Hospital bills for imaginary services, did it happen to you?

poudrevalleybillingmistake.webs.com...

I'll summarize from her website: Woman was in a car accident, didn't want to go to ER. Medics told her it was a legal trauma call, she had to go based on state law re: a 12 inch intrusion into the occupant compartment of her car. Respecting the law, she went. Was billed for activation of a trauma team that she never saw, never needed.

Afterward, she checked out the wrecked car and easily saw there was no 12" intrusion into the occupant compartment of the car. Tried to bring in photos and videos to show hospital billing department that a wrong call was made. There really was no legal trauma, she was not responsible for the mistake of the emergency personnel. Hospital refused to let her show them her evidence. She even offered to bring in the wreck on a trailer so they could measure for themselves. They relied on just the memories of the people who made the mistake.

Now she is being sued for the money of imaginary services that she never wanted, never used and never should have been billed for. Great photos of the car prove her point. Also, the ER only treated her by washing her face some. They left the airbag dust on her face. It caused burns to her face after being released. Burns were not present at time of accident. Wash off really well if you have an airbag go off!

Has this happened to anyone else? Meaning, have you been billed for imaginary services you never used? What did you do?

reply to post by lidobeachjesse


This has never happened to me, but what I did recently catch was the insurance company classifying a couple of tests as "investigative and medical trial procedure" and this not covered.

I called my doc about the procedure and he told me that it was for a cardiac enzyme test that he has been ordering for years and was certainly known as an established practice.

Got on the horn with the insurance company and after two hours got the charge removed.

You need to review in detail every line in the insurance bill you get and you should never pay them for services you don't receive. If it is a significant amount of money, you should send them a certified letter articulating your dispute, so that it is recorded should it pop up on your credit report.

reply to post by lidobeachjesse


This has never happened to me, but what I did recently catch was the insurance company classifying a couple of tests as "investigative and medical trial procedure" and this not covered.

I called my doc about the procedure and he told me that it was for a cardiac enzyme test that he has been ordering for years and was certainly known as an established practice.

Got on the horn with the insurance company and after two hours got the charge removed.

You need to review in detail every line in the insurance bill you get and you should never pay them for services you don't receive. If it is a significant amount of money, you should send them a certified letter articulating your dispute, so that it is recorded should it pop up on your credit report.

I think that hospitals bill the insurance companies for unreceived services frequently. I know a co-worker who needed surgery. He had insurance. His doctor told him that if he could find the strength to be released from the hospital in less than 24 hours after the surgery, the operating room fees would be cut in half. Otherwise, the bill would double for the operating room if he stayed in a hospital room. He would not have used any more time in the OR by staying in a regular hospital bed, but it was common practice to double the OR fees. He managed to get out just in time and saved himself some money as the insurance would have only covered part of the bill. How can that be legal?

Yep. When I was 6 weeks pregnant with my daughter, I was in a minor fender-bender as a passenger. We had taken off from a stop and hit the car in front of us that hadn't moved yet, so we were going less than 5 miles an hour. My head very slightly hit the windshield (I was 19 & not real brilliant and there was no seatbelt law in effect at that time). Because of those two facts, me being pregnant and my head hitting the windshield, they strapped me down to a board and took me to the ER. I had initially refused as I didn't even have a slight headache or sore spot but they said too bad, so sad. I did have insurance, fortunately but the Ambulance ride was $350 and the ER visit with x-rays and a check-over for injuries was several hundred. I had to pay $80 for a copay to the ER and had to pay fully for the ambulance ride, which was not covered. There was absolutely nothing wrong with me and I never even got a bruise on my head later on. Zero complications with my pregnancy. The accident was so minor, it was one of those "oops, sorry" and move on things. If I hadn't told the cop I was pregnant, he probably wouldn't have called an ambulance and we would've been out of there with a quick information exchange.

If this were to happen to me today, I would refuse to pay and probably end up in court over it. I didn't pay the entire ambulance bill, so it went against my credit. I did end up paying the creditor eventually.

I'm not going to talk about the $4500 I was charged for having a child, when every illegal I know has had a child in this country for between $0-$500, and that's a lot of illegals by the way!

