Lets DEBUNK this once and for all... CHEM-TRAILS

reply to post by Goethe


Goethe…..

I’m sorry I couldn’t respond more quickly.

Thank you for answering my questions (as inserted below). That has helped me to understand your background pertaining to this chemtrail issue.

Q: 1. How long have you been looking into this “chemtrail” issue?

A: Only afew months. After moving back to the area after living elsewhere, I noticed alot of these weird looking clouds. Never really noticed them before and started watching the skies. Then I saw the planes that were doing it, and landed online hitting google.

Q: 2. What is the extent of your meteorological qualifications, reading & knowledge?

A: I didnt go to school, nor work in such an area. Im a mere lay person, but have read more than afew reports and docs on this topic. I wouldnt dare call myself well researched, but I wouldnt call my knowledge lacking in the common sense and basic stuff.

Q: 3. What is the extent of your medical qualifications, reading & knowledge?

A: Alot of docs and nurses in the family, and nothing more than that. And they too question some of this stuff quietly.
I was in the service and saw my share of odd things, so I know theres some very weird things out there I just dont know about.
Thats why I post and ask questions and try to figure out whats what.

I won’t post too much more detail in this thread because it will just get lost in the usual chemtrail noise & I can’t see my comments cutting through.

However I’ll respond to your first answer wherein you say you have only been looking at this issue for a few months.

I first started noticing the chemtrail issue & getting concerned based on my own observations approx 15 years ago.

I really did think it was possible something was going on.

However I continued my reading in depth for several years & came to understand there is no such thing as a chemtrail.

My counsel is that you keep looking into this in detail with a truly open mind…..logic & fact will eventually lead you to understand your concerns are unfounded.

The material I posted for you is a good starting point.

Kind regards
Maybe…maybe not

Originally posted by OsmosisMetamorphis
I am 51 years old. I still remember when the sky wasn't so gray and contrails were just that, they would disappear within minutes leaving no sign that there was anything there. It wasn't until the 1980's when I started seeing chem-trails.

Check out this link:
Contrail Photos Through History

I'm 44 and remember growing up near a rural area in the 1970s where farmers complained about (and had been complaining about since the 1950s) how the "jet age" and the age of high-altitude flight in general has caused the sky to have persistent CONtrails that could spread out and create cloud cover.

Persistent contrails that lasted several hours were a documented problem for World War II high-flying bombers.

Edit to add:
Obviously with the rise of much more airline traffic since the 1980s, there has been an increase in the number of persistent contrails, but they have existed since the beginning of high-altitude flight in the late 1930s.


[edit on 5/12/2010 by Soylent Green Is People]

Thread starts, irrefutable proof of chemtrails trails nine or ten pages long. Four pages later, all the usual contrail crowd wraps our minds around "there is no such thing as chemtrails, only contrails" and life goes on as normal on the issue. Pretty sketchy denials contrailers. Fooled your kids into believing frogs are indeed alien lifeforms, lately?

Or is this going through your mind ...
"All's well that ends well"!
"Our comments will be the last thing people remember"!
"Well, at least we tried"!

[edit on 12-5-2010 by Northwarden]

reply to post by Northwarden


what is it that these chem-trails are doing to you? Are they killing off the unknowing population?

Why is it so far fetched to believe that in the right conditions, aircraft exhaust can and will remain in the sky? Oh, I get it, only when they fly over your house is it a chem trail. When they fly over somewhere like Washington DC, they must be con trails. got it.

The geo-engineering is something a lot of people need an introduction to, and all of us could use more education on. It needs a detailed, timeline understanding, complete with all relevant quotes/articles from the Club of Rome, Royal Society, Optimal Population Trust, industry/political corruption standpoint on the CO2 issue, trailing the Hughes patent from military to Boeing, an outline of the four uncovered military programs which utilize atmospheric chemicals, the geo-engineering of plants to counter the poisons already present in our atmosphere, and an overview of regional programs, university testings, and anything else we can land that has participated, a compilation of all past government sprayings documented and often declassified, and the whole idiocy about Al Gores documentary needs countering by good science, and a lot of common sense.

