US Patent #7709819 "Apparatus and Method for Long-Term Storage of Antimatter"

reply to post by muzzleflash


I think the difficulty here is that where you or I can articulate our thoughts using english and nothing else where required, a physics proffessor has to (or at least, is trained to) articulate theory in number, and equation format. Not everyone understands that format, God knows I dont. Therefore, even if you get a very articulate person to explain the theories that are comming up nowadays, they have to over simplify things so that the public will have a concept to think about . Trouble with that is, that so often things will be lost in the translation between english and mathematics, that to describe some of the more complex mechanics involved would be pointless, due to the fact that anything other than the raw maths, well understood, would be an obsfucation, or a dillution of the truth.
One of the most difficult things about being me , is that I have a massive appitite for the sciences, but little (read : NO ) mathematical ability . Therefore, even though I am capable of understanding what is meant by the various phrases used by scientists to explain thier feild to the laypersons, I have NO ability to comprehend or interpret raw data. I am not alone in this of course, and while I personaly am in awe of those who can understand fully the mathematical implications of the results of various experiments,and theories, I understand also the deep mistrust that can sometimes be aimed at science in general. Its very hard to have blind faith in something which seems so veiled in confusion, especialy since one has to learn a language just to be able to comprehend it!

People always make patents for things ahead of time. Which is interesting because they won't know when they might get their hands on the antimatter. Could be never within their patent's lifetime.

The mind boggling cost involved and massive equipment/technology required to produce such small quantities of antimatter leaves me questioning... Why bother?

Many decades ago an insane amount of money was spent to develop enriched uranium and plutonium which also seemed to be a waste of time, and money to many involved but they were convinced to do it anyway, and eventually created the first atomic bombs, not only that but as soon as they were ready they were used on Japan to end the war.

So, why are they spending so much time, money and effort to produce antimatter?

Is there some great danger we don't yet know about and they need a super-weapon to eliminate some major threat?

Surely the cost involved, technology and ENERGY required to produce and store the smallest quantities of antimatter would suggest that they are not seeking this for an alternative energy source... So what are they really up to?

When you read the patent in the USPTO.Gov site. This patent in a continuation file. Please also note, this is nothing NEW. The examiners will need to state what is allowed, and it is up to Positronics Research LLC to come back with why each claim should be allowed. This concept, as you will note the reference in the file, dates back to February 1957 Atkinson et al. USPTO #2,938,752.

Originally posted by TrueBrit

I think the difficulty here is that where you or I can articulate our thoughts using english and nothing else where required, a physics proffessor has to (or at least, is trained to) articulate theory in number, and equation format. Not everyone understands that format, God knows I dont.

I am saying NO ONE understands it. Not even them.

Wasn't Newton proven wrong by Einstein?

Well, than all of their math can be proven wrong, clearly. As every consecutive evolution in mathematical knowledge throughout history clearly illustrates.

With new experiments, come new theories and equations. It will probably be like this for thousands of years to come, if not indefinitely.

Where is that Unified Field theory anyways?????

Just so people know, since a lot of you think antimatter is new.

We've had it for a looong time.

PET scan machines produce a small amount of antimatter
the P stands for positron, which is an anti-electron and this machine was invented in 1953. so we've had it for over 50 years.

[edit on 5/8/2010 by VonDoomen]

reply to post by muzzleflash


Well where the unified feild theory comes in, I believe thats what the LHC is for, and they have said recently that they think they are almost at the power level required to do the collision they believe will show the most promising results.
They need the result of this experiment because it will fill a key data gap , which has stumped them all in terms of progress with the theory. If they find the Higgs boson, as they hope to it will make the continuation of the work possible. If they do not find it, then many things will have to be re thought.
I understand what you are saying , in that scientists do not know what they are doing . Thats often the case I suppose. Much experimentation has a result which can only be explained AFTER the processes involved have been completed and the results examined. The LHC is a great example of just that.
I think its important to realise though , that science is never the less, a valid, and laudable career move, and those who rise to its heights are to be supported. Newton, was the first to discover the math of gravity, and the first to codify motion in physical principle. As far as could be examined at the time he lived, his theories stood solid, and paved the way for many inventions based on his ideas , many of which worked very well. Look it up!
It is only in the last centuary or so , as our horizons expand to things which Newton and his fellows could never have forseen, that his laws and theories stretch and break under our arrogance and hubris! Yes Einstein gave him a good trumping, but there again how many years between the two ? Science is merely a way for us to understand what we expirience in the universe. It is not supposed to be solid and unmoving, it is an evolving picture, a record of our understanding. This is why people get aggravated with persons who claim that FTL is impossible, because science is not FACT , it is merely how we understand the results we see, and is prone to being re written . Therefore FTL , and all sorts of bizzare undiscovered tech MAY WELL come to be proven possible. It is merely that we cannot concieve of HOW just yet.

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
reply to post by Gools

 

I don't get it... We know that CERN is trying to create anti-matter and NASA is trying to find it in space. Why does this patent surprise you? When you go fishing, you take a container to bring the fish home… why wouldn’t we take a container to bring anti-matter home?

Design flaw in the Alpha Magnetic spectrometer may impact NASA launch. Big Bang project may delay space shuttle's final flight

At issue is a van-sized device called the Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer, which scientists hope will tell them more about the universe and its beginnings. The AMS is scheduled to fly aboard Endeavour in July to be installed aboard the International Space Station, but a potential design flaw has forced NASA to consider postponing the mission.