What I do want to talk about is how the Women's Hospital in Houston, TX overcharged the hell out of me for a misdiagnosis and extremely minor procedure. A week or two after my wife had our baby at the exact same hospital, she had a lump appear on one of her breast. She called her gyno, told her staff about it and they said to do nothing. A week later it was much more swollen and sore so she called back, and they told her to come in immediately. So, she goes and the doctor tells her it could be very serious and she must go immediately to the hospital, even went as far as to tell her not to go home and get any clothes, GO STRAIGHT TO THE HOSPITAL! Of course, she went scared and crying and so I had to pay up front for the room, $!00+ since my $550 a month policy wouldn't cover a "private" room for her. Anyways, long story short 18 hours 2 IV's and 1 Ibuprofin later, a general surgeon shows up and lances what turns out to be a simple cyst. He literally told me "you could really do this at home, you didn't have to come to the hospital...come by my office in a couple of weeks and we'll remove the cyst after the swelling goes down". I was there for the whole procedure, they used 1 scalpel, 2 alcohol pads for prepping the area, 3 guaze pads, and about 12 inches of tape.

So here is what I got billed. First off, the gyno only charged for a regular visit, but its important to note that she only sends patients to this particular hospital. The general surgeon charged me for two separate visits, one a consultation and the other the surgery, this turned out to be roughly $400. The hospital charged me over $1000 dollars, claiming she had used 6 IV's, several Ibubrofin, 5 boxes of gauze, a box of alcohol swabs, two rolls of tape, plus other incidentals like Q-tips and such.

So, I contacted them and told them they had made a mistake, and they told me "we can audit this bill...but I need to tell you that frequently we find that the nurses forgot to charge for other things, so you're bill could be higher" trying to scare me I guess. Since I was there the entire time and knew the truth I told her I was confident that wouldn't be the case, and she reluctantly agreed to request an audit. Curiously, when I asked who would conduct the audit, she replied that it would be the nurses. I said, "you mean the same nurses who made the original bill?", to which she replied "yes". To which I replied, "so I'm relying on the same people who originally made a false bill to admit they were wrong and lower the bill" and she said "yes" in a somewhat aggrevated tone. "Well then I'm pretty sure that they won't find a mistake then" I said, she replied "yeah, many times the bills come back higher". I asked her "you know, why the IRS doesn't let you audit yourself? Because you will never admit to making mistakes!" She obviously did not care. After the "audit", the bill came back exactly the same. I told them they could kiss my a$$ and send it to collections, but I think my wife paid it!

As of today, I have a $1000 bill from a different hospital for having a routine blood test for cholesterol that could have been done at a clinic around the corner for free, even without insurance. I'm not paying it, this is ridiculous, screw them!

[edit on 5/7/2010 by budaruskie]

I have a very hard time believing this woman's story. If there were ANY facial lacerations after a MVA, they would have done a CT scan at minimum, as well as further study. Doctors OVER order these, not under. The mantra taught at every medical school is basically "if someone comes in with any head trauma, you MUST get a CT because if you miss a subdural hematoma, they WILL sue you, even if there was no reason to suspect one".

To me, based on the attitude of her writing, as well as how she describes her attitude during the event, she probably left the ER against medical advice, because she either felt she was waiting too long or just didn't want to be there in the first place.

CoherentlyConfused - Sorry to hear you were essentially forced to go get medical services that you refused. I need to research whether a person has any rights to refuse to go to the hospital. Glad to hear you and your child are okay. It is so very difficult in our society to afford medical care if we have no insurance, are not insured enough or if we get denied insurance coverage for the medical event.

Budaruskie - Sounds like you got the same treatment as the woman I know who built her protest website. How can you get fair treatment when the people who mess up are in charge of fixing the mistake. Of course, it will not be a mistake. Glad that you and your wife are fine. I wonder whether they could have charged you if you had made a video? I never thought it would be important to document contacts, whether on the phone to customer service or dealing with medical problems.

I'm beginning to think that video will be standard procedure for any medical contact!