So far as government conspiracies go, this one is huge, a nine or a ten. Yes, it's to depopulate the world. You don't need to wonder why any longer! They'll fix up what they want environmentally once we're out of the picture. Or so goes the plan. Elites have admitted this. Others have admitted this in not so many words, but insist it will happen.

[edit on 12-5-2010 by Northwarden]

reply to post by Northwarden


the average life span is increasing exponentially every year. In every country. If the goal of TPTB is the depopulaiton of the planet, they they are sucking lots of eggs. With what you claim is a concentrated effort of global proportions, it isn't working at all. I am Joe Nobody, and If I wanted to depopulate an area, I can think of multitudes of ways to do it effectively and covertly. There has to be a better argument than that.

My theory is that they are pumping sodium compounds, possibly salt water (sodium chloride) into the sodium layer.

Perhaps they are trying to increase the levels of sodium in the sodium layer of our planet.

You can read about it here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

In my reading into this, there are a few points to make.
Some people say that those are UN planes flying in the skies dumping who knows what and that the chemicals come from other countries such as Venezuela and othe South American countries and that the pilots are not from this country either.So that would answer a few questions as to why no one has leaked any info from US chem. factories or any whistleblowers.
Another thing is that when I was a kid (not too long ago, 80's) I used to spend quite a bit of time lying on my back looking into the sky at planes leaving the contrail behind. NEVER was itever longer than a couple inches (in retrospect) and NEVER did it last all day and form into clouds after, or spread out into ther contrails and create a hazy blanket.
Another thing I have read about this is that it could be for electromagnetic purposes of varying use,(HAARP, ELF,EHF, communications and such).
In Texas since the 50's they have been "cloud seeding" to help farmers water their crops. If you look at some of the pictures of the procedure done at that time, it is definetly not the same as the operation going on today.

reply to post by avidreader

Another thing is that when I was a kid (not too long ago, 80's) I used to spend quite a bit of time lying on my back looking into the sky at planes leaving the contrail behind. NEVER was itever longer than a couple inches (in retrospect) and NEVER did it last all day and form into clouds after...

And your memory is perfect? You saw the sky all day, every day (when it was overcast or raining)?


Anyway, several reasons for the increased awareness of CONtrails, in last decade or so.

ONE: More airplanes!! That is pretty basic, easy to understand, and easy to research. Just look at historical air traffic trends (number of passengers carried, year over year) and airline fleet information.

TWO: Engine design. Two things going on, here....better fuel efficiency is a goal, due to higher fuel prices. AND, there were increasing requirements for noise abatement in designs. Also, along with fuel efficiency, the need to make the engines "cleaner", in the exhaust gases. Less pollution.

THREE: During the last couple of decades the older, less-efficient, noisier engines (and the airplanes they were installed on) have been retired, in favor of the newer models, and engine technologies.

THAT is it! The engines are different, and the contrails are more long-lasting.

This isn't a guess on my part---it's backed by the science, and my own PERSONAL experience in the airline business, as a pilot, for over three decades (two and a half on big jets).

In my reading into this, there are a few points to make.

Yes, speaking of reading, I have some for you:

These trails are called contrails. They are not smoke from the engines, they are formed when the water in jet exhaust (and there’s a lot of it, like car exhaust on a cold day) mixes with wet cold air, and condenses out as ice crystals. Contrails are actually a type of cirrus cloud. When the air is wet and cold enough the trails can stay around for a long time, and sometimes spread out.

Now there are two main reasons why some planes leave trails and some do not. One, the less common reason, is that different planes have different engines. Some engines need different conditions to leave contrails. Here, for example are an Airbus A340 (maiden flight: 1991) on the left, leaving contrails, and a Boeing 707 (maiden flight: 1957) not leaving contrails. Both are flying at 33,000 feet (part of a German test to study contrail formation), but the newer engines of the A340 produce more water vapor at a different temperature, and so make contrails.

