athiests! why christianity?, page 3

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by faceoff85

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We though, as humans have empathy, compassion and love and you only have to look around and at history to show that religion has caused war, corruption and hatred towards fellow human beings.

I agree with you here... if religion as a whole would be taken out of the picture I think its safe to say this world would be a better place. Although there would probably be other reasons to wage war as this site likes to theorize the oilindustry as a suitable justification for mass murder

I'm not going to oppose an Agnostic's belief because to be honest, everyone should be Agnostic (including me), because simply: "we just don't know" but i am highly skeptical, and i don't think these "beliefs" or religions provide me with anything that would help me live my life any better.

I am going to disagree on this. I've had this talk with lots of people. ultimately there are 2 possible outcomes to my faith. either I am deadwrong and this world wont end by the hands of god or the bible is right and the scenario I predict does happen. if it doesn't, what would that leave me with? a morally just and clean life (I hope:roll without a whole lot of banging around, snorting coke and/or spending my days drunk. you name it. offcourse this is an extreme point of view but its the other side of this extreme that you should focus on. the point here is that I'd have lead a socially acceptable life. If it does turn out to be true and god does end up turning the tables on mankind I'd have secured my position in the future. If you look at it this way it is mostly a win/win. offcourse you cant really state it this black and white since there is a whole lot more to the equasion but again I think you will get the point.

reply to post by faceoff85

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Appreciate your views

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by faceoff85

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I'm not sure if your screwing around and being a bigot, or if your just uneducated in the Qur'an. With that said, the Qur'an teaches the value of life just as much as the bible teaches.

Well my specialty lies in the bible but I have in fact done some homework on other religions as well as have tons of discussions with my muslim friends so educated is stretching it but I am a bit knowledgeable.

The Qur’an says about the prohibition of murder, (…Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.) (Al-An`am 6: 151) and Allah says in the Qur’an, (Nor take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)) (Al-Israa’ 17: 33). According to the Qur’an, killing any person without a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity and saving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the whole humanity.

I understand what you are trying to get across but my point lies specifically in the above mentioned laws for wich there would be reason to kill. The way I learned it is that the bible condemns us for any type of violence under any circumstances. the old testament did in fact by law decree that certain people under certain conditions were to be slain but the new testament learns that we living today should not do that anymore... those times ended when Jesus sacrificed himself. I could start throwing with bibleverses but lets not
Now from what I learned about the quran is that there are laws wich ALL people should abide to. and if not, depending on what has been done, the quran teaches that breaking certain laws should be punished by death. If I am wrong pleace correct me since I do not wish to spread wrong info. This was the point I tried to make clear.

Point of fact is, I'm trying to correct an error in your argument. You can't just claim one group of people are not true to their religion for using choice verses out of context and then claim another group for doing the same thing are just doing what their religion "teaches" when both religions equally teach the same message of 'thou shalt not murder'.

Very true. So I humbly accept you correcting me.

If you were unaware that Islam is a peaceful religion, then I'm sorry for calling you a bigot.

I know to little about the quran to make that assesment except for my own experiences, and lets just say I'd chose a muslim neighbour over a christian one ANY DAY!!!! if only, for the fact that I love to mow my lawn on sunday

Case in point, both religion have adherents of them that use choice verses to justify acts of terrorism and killing. No amount of sweeping under the rug is going to change that. You should make it a point to study various religions before making claims against them. I'm not sure if your Christian or not, I don't remember you saying so outright, but if you are then your a perfect example for why Christians get picked on. In this case, making an uneducated and intolerant claim towards another religion that teaches the same message.

But the point I am trying to make is that people who do the abovementioned... can they truly be called believers? I mean religion can be interpreted so many ways but what would a deity who teaches love, think of his followers using his message to justify murder?

[edit on 8-5-2010 by faceoff85]

[edit on 8-5-2010 by faceoff85]

reply to post by the illuminator

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Well for me at least the reason I am so vehemently opposed to Christianity is that I was raised in it as a kid. I was brought up in a fundamentalist family where the Bible was considered the perfect word of a perfect God. I bought that line hook line and sinker as a kid but as I got older and started asking questions for which the Bible had no answer (certainly no satisfactory one) I realized that it wasn't the end all be all book, it wasn't perfect.

Eventually I came to see the religion for what it was, ignorance. Like most religions Christianity is based on what we don't know and it attempts to explain the unknown through elaborate myth. Now let me clarify that the type of Christianity I'm opposed to is mainly fundamentalism; I have no issue with the average normal believer. But fundamentalists and creationists who put Biblical myths forward as absolute truth are either deceiving themselves or attempting to deceive others.