VneZonyDostupa - Right, I agree with you that anyone with a head trauma should get a CT scan. Because I do know her, I brought up the same skeptical point, come on. She showed me her medical record for that ER trip. Astoundingly, the doc wrote that he saw no reason to give her any scans! How bogus is that for a hospital ER? No scans after an airbag goes off in the face? I was so up in arms that I bet her (basically and rudely called her a liar) that the records aren't what she showed me. Went down to hospital with her, read them myself with her permission. Yup, doc wrote that he "saw" no need to schedule any head scans and released her. And yup, the treatment was to wash her face a little bit. This is why I started the thread, to find out who else had similar experiences. Maybe she should sue the hospital and docs?

Video, everyone needs to have videos.
Jesse with an E at the end, male, guy, man, dude....that's me.

Originally posted by lidobeachjesse
VneZonyDostupa - Right, I agree with you that anyone with a head trauma should get a CT scan. Because I do know her, I brought up the same skeptical point, come on. She showed me her medical record for that ER trip. Astoundingly, the doc wrote that he saw no reason to give her any scans! How bogus is that for a hospital ER? No scans after an airbag goes off in the face? I was so up in arms that I bet her (basically and rudely called her a liar) that the records aren't what she showed me. Went down to hospital with her, read them myself with her permission. Yup, doc wrote that he "saw" no need to schedule any head scans and released her. And yup, the treatment was to wash her face a little bit. This is why I started the thread, to find out who else had similar experiences. Maybe she should sue the hospital and docs?
.

Without seeing the records/reports, I can't really question the physician's reasoning. That being said, no patient of mine (though, I haven't been in the ER for a couple of years, since residency) who came in from a mandated ambulatory wreck would leave without a CT at the very least. Either there is more to the story that she or you aren't understanding from the doctor's notes, or this physician was highly negligent.

Of course, this doctor doesn't represent all doctors, or even a small percentage of doctors. I would put a good chunk of my salary on the bed that over 95% of doctors would have ordered a CT in her case, if all details are truly as they have been written above.

EDIT: Also, I wanted to address somethign you asked another poster. You asked how we can fix thigns if the people in charge are the ones who made the mistake in the first place. This is not how a hospital runs. Physicians, other than chiefs of respective departments, have little to no say in how a hospital is run, and are not responsible for "fixing" anything other than patients. If you were to sue the hospital, the physician would have no interaction with the case. It would be handled entirely by the hospital's lawyers. So, to suggest that you can't fix anything because the doctor is responsible for said fixing AND for the mistake is incorrect.

[edit on 5/7/2010 by VneZonyDostupa]

10 ways to avoid outrageous hospital overcharges
moneycentral.msn.com...

Profit-hungry hospitals are overcharging consumers an estimated $10 billion a year. Some deliberately work to keep bills indecipherable. Here's how to fight back.

"More than 90% of the hospital bills I've audited have gross overcharges," says Johnson.

Estimates on hospital overcharges run up to $10 billion a year, with an average of $1,300 per hospital stay. Other experts say overcharges make up approximately 5% of hospital bills.
Johnson says some overcharges are mistakes, but many are deliberate. "Hospitals are huge moneymakers," she explains. "Their executives enjoy big bonuses."

As a result, "Hospitals have become highly innovative when it comes to billing, and ordinary citizens have no idea they're being ripped off," says Johnson, who is affiliated with Salem, Va.-based Medical Billing Advocates of America.

and another example:
www.azfamily.com...
Couple say they were overcharged on hospital bill

As I research and read your responses, I am astounded how many people had this sort of thing happen. Billing for imaginary services.

VneZonyDostupa - I totally agree with you. If the ER doc had not ordered a CT scan, then she was not treated in a medically correct manner. I went through the entire bill. There was no charge whatsoever for any scans. The record states she was in an auto accident, airbag deployed. No cuts, just abrasions on her face. No sign of burns.

And I read - paraphrasing it - that the doc did not think there was any need for further treatment or scans. That's why I called her out on this in the first place. How could she not be scanned? Also, she did not run away, sign herself out of the ER. She was released by the doc after the face wash.

There was so little treatment that her record was only 2 pages long. If she will allow, I'll write down what the record says when I talk with her again. thanks for sharing the doubt and questions about this whole episode. I agree with you, treatment should have included scans at the very least.