Follow this LINK to see the photos they are talking about, and read more.







[edit on 13 May 2010 by weedwhacker]

Just curious on your opinion, why do they spread and create a film with others? Wouldn't a flight pattern have numerous contrails going over one another, instead of all side by side or perfect X or fan shaped? I am truly curious, as youwere a pilot, why aren't there more overtop one another, do flight patterns follow eachother. And no, of course I didn't see the sky every minute of every day, obviously. just merely an obsevation on my part, contributing to the thread, that's all.

reply to post by avidreader


Well....firstly, cirrus clouds will form, when conditions are right at altitude, regardless whether an airplane has flown through the airmass and disturbed it.

Meteorology happens. There is a great deal more energy involved in just one thundercloud, for example, than most people realize. I forget where, but I've seen comparisons...(just remember that the atmosphere derives its energy from several sources...the Sun primarily, and the thermodynamics of latent heat of water vapor, forget the technical terms off the top of my head).

But, I digress.


A jet might fly through air that is not fully saturated, and the "typical" contrail that most people assume and are familiar with will appear, but won't remain. ALL of these, BTW, are ice crystals --- whether a contrail or a cirrus cloud, they are composed of tiny crystals of frozen water. Because they form where it is VERY cold, at those altitudes. -30 to -65 degrees fahrenheit (colder as you go up, usually). Check 'google' for the adiabatic lapse rate, if you'd like to learn more. That gets kinda technical, so an easier rule of thumb we use (works mostly for Private Pilots, lower altitudes, not up high, but you get the idea) is two degrees C for every 1,000 feet of vertical rise. Starting with the International "standard" of 15C at sea level.

I found this page from USAToday, of all places...good for the layperson:

www.usatoday.com...

So, when a contrail forms in relatively 'dry' air, and the conditions aren't suitable for sustainablity, then the contrail will 'evaporate' (actually, the correct term for the phase transition of ice directly to vapor, without the intermediate step of liquid water is sublimate.)

Whenever you watch the sky, and see jets overhead making the shorter contrails that disappear a few airplane lengths behind, you'll likely see no other clouds...no cirrus, at least not at the same altitudes and locations as the airplanes.

Cirrus clouds, as I said, will form naturally, but of course airplanes will accelerate that process. Again, IF conditions are suitable.

There are many sites that explain the science, but this Wiki is fairly short and sweet:

en.wikipedia.org...


So, that's the dealio on contrails...you can go deeper withthe "Appleman Chart" if you wish...


As to parallel contrails? Well, obviously there are some Jet Airways that will be heavily traveled more often than others...jets following ahead and behind each other by a minimum of ten to twenty miles, at altitude...AND jets on same route, different altitudes too.

Combine that with the fact that in any country, or region, the cities being traveled between are all over the place, so airplanes have different directions of travel, relative to each other. Just look at a map...

...when looking at the map, remember the way airlines today mostly schedule the flights, too. The "Hub and Spoke" system. Each company has different "Hubs", so there is cross-over.

Afraid this turned out longer than I intended, but a simplistic answer won't cut it --- since the "chemtrail" hucksters rely on the "simple", and hope people won't educate themselves better, in order to keep selling their snake oil.

Just remember, when considering the contrails you see next time, to think in THREE dimensions. And, from the ground 30,000 feet below (that's five to six MILES, if you stop to think about it) you won't be able to tell the difference between contrails that are only 1,000 feet apart, vertically.

Please remember, too, how upper-level winds affect the contrails (and the clouds). Winds vary widely, both in region, hour by hour, and with varying altitude.

YouTube has a lot of videos of clouds in time-lapse, those are good to watch too.

Originally posted by LUXUS
My theory is that they are pumping sodium compounds, possibly salt water (sodium chloride) into the sodium layer.

Sodium layer refers to a layer within the Earth's mesosphere of unbound, non-ionized atoms of sodium. The altitude of this layer is usually located between 80–105 km (50–65 miles) and has a depth of about 5 km (3 miles).

en.wikipedia.org...

