boffins we even know about the Japanese boffins from Unit 731 in Matura with these disgusting facts what else do you think could still be being covered up.

This is 63 years on there is no one alive from TPTB of that time.

I know this for a fact Roswell was something spectacular and it was not Nazi based.

If you except that then it points to something from somewhere else. Or at least no one has come up with anything else that is in any way credible.

reply to post by desert_eagle


Dear desert_eagle

What other governments the Russians?? Back in 1947 yes ok but not now not for at least ten years.

“UFO phenomenon is a really good scapegoat” Yes agreed but in this case it would appear that is what they are trying to hide to this day.

Originally posted by MAC269
reply to post by -Blackout-

 

Dear -Blackout-

So considering that everybody knows about Project Paper Clip, Wernher Magnus Maximilian Freiherr von Braun etc,.

Why by Gods little apples would Roswell still be a secret.

this is where the arguments posed by skeptics fall apart. they reach at these straws and create these fantasies in their own minds. In psychology they refer to these mythological creations as "delusions of grandeur", where the patient assumes some truth known only to them, to be real even though it defies all known logic even when confronted by the therapist, or for sake of argument a poster in this forum. All in all though, a skeptic is still reaching for an explanation in the same way that believers do. Psychologically we all look for answers to questions. Religion answers many of these questions for people, nothing wrong with that. In this situation many skeptics and believers have faith in an idea like a religion. the skeptics have faith that their assumptions are correct, while believers share this same idea from a different perspective. Whats astonishing is that commonality shared by skeptics and believers. This type of belief in an unknown is a simple fight or flight response to an unknown. Based upon a persons upbringing and environment they will create in their own mind what they think is true, regardless of facts, and even in the face of facts. Afterall it was skeptics who killed socrates and basically put galileo in his grave more or less.

the nazi flying saucer idea was always bunk as the project idea. It would be no big deal if it was discovered that something crashed based on designs from germany. Even all the specials on the history and science channels about the development of the space shuttle include the work of german scientists. so their work is declassified. As for having some playbook for conspiracies, there is no evidence of any such playbook. Compared to the stuff we do like dropping bombs to test the effects on soldiers, that is the purpose to test the results on those soldiers. US soldiers are used as guinea pigs routinely. Its a great way to sample a group or strata of individuals since all of their characteristics from gender, height, and age are all carefully cataloged. Their us government property and weather they die in a war zone or for science, their still heroes. Also many of those projects such as the atomic bombs and some things we do with the military now is declassified. Even tests on civilians regarding radiation and other types of drugs are public now. But the gravity of us declassifying how we use the armed forces and the american public as guinea pigs is public knowledge. The fact that the deaths of civilians and soldiers are public, but roswell is still covered up only heightens the unique scenario that roswell presents us with that is still classified. as i see from the interest here, skeptics love the idea of what projects it could have been just as passionately as the believers who propose that it was a UFO. Both are fantastic and just as interesting to think about.

edit- Nobody calls the space shuttle a nazi machine, yet its made by the same people(german scientists) WITH OUR PEOPLE(american scientists). America funded and built the space shuttle, germans worked with american scientists. I always thought of this as how science doesnt have borders, its about the expansion of knowledge. Science always wants to answer EVERYTHING, why is the sky blue, the grass green yadda yadda yadda, here german and american scientists, 2 cultures that were just killing eachother in trenches over an inch of dirt for the last few years, came together to work towards a single scientific goal, I have always loved this story!!!

[edit on 10-5-2010 by tigpoppa]

Originally posted by MAC269
reply to post by -Blackout-

 

Dear -Blackout-

So considering that everybody knows about Project Paper Clip, Wernher Magnus Maximilian Freiherr von Braun etc,.

Why by Gods little apples would Roswell still be a secret.

Because the Government only lets out what information that they wanna let out.