I went to the ER (big big mistake, but live and learn) one time. They asked me if I was using drugs or on any medication. I said no. They gave and charged me for a $400 drug test anyway. They also gave me a $400 chest x-ray that had absolutely nothing to do with the problems at hand.

But try and and have this $800 worth of bullsh!* taken out of the $3000 bill and they'd try and make you think that you were trying to steal from them.

When it is they who are stealing from you all along.

The medical profession along with the healthcare insurance companys (who we are about to be strong armed into paying soon) are both part of what is wrong with the American Healthcare System.

I liken doctors to auto mechanics now= Thieves who always try and take advantage of people's ignorance.

That's why we switched to alternative medicine long ago.

To hell with American Healthcare.

Originally posted by warequalsmurder
I went to the ER (big big mistake, but live and learn) one time. They asked me if I was using drugs or on any medication. I said no. They gave and charged me for a $400 drug test anyway. They also gave me a $400 chest x-ray that had absolutely nothing to do with the problems at hand.

But try and and have this $800 worth of bullsh!* taken out of the $3000 bill and they'd try and make you think that you were trying to steal from them.

Please, remind me where you got your medical degree? Just because you don't fully understand why a test is being performed doesn't mean it's unnecessary. As for a "$400 drug test", no drug test costs that much, unless they are probing for a specific drug metabolite, which means they may have been checking your liver function or your ability to process/excrete a medication you were taking. This is even more likely, considering you were given a chest x-ray. If you were having difficulty breathing, perfusion problems, poor circulation, congestive heart issues, or even were at risk for thrombus or thomboembolism formation, I would certainly have ordered a similar drug/enxyme profile as well as a chest and abdominal x-ray.

The medical profession along with the healthcare insurance companys (who we are about to be strong armed into paying soon) are both part of what is wrong with the American Healthcare System.

I liken doctors to auto mechanics now= Thieves who always try and take advantage of people's ignorance.

Yes, clearly we are all taking advantage of your ignorance by treating your conditions and trying to get you out of our hospitals as quickly as possible so we can treat the next person.

That's why we switched to alternative medicine long ago.

To hell with American Healthcare.

In case you haven't heard, our life spans have increased linearly in tandem with the advancement of western medicine. Alternative medicine simply can't treat most conditions.

See you next time you're genuinely sick. That's when most "medicine is a racket" folks tend to show up at the hospitals that they claim are "worthless".

[edit on 5/7/2010 by VneZonyDostupa]

From the MSNBC article, totally truth wink, still, it indicates that the problem is not the doctors but the management of the hospitals. Doctors are doing their best to take care of their patients. Doctors also have to order lots of tests to eliminate the chance for lawsuits. Protective medicine.

The hospitals management will at times pressure doctors to order additional tests. I know, I am a business consultant and have experienced the board meetings at hospitals. I signed off to non-disclosure but wished I could blow the whistle on the policy of overcharging.

That is why when I heard about this woman's experience, I looked into it and then started the thread. If the hospital management in some hospitals is very money oriented, to the point of padding the bill to the tune of at least 10 billion a year, then something should be done about it.

Instead of just this Healthcare Bill, there needs to be legal actions to protect the patients, who are over charged and given no means to remedy the situation besides the court system.

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa

Please, remind me where you got your medical degree? Just because you don't fully understand why a test is being performed doesn't mean it's unnecessary. As for a "$400 drug test", no drug test costs that much, unless they are probing for a specific drug metabolite, which means they may have been checking your liver function or your ability to process/excrete a medication you were taking. This is even more likely, considering you were given a chest x-ray. If you were having difficulty breathing, perfusion problems, poor circulation, congestive heart issues, or even were at risk for thrombus or thomboembolism formation, I would certainly have ordered a similar drug/enxyme profile as well as a chest and abdominal x-ray.

Come on out to Texas and do some pricing yourself Mr. Doctor of worthless western tripe. I've got the receipts to prove it. Or do you practice medicine in Texas too?
Please remind us of which state you're licensed in so we can find out quickly who is talking the truth here and who truly doesn't know what they are talking about.

VneZonyDostupa
Yes, clearly we are all taking advantage of your ignorance by treating your conditions and trying to get you out of our hospitals as quickly as possible so we can treat the next person.