That is the edge of space. Just how high do you think jets can fly?

Lol..

I don't see how 'it's being laid out like grid work' is a valid argument..

it just goes to show you're not thinking about it at all..

Aircraft don't just fly up randomly into the sky and zip around in funky patterns. They have flight paths they follow...and they communicate between other aircraft to make sure a collision won't occur. It's not 'mysterious' as to why the vaportrails look like grid work.

Another argument I read..is that you don't see the trails on the ground, but instead in the sky.

Hmm, I wonder. uh NARF...how often do you see clouds forming at your head height? Clouds usually form several hundred feet up. Unless you have fog, but that's much rarer, and slightly different. The height at which most aircraft travel is oddly equivalant to the height of 'cirrus' which is a type of thin cloud. It forms at higher altitudes.
www.uvm.edu...
I shake my head when people show pictures of new vapor trails, with a cirrus cloud around it claiming that the cirrus cloud is the result of 'chem trails'...

-.-

THIIINKKK people..don't just repeat things because you think it makes sense.

I dont have any Evidence or Expertise in this matter ,, but yesterday i did notice an aircraft with an EXTREMELY long lasting contrail that went Above over the nearby clouds.

after the Ascent into air the aircraft made Very odd Angles in the sky over the clouds, Which then Appeared to Fall from the Sky.

it was like the Clouds Were Being Pushed Down Towards Me to Distort The Amount of clear Air i could see.

Also, It Seems like there is a Cloud in front of the Sun everyday in the same spot and that seems odd to me as well.

that is just my testimony of what i saw, i have no idea if it could of been a chemtrail.

Here are a couple of interesting links. I didn't have time to read this entire thread, so if this is duplicate information, I apologize.

www.weathermodification.com...

In the above link...the link to "Cloud Seeding" in the navigation is of particular interest.

In the video below, the meteorologist who is a former Marine, notes some clouds showing on the radar and confirms it is the military performing maneuvers that entail spraying aluminum dust in the air to confuse radar.



When I first saw this, I was shocked that the guy thought we should think it's okay to spray aluminum dust in the air for any reason. Chemtrail or Contrail...something shady is going on.

reply to post by glitchinthematrix


Glitchinthematrix.....

I agree.....it's just awful!

OMG......is that another chemtrail?

Run......just run!

reply to post by Goethe





Large object seen over antioch

On the evening of May 15, while on my computer I heard what sounded like a loud rumble. When I went outside to take a look, I could barely see the outline of a "con trail". (Earlier that evening my wife had noticed that there were "chem trails" crossing each other, everywhere in the evening sky. I thought this odd having never seen this many, in this area before.) So I grabbed my night vision and flir for a better look. I noticed that the "con trail" was huge using the night vision. I then switched to flir to check for heat. Man! this "con trail" was big. I don't know the altitude of comets when they graze our atmosphere, but in trying to give some kind of size comparison, to my best judgement this con trail was at least 5 times wider then any chem trail I have ever seen using flir. I could tell it was heading east and giving off a huge heat bloom. I have some collaboration on this event, (reported on MUFON) with a person in Antioch CA seeing a huge bright object heading east on the same night.
I also noticed when using flir that chem trails look metalic. Upon further viewing, it came to my attention that my flir would not pick up any heat source beyond the chem trail's layer. Maybe there is some truth to all the speculation about some unseen object heading towards earth. Seems like someone is trying to hide something.