Its like Project Bluebook being a whitewash. It was more or less created to satisfy the public that that they were investigating the UFO phenomenon when in fact, all of the real stories were put elsewhere in some top secret case file and never saw the light of day in Bluebook.

reply to post by tigpoppa


Dear tigpoppa

I have no problem with Skeptics, since in many cases that is exactly what I am.

Roswell however is profound in ever respect.

It quite simply means that since 1947 and maybe well before we are living in a world with two realities. That being the case the two realities diverge with every passing hour.

You may have noted that no where I have said that I believed that Roswell was ET, only that it was pointing in that direction. However what ever it was it is still secret and that really bugs the hell out of me.

reply to post by MAC269


MAC269,

First of all, everybody on ATS will probably admit that they don't know everything. I am one of them. Everything I say should be taken as speculation unless proven otherwise.

Second, I am a patriot. My government does a lot of foul things but I believe there are people like me, and you, that truly want the best for its citizens.

There is something else about Roswell that I believed tipped the scales and invoked a major reaction from the military and the government. It's another unfortunate coincidence for both.

The Nazis were conducting experiments on many innocent, defenseless human victims. It is easy to blame them because they are, in most folks' eyes, evil. However, there is also the data that acquired through their work that may have verified what any scientist might be curious about. It is easy to imagine an eager US military on a Luftwaffe treasure hunt. But that's not so bad because airplanes are machines and who would fault any government for improving its military weaponry.

Experimenting on human beings doesn't get the same congeniality. It is bad no matter who you talk to. Nevertheless, the data was there right? And the Nazi scientists didn't ALL come to the US right? So if the US government initially drew the line because of obvious ethical reasons, what if another government didn't draw the line? What if the Soviets were thinking the exact same thing about the US?

I am not going any farther with this or why I think the way I do. Just imagine though - and this is wild fantasy - speculation - what if a disk crashed in Roswell and there were bodies recovered. What if the bodies were not from outer space but didn't look human? Where did they come from? Why might they be there? What advantage might that have if the disk came down in another country? Would there be a tactical advantage in bringing in a completely unknown entity, with a deadly payload, maybe thereby causing tremendous damage? Who would get blamed?

Maybe, just maybe, the entity didn't live long and couldn't communicate. That would be acceptable for quite a while. But what if, as science progressed, they might be more useful? Then what would the mission be? You wouldn't want that to get out right? In fact, the longer the timeline, the more useful the project would become.

DE

reply to post by -Blackout-


Dear -Blackout-

From -Blackout- “Because the Government only lets out what information that they wanna let out.

Its like Project Bluebook being a whitewash. It was more or less created to satisfy the public that that they were investigating the UFO phenomenon when in fact, all of the real stories were put elsewhere in some top secret case file and never saw the light of day in Bluebook.”

Agreed 100% so why would you after 63 years believe it had anything to do with PPC. The Nazis where ahead of the US in some things yes but only by a few years not hundreds or thousands of years.

In 1947 a computer was the size on a building and millions of USD now toddlers use them.

reply to post by desert_eagle


Dear desert_eagle

From desert_eagle “Experimenting on human beings doesn't get the same congeniality. It is bad no matter who you talk to. Nevertheless, the data was there right? And the Nazi scientists didn't ALL come to the US right? So if the US government initially drew the line because of obvious ethical reasons, what if another government didn't draw the line? What if the Soviets were thinking the exact same thing about the US?

I am not going any farther with this or why I think the way I do. Just imagine though - and this is wild fantasy - speculation - what if a disk crashed in Roswell and there were bodies recovered. What if the bodies were not from outer space but didn't look human? Where did they come from? Why might they be there? What advantage might that have if the disk came down in another country? Would there be a tactical advantage in bringing in a completely unknown entity, with a deadly payload, maybe thereby causing tremendous damage? Who would get blamed?

Maybe, just maybe, the entity didn't live long and couldn't communicate. That would be acceptable for quite a while. But what if, as science progressed, they might be more useful? Then what would the mission be? You wouldn't want that to get out right? In fact, the longer the timeline, the more useful the project would become..”