That might be a nice holistic statement if it weren't for the fact that I and one other person where the only people in the emergency center that night. This was only a 3.5 hour stay so yes, your buddies were taking advantage of the patient ($3000 bucks worth), so that they could quickly usher me out in order to screw somebody else.

VneZonyDostupa
In case you haven't heard, our life spans have increased linearly in tandem with the advancement of western medicine. Alternative medicine simply can't treat most conditions.

In case you haven't heard, the quality of life, nutrition, along with better hygiene has contributed far more to the extension of life in the developed west than any fool doctor with a scalpel, so step down off your hobby horse and quit trying to blow smoke up everyone's behind.

VneZonyDostupa
See you next time you're genuinely sick. That's when most "medicine is a racket" folks tend to show up at the hospitals that they claim are "worthless".

Speak for yourself Doc, I'll be staying well away from those Western Medicine thieves.




[edit on 7-5-2010 by warequalsmurder]

reply to post by lidobeachjesse


It looks like you have taken admirable steps in becoming a brave and noble person lidobeachjesse, by coming out about this robbery that the regular people are having to stomach every time they get sick.

A star for you and a flag for this topic.






[edit on 7-5-2010 by warequalsmurder]

Originally posted by warequalsmurder

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa

Please, remind me where you got your medical degree? Just because you don't fully understand why a test is being performed doesn't mean it's unnecessary. As for a "$400 drug test", no drug test costs that much, unless they are probing for a specific drug metabolite, which means they may have been checking your liver function or your ability to process/excrete a medication you were taking. This is even more likely, considering you were given a chest x-ray. If you were having difficulty breathing, perfusion problems, poor circulation, congestive heart issues, or even were at risk for thrombus or thomboembolism formation, I would certainly have ordered a similar drug/enxyme profile as well as a chest and abdominal x-ray.

Come on out to Texas and do some pricing yourself Mr. Doctor of worthless western tripe. I've got the receipts to prove it. Or do you practice medicine in Texas too?

It's Ms Western Medicine, and I'm license in Tennessee and Mississippi, as my hospital of employment is in a large border city. Also, I truly wish you would read my posts, rather than putting words in my mouth. I never said you weren't charged $400, I suggested that the "drug test" you were charged for wasn't a "drug test" in the sense you were trying to imply. Of course, such a suggestion doesn't fir your agenda, which is probably why you didn't address my point and instead attacked my character.

That might be a nice holistic statement if it weren't for the fact that I and one other person where the only people in the emergency center that night. This was only a 3.5 hour stay so yes, your buddies were taking advantage of the patient ($3000 bucks worth), so that they could quickly usher me out in order to screw somebody else.

Three and a half hours isn't a long ER stay. That's actually quite expedient if they managed to meet with you, perform a drug assay, perform imaging, and get all the results. Perhaps you're confusing a hospital with a fast food restaurant. One provides fast service and bends over backwards to please the customer, and the other is a hospital, where we do what needs to be done and don't honestly care if you think something "should" be done faster when we know that it realistcally CAN'T be done faster.

In case you haven't heard, the quality of life, nutrition, along with better hygiene has contributed far more to the extension of life in the developed west than any fool doctor with a scalpel, so step down off your hobby horse and quit trying to blow smoke up everyone's behind.

Quality of life, nutrition and hygiene. Hmm....let's see. Nutrition has been enhanced through better medical biochemistry. Quality of life has been improved through pain-sparing medicine and less restrictive therapies. Hygiene has been improved through germ theory, medical disinfectants and antiseptics, epidemic control, and caustive agent identification.

Gee, you're right. Medicine hasn't done ANYTHING for humanity. Gosh, I wish I had gotten MY degree from the school of hard knocks instead of those boring old "universities" and "medical schools". You sure know more than me!

Speak for yourself Doc, I'll be staying well away from those Western Medicine thieves.

I'm sure you will. Let me know how those alternative therapies shake out when you're in a car accident.

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa

I suggested that the "drug test" you were charged for wasn't a "drug test" in the sense you were trying to imply. Of course, such a suggestion doesn't fir your agenda, which is probably why you didn't address my point and instead attacked my character.