The fact is the Bible isn't perfect and I'm pretty sure a perfect God could write a perfect book if he/she/it wanted to. Losing my faith was no quick process, it took years of research and thought to realize that even if there was a God that wouldn't make the Bible true. If there is a God out there somewhere in this vast cosmos I think he/she/it wants us to question our beliefs. If we don't question what we are told is the truth than how do we know it is the truth? Blind faith should not be the requirement of a religion because that is tantamount to ignorance, it's slapping a "God did it" label on the whole Universe and closing your mind to the possibilities.

[edit on 8-5-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

reply to post by K J Gunderson

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hehehe... I was afraid of that...

well I guess I should start out with explaining that in the times before Jesus Christ's sacrifice, whenever people had comitted a sin they had to pay... for small sins a sacrifice of an animal would suffice... small sins required small sacrifices and larger sins required larger sacrifices with death being the ultimate sacrifice. The ten commandments were the LAW in those days. and some sins required death of the sinner as a sacrifice.

when Jesus died he died as a sacrifice for us humans. this meant that instead of having to bring an offering we could from then on ask god for forgiveness through god's son Jesus Christ.

still need time for the bibleverses.
nr 1: John 13:34 new commandment
nr 2: mathew 22:37-40 the greatest commandment
nr 3: 1 corinthians 11:25
nr 4:2 corinthians 5:17
the final one I'll give you is colossians 2:13-16
I can go into more detail but this is a good start.
another nice one is romans 7:6 & 7


if you want more or an explanation it might be good to open a thread or u2u me cause the subject changed a bit

[edit on 8-5-2010 by faceoff85]

reply to post by the illuminator

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I'm not christian, but with that beeing said.

In history, and the present, the word "pagan" is/was a christian term.

By definition pagan, is any religion, that is not christian.

So IMHO a singular group......in this case christians...
By labeling, anyone , not of their faith, a pagan, is not faulse.
By definition, I just find it sad that, anygroup of ppl, whether of faith, or not, to lable and make choices, that directly/indirectly affect other groups.
Seems to me to be very high School clickish.."if thats a word"

Its more the manners in which the are conveyed.

Yes I've read the bible, amongst, many othr religious beliefs.

If the run of the mill Christian , was just that...a christian, no one is taking their relgion away, or threatening it.

Personally I stay clear of religious debate.

Many church/religious groups help many ppl, and IMO even non-relgious ppl, do the same.
IMO unitl there is a unified religon, it will remain, just like any other group, hell bent and closed minded to the idea that, their understanding of their virtues, is the right way, and any other way is not of god.

My personal opnion is is that, no matter your stance on religion, my self I do not need the masses backing up claims made by, a religious group, and to use the power of the masses, to acomplish a result.

If one is so out of touch with ones virtues to need to follow, a "group"
Then IMO its not a very worthy cause.
Another way to put that is, if personal guilt, is the driving force to "right" to help others, t's ,y opio to fing youself/person values/and learning to be a good person!
Those are the things we are born with, and in most cases a large %of churchs exploit this.



Th ones, that bother me the most are the ones that say..."Oh and we have to thank god"

Please don't judge me or pick me apart for stateing, my observations!

[edit on 8-5-2010 by Doc Holiday]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

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Thankyou very much, appreciate your views and whole-heartedly agree. I think if there were more people like you and I the world would be a better place.

Peace, love and logic

Originally posted by faceoff85
reply to post by K J Gunderson

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hehehe... I was afraid of that... give me a minute and I'll edit this post with the verses.

Sorry, not a big deal. I have just seen this topic come up many times but no one has ever really made a logical case for it that I have seen so I was curious if you could or would but please, do not feel like you gotta. It is a side topic anyway so probably my bad for even asking.

reply to post by faceoff85

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Well my specialty lies in the bible but I have in fact done some homework on other religions as well as have tons of discussions with my muslim friends so educated is stretching it but I am a bit knowledgeable.

Then you've knowingly made an erroneous statement, in which case you were indeed being a bigot. Both the religions no more condones acts of killing no more than the other does. They are both religions who's core message is one of peace.

I understand what you are trying to get across but my point lies specifically in the above mentioned laws for wich there would be reason to kill. The way I learned it is that the bible condemns us for any type of violence under any circumstances. the old testament did in fact by law decree that certain people under certain conditions were to be slain but the new testament learns that we living today should not do that anymore... those times ended when Jesus sacrificed himself. I could start throwing with bibleverses but lets not
Now from what I learned about the quran is that there are laws wich ALL people should abide to. and if not, depending on what has been done, the quran teaches that breaking certain laws should be punished by death. If I am wrong pleace correct me since I do not wish to spread wrong info. This was the point I tried to make clear.

You want to throw verses? How about we cite a verse from the good man Jesus himself shall we?