Submitted Date:2010-05-15 18:06 GMT
Event Date:2010-05-15 14:30 GMT
City:Antioch
Region:California
Country:US
Summary:Briliant white like a shooting star moving slowly.
Click Here for Full Event Detail
Map data ©2010 AND, Europa Technologies, Google, INEGI - Terms of Use
Map
Terrain
Satellite
Hybrid


Detail for Event ID 23308
Case Number: 23308
Log Number: US-05162010-0002
Submitted Date: 2010-05-16 01:06 GMT
Event Date: 2010-05-15 21:30 GMT
Status: Completed
City: Antioch
Region: California
Country: US
Longitude: -121.804
Latitude: 37.9925
Shape: Sphere,Star-like
Distance: One mile or less
Entity Type: None
Vallee Index: FB1
Description:
I was in my bathroom looking out the window When I saw what at first what looked like a shooting star. I noticed that it was moving to slow for a shooting star, and to fast for a plane. It was heading east along a known flight path. I didn't see any other light on it. The light was to bright to make out any betails of the object. Then the lights brightness droped to nothing and vanished leaving no trace. The hole time it didn't change course or speed. I don't know what it was but it filled me with wonder.
Attached Media: None

reply to post by Phage





Large object seen over antioch

On the evening of May 15, while on my computer I heard what sounded like a loud rumble. When I went outside to take a look, I could barely see the outline of a "con trail". (Earlier that evening my wife had noticed that there were "chem trails" crossing each other, everywhere in the evening sky. I thought this odd having never seen this many, in this area before.) So I grabbed my night vision and flir for a better look. I noticed that the "con trail" was huge using the night vision. I then switched to flir to check for heat. Man! this "con trail" was big. I don't know the altitude of comets when they graze our atmosphere, but in trying to give some kind of size comparison, to my best judgement this con trail was at least 5 times wider then any chem trail I have ever seen using flir. I could tell it was heading east and giving off a huge heat bloom. I have some collaboration on this event, (reported on MUFON) with a person in Antioch CA seeing a huge bright object heading east on the same night.
I also noticed when using flir that chem trails look metalic. Upon further viewing, it came to my attention that my flir would not pick up any heat source beyond the chem trail's layer. Maybe there is some truth to all the speculation about some unseen object heading towards earth. Seems like someone is trying to hide something.




Submitted Date:2010-05-15 18:06 GMT
Event Date:2010-05-15 14:30 GMT
City:Antioch
Region:California
Country:US
Summary:Briliant white like a shooting star moving slowly.
Click Here for Full Event Detail
Map data ©2010 AND, Europa Technologies, Google, INEGI - Terms of Use
Map
Terrain
Satellite
Hybrid


Detail for Event ID 23308
Case Number: 23308
Log Number: US-05162010-0002
Submitted Date: 2010-05-16 01:06 GMT
Event Date: 2010-05-15 21:30 GMT
Status: Completed
City: Antioch
Region: California
Country: US
Longitude: -121.804
Latitude: 37.9925
Shape: Sphere,Star-like
Distance: One mile or less
Entity Type: None
Vallee Index: FB1
Description:
I was in my bathroom looking out the window When I saw what at first what looked like a shooting star. I noticed that it was moving to slow for a shooting star, and to fast for a plane. It was heading east along a known flight path. I didn't see any other light on it. The light was to bright to make out any betails of the object. Then the lights brightness droped to nothing and vanished leaving no trace. The hole time it didn't change course or speed. I don't know what it was but it filled me with wonder.
Attached Media: None

reply to post by glitchinthematrix


How embarassing. That video has nothing to do with so-called chemtrails. Chaff is a radar countermeasure to prevent an aircraft from being shot down by a radar-guided missile. It comes out in a short burst, usually accompanied by flares, and dissipates. It does not make a long vapor trail. As said in the video, it was being dropped by miltary aircraft doing training missions.

This entire conspiracy has been invented and continues to thrive because of complete ignorance to the science behind contrails and really says something about the psychology of its proponents.

[edit on 5/16/2010 by bagari]

[edit on 5/16/2010 by bagari]

[edit on 5/16/2010 by bagari]

reply to post by bagari


The video is relevant to the discussion as it mentions aircraft dropping aluminum dust. The second post in this thread mentions aircraft dropping aluminum bits into the air. While it is not chemtrails, it is related to this thread about planes dropping harmful #e from the sky.

The link you provided refers to the chaff produced from winnowing. I am quite familiar with that. How is that relevant? Is there aluminum in chaff? I didn't see any reference to it in the article.