Yeah I thought you didn't no Jack Squat about Texas pricing and medical proceedures. Thanks for the conformation.
And nice attempt at deflection from somebody who specifically said: "As for a "$400 drug test", no drug test costs that much"
So if you don't want to be called out for being dishonest then you might want to read your own posts before you hit the Reply Button!

And I'd watch who you accuse of trying to set an agenda. It would be ten times easier to accuse you of that being one who has a agenda to protect since you are immersed up to your eyeballs in Western Medicine Propaganda and Indoctrination Doc.

Besides that I don't make a dime from using Alternative Medicine, but you sure as hell make your living off of Western Medicine so I ask the reader to judge which of us truly has the incentive to protect an agenda here.

I'm just trying to keep my wallet from being plundered. Don't like it? Then stop the stealing Doc.

VneZonyDostupa
Three and a half hours isn't a long ER stay. That's actually quite expedient if they managed to meet with you, perform a drug assay, perform imaging, and get all the results. Perhaps you're confusing a hospital with a fast food restaurant. One provides fast service and bends over backwards to please the customer, and the other is a hospital, where we do what needs to be done and don't honestly care if you think something "should" be done faster when we know that it realistcally CAN'T be done faster.

Yeah, it is pretty quick. And I had no problems with the amount of time which you have totally or deliberately missed the point on. But the price for only 3.5 hours of observation was $3000!!!!!!! Perhaps you're confusing a hospital with a Bank Robbery. One steals all the money it can from the patrons as quickly as possible and takes as much as it can carry away from the cash cow that it is attempting to steal from so it can CAN steal just as much if not more from the next patron (bank) that it wishes to rob.




[edit on 8-5-2010 by warequalsmurder]

Part 2

VneZonyDostupa
Quality of life, nutrition and hygiene. Hmm....let's see. Nutrition has been enhanced through better medical biochemistry. Quality of life has been improved through pain-sparing medicine and less restrictive therapies. Hygiene has been improved through germ theory, medical disinfectants and antiseptics, epidemic control, and caustive agent identification.

Wrong. Nutrition has been enhanced by food being more abundant and accessible to the people. You will need to be more specific on what you actually think that medical biochemistry has done for nutrition rather than making a vague blanket statement that provides no supporting evidence such as this one was.


Quality of life has been improved through a better living standard alone. Such as increased pay rate in job employments that allow people to subsist on levels unheard of in previous centuries which can also be interpreted as a drastic expansion of a middle class. And as mentioned above, more abundant food availability coupled with better sanitary practices which will be mentioned below. So you can take your bottle of Vicodin and push it on some other fool. When I have a cut on my skin I've seen the results of Colloidal Silver vs. your medical disnfectants. The Colloidal Silver heals the wound 3 times faster and the skin surroundind the cut never even turns pink. So don't give me this line of bull with your medical disinfectants because I've seen the proof to the contrary first hand.....Doc.

Hygiene has been improved more through the correct disposal of waste (regular trash removal from a premises). Education as to bathing more often (regular soap has been around a lot longer than your medical disnfectants Doc) and the more abundant use of plumbing that removes human waste. I'll take a toilet over your bottle of hand sanitizer any day of the week Doc.

VneZonyDostupal
Gee, you're right. Medicine hasn't done ANYTHING for humanity. Gosh, I wish I had gotten MY degree from the school of hard knocks instead of those boring old "universities" and "medical schools". You sure know more than me!

From the way you've presented your debate, I'd certainly have to agree with you here. And you might want to go demand a refund from that boring old university that cheated and tricked you into thinking that you were smart or something.

I'm also very happy that you chose to flaunt your pride here. It gives us a glimpse into the shallowness of your soul. But alas, I haven't met a Western Medicine Doctor yet who didn't try and intimidate a patient with this exact foolish ploy that you just attempted. Pathetic.

VneZonyDostupal
Let me know how those alternative therapies shake out when you're in a car accident

Let me know how those western therapies shake out when all of your hair does just that due to chemotherapy treatments!




[edit on 8-5-2010 by warequalsmurder]

A friend of mine got an MRI. Well, they called afterwards and said "we forgot to inject the contrast before the MRI"

So they need her to come back for another MRI.

And she was CHARGED for the moron's mistake. Should she have to pay? What do you do in that instance? I'd call my insurance and tell them?