I think I am getting your point, however we know about project paper clip.
We Know about the same sort of involvement with Unit 731 by the Japanese.
We know about MK Ultra via the CIA.

All these things are old news and most are dead that where in the position of TPTB.

If you want me to believe that there is something else that could be still connected to Roswell you are going to have to come clean about what you suspect.

That is too bad they had to cover it up. Kind of makes you wonder. They couldn't handle telling people, "No!! You can't have this technology!" But they had to be cowards and hide it.

In 2010, we would think technology as the reason for the cover up.

But in 1947, wouldn't the cover up be due to fear and reaction of the public?

They didn't understand how to back engineer for years, correct?

But now people say (on ATS) we are being conditioned for (an official) Disclosure.

What is the oldest mothership sighting, or mile long/giant UFO?

Is there a connection?

reply to post by MAC269


MAC269,

I suspect that there are two separate, completely compartmentalized projects in 1947 (+-) that were dismal failures. I say failure because the projects did not, at that time, meet their lofty goals.

Aircraft: there was a series of black project aircraft at that time that might be considered a "flying saucer" to any reasonable person not involved in the project. Most of them crashed because they were just awful despite the "wow" factor. One can imagine a young test pilot in 1950 going home to his wife all wide eyed and excited about his new "job." But he quickly asks his wife if they have enough life insurance.

Biology: there was a series of Nazi experiments on human (and nonhuman entities btw) on everything from super soldiers to the Master Race. They were dismal failures in that they were either fatal or disabling. Yet the data was recorded and lessons learned.

Compartmentalization: neither management group knew of the other.

Serendipity: an individual tasked with developing offensive weapons systems had access to both program files. As both were failures alone, the two could be successful together. In fact, the vehicle SHOULD crash and the crew SHOULD die.

Aside: if an flying vehicle landed in your backyard with a deadly consequence (insert consequence here) who would you blame? If it was made of earthly stuff, aluminum, steel, etc., you could probably narrow down the origin right? What if it there was a Coca Cola can in the wreckage? What if the pilot was wearing Nikes? I am just having fun here but you get the point right? There would be traces, clues of origin? So you would want to make all the usual tells not so usual! You wouldn't need a live crew or a particularly good flying machine. All you need is untraceable wreckage and a dire consequence.

DE

Guys, 63 years and not one solid piece of evidence, nothing but stories told that were paid for years ago. I have studied, researched and read everything I could find over Roswell due to the fact my father was a believer, and I made him a promise before he died to open my mind to the possability of aliens crashing.

Think of watergate, think of the Clinton's scandals, now if the president can't even hide some tapes, or hide the fact he had an affair in the oval office, how do you hide the fact that an alien space craft crashed. There was many, many troops out picking up that garbage, now we have heard the few who sold their little story; however, what about all the ones who have come forward saying it was just military crap garbage they picked up.

They have been digging out there, studying out there, taking ground samples, and every kind of sample you could dream of for years, and not 1 piece of evidence. There comes a time when you must understand that people, especially when grouped can tell some amazing stories. Combine the story telling with age (senior citizens) and it will always come across as more geniune. Hollywood has taught us that some people can create and tell some of the most amazing stories (Forest Gump, Seven, or even War Of The Worlds) but it doesn't make them true, it makes them incredible stories told.

Now we can go all the way back to even the bible about great stories told. They are only believed by the ones who have faith, and thats exactly what we go into when talking about ufo's and aliens. It is turning into some sort of strange religion to the believers, its almost as if they have now figured out theres a good chance Jesus isn't going to save them, so well, we got to find some way of hopeing theres an after life. Show me some evidence, something physical, anything but some old guys story and I will fight beside you with every breath I take so I can full fill a promise to an old man I love more than anything on this planet I will ever find other than my children.

[edit on 10-5-2010 by Mr_skepticc]