Mathew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Jesus never brought a new covenant for Christians and the only mention of a new covenant in the original Hebrew bible, the one Jesus would have been reading back in the day, was in Jeremiah 31:31-34. This prophecy was for the house of Judah and Israel and makes no mention of ushering in a new law or religious offshoot called Christianity. Not to mention that ALL of the prophecies were meant only for those two houses, of which Christianity falls under neither of them.

You should read this as most Christians don't understand what the covenant was or that it is still in effect. www.livingcog.com... God also made mention that his covenant was forever, never to be broken and never to change, couple that with Jesus' own words of NOT coming to destroy that covenant and your claims of a 'new covenant that abolishes the old are unfounded.

Biblical scripture also contains many violent laws, like killing disobedient children as well, nor did Jesus abolish these laws either. Your point there is again unfounded.

Very true. So I humbly accept you correcting me.

Well, I'm sorry if I come off as if I'm trying to pick a fight, and mind you the above wasn't an attempt either. I get heated in religious debates as I've read many religious texts and learn about various religions for fun.

I know to little about the quran to make that assesment except for my own experiences, and lets just say I'd chose a muslim neighbour over a christian one ANY DAY!!!! if only, for the fact that I love to mow my lawn on sunday

Why would you choose a Muslim neighbor when you just attempted to call the Muslim faith one of violence? Your a confusing person!

But the point I am trying to make is that people who do the abovementioned... can they truly be called believers? I mean religion can be interpreted so many ways but what would a deity who teaches love, think of his followers using his message to justify murder?

Yet, those same deities also tell their followers to conduct acts of violence, like killing babies. Should we then say that the people who listened to God when he commands death are not really believers of God because God is a contradictory deity who has it set in stone that murder is a sin?

At which point are you able to justify judging the veracity of someone else' faith when you shouldn't judge others accordingly to Gods word?

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by faceoff85

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Then you've knowingly made an erroneous statement, in which case you were indeed being a bigot. Both the religions no more condones acts of killing no more than the other does. They are both religions who's core message is one of peace.

hehehe... I'll just see this as you being heated. must say you pose a great "challenger" but mind you I as well intend to keep it a friendly discussion. anyway I'll take your word for it, I havent "judged" the islam whatsoever. I do condemn whatever harm any human does to another and I recognize that the people we hear about in the news dont represent the people as a whole.

You want to throw verses? How about we cite a verse from the good man Jesus himself shall we?

Mathew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Jesus never brought a new covenant for Christians and the only mention of a new covenant in the original Hebrew bible, the one Jesus would have been reading back in the day, was in Jeremiah 31:31-34. This prophecy was for the house of Judah and Israel and makes no mention of ushering in a new law or religious offshoot called Christianity. Not to mention that ALL of the prophecies were meant only for those two houses, of which Christianity falls under neither of them.

For one... I FULLY understand both the old and new Covenant mentioned in the bible. And although its true Jesus did not throw out the 10 commandments, the same cannot be said for the way god's people interacted with god. where in the past they needed any form of blood-sacrifice in any form of worship. Be it asking for forgiveness or asking for a favor or whatever, this was undone by the PERFECT sacrifice Jesus's blood provided. God's followers were still to respect the 10 commandments but the stoneing of violators or any other form of blood-sacrifice was no longer needed since Jesus sacrificed his PERFECT blood FOR US.

Biblical scripture also contains many violent laws, like killing disobedient children as well, nor did Jesus abolish these laws either. Your point there is again unfounded.

Those laws were again part of the old testament and were indeed undone by Jesus's sacrifice. I'd like to refer you to my previous post where I give some scriptures showing the undoing of the previous covenant (note, this does not mean the 10 commandments are void. it merely means that people needn't take action to enforce them anymore)

Well, I'm sorry if I come off as if I'm trying to pick a fight, and mind you the above wasn't an attempt either. I get heated in religious debates as I've read many religious texts and learn about various religions for fun.

I have taken that into account and I see you as someone to discuss viewpoints with. nomore noless... no offence taken and please return that favor I respect your knowledge

Why would you choose a Muslim neighbor when you just attempted to call the Muslim faith one of violence? Your a confusing person!

well I believe muslims in general to be a respectfull and loving people, I live in an area with more muslims than christians and I wouldn't have it any other way. my christian brethren (the ones I know) are untrustworthy and VERY hypocritical. My muslim neighbours pose the best neighbours and friends I have had

Yet, those same deities also tell their followers to conduct acts of violence, like killing babies. Should we then say that the people who listened to God when he commands death are not really believers of God because God is a contradictory deity wh

uhmmm.... yeah to much for me there... I cant come to the same conclusion. This has been a sharpening of the blade to me. thnx

[edit on 8-5-2010 by faceoff85]

[edit on 8-5-2010 by faceoff85]

reply to post by faceoff85

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hehehe... I'll just see this as you being heated. must say you pose a great "challenger" but mind you I as well intend to keep it a friendly discussion. anyway I'll take your word for it, I havent "judged" the islam whatsoever. I do condemn whatever harm any human does to another and I recognize that the people we hear about in the news dont represent the people as a whole.