NASA Delays Final Space Shuttle Mission to November

The spectrometer will be installed on the exterior of the space station to study high-energy cosmic rays in the hunt for elusive antimatter and dark matter.

We have antimatter already we have yoctometers of the "stuff" I'm sure they use it at Cern.

what is the big deal, you can trap plasma the same way, it is a "magnetic bubble" basically. woot woot! nothing to see here, they have the know how to trap it but they probably don't have the antimatter yet. and lets hope they never do in any significant quantities. it will make nukes look like m80's.
And yes, you can patent ideas that may have future use as long as you can prove mathematically or "on paper" that it will work, I should know, I have 4 patents!

how smart do you think the civil servants at the USPTO are really?

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
reply to post by Gools

 

Design flaw in the Alpha Magnetic spectrometer may impact NASA launch. Big Bang project may delay space shuttle's final flight

At issue is a van-sized device called the Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer, which scientists hope will tell them more about the universe and its beginnings. The AMS is scheduled to fly aboard Endeavour in July to be installed aboard the International Space Station, but a potential design flaw has forced NASA to consider postponing the mission.

NASA Delays Final Space Shuttle Mission to November

The spectrometer will be installed on the exterior of the space station to study high-energy cosmic rays in the hunt for elusive antimatter and dark matter.

Of late NASA has been delaying a lot of missions, but the reasons given may be far from the truth IMO. These are ectremely smart and sly characters.

Cheers

reply to post by Chonx


I wish I could rememebr the name of the show, I think it was on history channel. They were at Cern and the officials there stated that they had already produced small amounts of antimatter and that they keep it stored there. 2nd line.

reply to post by malcr


Actually, the anti-protons & anti-neutrons in anti-matter are made of anti-quarks, not regular-matter quarks in different combinations. Anti-electrons (positrons) & electrons have no known constituent sub-particles. But all that's nit-picking. Just about all theories predict anti-matter will be affected by gravity in an identical way as ordinary matter.

Huge discovery!

This is a change or paradigm.
S&F.

Maybe this is the beginning of the end of OIL AGE!

reply to post by LUXUS


You are right about the antimatter and advanced space travel. Antimatter might make a space ship go really fast with less fuel mass onboard, but going fast is limited by relativity. What is needed is some form of spacetime manipulation and that is beyond what humans have access to now.

Dark energy and unseen physical dimensions are no doubt the toe hold. Physics needs to understand such things to get to the stars. The thing is, if unseen physical dimensions are tenable, is interstellar space travel really the game anymore? It might explain the Fermi paradox. But that's for another thread.

DE

After reading the patent sounds like its describing the aparatus from Angels & Demons! :

Originally posted by Antor

Maybe this is the beginning of the end of OIL AGE!

Or the beginning of a new and twisted kind of arms race with the objective to make nuclear weapons obsolete in favor of new and more powerful warheads containing anti-hydrogen which can have unlimited destructive power, yet not leave behind massive radioactive clouds.

Nukes can be made obsolete with mater/antimatter bombs.

If all nuclear powers agree, then perhaps Obama was correct in saying that a world without nuclear weapons is possible.

Cooperation between nuclear powers can make this happen, and nuclear weapons can be eliminated and made obsolete with all sides still having mutually assured destructive capabilities.

That is a practical application.

Antimatter as a viable alternative energy source is not practical, as the cost of production in sufficient quantities is prohibitive. Also it requires massive amounts of energy to produce antimatter.

Though they are working on other ways of collecting antimatter that are less costly.

In the foreseeable future, antimatter is not a viable energy source.... But it will make incredibly powerful weapons.

[edit on 8-5-2010 by Fractured.Facade]

Originally posted by muzzleflash
Originally posted by TrueBrit

Wasn't Newton proven wrong by Einstein?

Einstein didn't prove Newton wrong. Einstein came up with a beautiful theory that articulates what Newton didn't know. Newton's knowledge of gravity was not to Einstein's level but his equation still holds up today. Einstein was able to come up with a theory where Newton's equation becomes a small subset, a special case.

Similar to when Christopher Columbus discovered "America." He actually discovered the West Indies. Later, as other explorers charted the new continent, it did not prove that the West Indies were wrong or invalid. Instead, it was shown to be part of a much larger discovery, North America.

A successful description of a physical phenomenon today will not be negated tomorrow. Rather, a new theory will come along to expand and generalize the phenomenon in light of new knowledge.

DE

[edit on 8-5-2010 by desert_eagle]

[edit on 8-5-2010 by desert_eagle]

reply to post by Gools


Just because something has been patented does not mean it is necessarily "working as described". You can patent an idea and put the technicals on paper but it doesn't necessarily mean it will ever be built, manufactured, etc... As example, look at all the patents that apple has applied for recently and many may never be taken any further then the paperwork.

Just wanted to clarify a bit.

reply to post by Gools


THis patent is an APPLICATION, it has not been granted. IF you will note, it was filed in 2008. The patent examiner has not even started on it yet. You can follow the progress through the office, including all questions asked of the Corporation that has filed the claims.

Also, the US Gov can take ANY patent that is submitted. I have several patents and 20+ in the applications process. This must not be TOP Security .. or the Gov would have taken the patent from the applicant. I am using very simple terms in this forum so that all can understand, it is far more complicated than this brief post.