But you did judge them with this statement: "unlike the Koran wich I believe does advocate acts of war on non-muslims."

For one... I FULLY understand both the old and new Covenant mentioned in the bible. And although its true Jesus did not throw out the 10 commandments, the same cannot be said for the way god's people interacted with god. where in the past they needed any form of blood-sacrifice in any form of worship. Be it asking for forgiveness or asking for a favor or whatever, this was undone by the PERFECT sacrifice Jesus's blood provided. God's followers were still to respect the 10 commandments but the stoneing of violators or any other form of blood-sacrifice was no longer needed since Jesus sacrificed his PERFECT blood FOR US.

From this point forward, when you make a scriptural claim, please quote the verse in question.

On blood sacrifice: en.wikipedia.org...

Can you quote any verse where such sacrifices were to no longer be performed at all and please explain why Jesus and the Apostle Paul both offered sacrifices.

Are you trying to tell me Jesus was a hypocrite?

And where are you getting this notion that Jesus' death threw out the old laws when Jesus himself said he WAS NOT. Are you calling Jesus a liar and putting words in his mouth?

Those laws were again part of the old testament and were indeed undone by Jesus's sacrifice. I'd like to refer you to my previous post where I give some scriptures showing the undoing of the previous covenant (note, this does not mean the 10 commandments are void. it merely means that people needn't take action to enforce them anymore)

I've read the verses you pointed out in your previous post and none of them explicitly state that any of the laws were abolished under a new covenant.

well I believe muslims in general to be a respectfull and loving people, I live in an area with more muslims than christians and I wouldn't have it any other way. my christian brethren (the ones I know) are untrustworthy and VERY hypocritical. My muslim neighbours pose the best neighbours and friends I have had

I don't know what to make of this statement, given that you have previously stated that the Qur'an, the holy book of the Muslim, preaches violence. Now your changing your mind? I'm still confused as to what your beliefs are in regards to the Qur'an and the Muslims.

uhmmm.... yeah to much for me there... I cant come to the same conclusion. This has been a sharpening of the blade to me. thnx

It's not hard... God states thou shalt not murder and then proceeds to command his followers to murder. That's a contradiction to his commandment. There is no way around that, none.

But, somehow that act of murder is OK as most of it happened in the OT, but anyone who still acts according to God's commandments today in the OT are not 'true to the faith' despite Jesus explicitly stating that he was not abolishing the laws of God, but was only fulfilling prophecy.

If you can't come to that conclusion then your doing it wrong.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by faceoff85

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From this point forward, when you make a scriptural claim, please quote the verse in question.
Can you quote any verse where such sacrifices were to no longer be performed at all and please explain why Jesus and the Apostle Paul both offered sacrifices.

K lets start with the first part.
Jeremia. 31:31-34 here god talks about forming a new covenant in the future. this indicates that god indeed was planning to form a new covenant.
there are more indications that the old covenant was as likely eternal as it was temporary when you read Ex. 31:16, 17 the word used when talking about the length of the covenant is indeffinite when saying its lasting (the original hebrew word O-lam or something). In numbers 5:13 the same hebrew word is used when talking about the covenant being a lasting one but as we can read in Hebrews 7:12 in this case it wasn't everlasting.
then we look at 1 Corinthians 11:25 Jesus talks about this new covenant being formed. you now what his personal commandment was to his true followers? to commemorate his death. 1 Corinthians 11:20 mentions its name and here Jesus tells what he wanted. Luke. 22:19, 1 Kor. 11:26
At this time Jesus knew he was gonna Be killed soon and he wanted is apostles to commemorate his death with the ritual of drinking the wine symbolysing his blood Mark 14:22-25 read the part about the covenant? and the part where he mentions his blood is poured for the benefit of many? this would be the turning point. before jesus died Whenever someone would not obey sabbath-rules they could be stoned to death. after Jesus died this old covenant was still to be influencing in daily moral lives but as romans 10:4 reads "Christ is the end of the law'' and as you probably know those mandatory sacrifices were part of that "old law".
alswo read Galatians 4:9-11 and ephesians 2:13-16 for some more highlighting

I'd like to hear opinion first before I delve into the rest and will, as you can imagine this took me some time to research. I'll be back tomorow if my wife and kids will let me on mothersday.

[edit on 8-5-2010 by faceoff85]

thanks for that mate just one thing

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by the illuminator

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I got older and started asking questions for which the Bible had no answer (certainly no satisfactory one) I realized that it wasn't the end all be all book, it wasn't perfect.



[edit on 8-5-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

what questions did you have?

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