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posted on May, 9 2010 @ 03:27 PM
reply to post by Freeborn

No, not as easy as first thought...... PR has (in my opinion) the same inherent problems of party line thinking and voting.. but feels (in my opinion) more distant from the local view and wishes.

the whole thing has me going in circles

[edit on 9/5/10 by thoughtsfull]

posted on May, 9 2010 @ 03:42 PM
I really hoped Nick Clegg would join forces with Labour and Nick as the leader.I really don't like conservatives because of crap that thatcher came up with.

In simple words:

Lib+Con=Fail, Fail=People getting more annoyed= BNP vote surge= Britain overall fail.

Lib+Lab=Pass, can't expect much radical change in previous policies though.

[edit on 9-5-2010 by Doujutsu]

posted on May, 9 2010 @ 03:50 PM
Hey folks,

I note that Rizla kindly inserted some statistics from a thread I've started. He's completely right, the disparity between the voting percentage for LibDems and the actual seats won is crazy.

Have a quick gander at the thread on how Proportional Representation could be implemented, suggestions welcome:

Proportional Representation - Win or Loss?

I don't think the issue is about whether PR should be implemented, more 'how' it is implemented. The regional representation issues could be a major stumbling block especially within the context of our legacy FPTP system.

posted on May, 9 2010 @ 03:54 PM
reply to post by Doujutsu

I feel that Clegg knows cons are not the way to go - He is Kingclegg right now!!!

Best possible option for me is Lib - Lab

Not a major in politics, what would happen if Libs did not go either?

Would that be stale mate.....

posted on May, 9 2010 @ 04:01 PM
reply to post by vesta

Vesta, purely out of interest, why do you feel that Lib/Lab is the way to go?

posted on May, 9 2010 @ 05:35 PM

Originally posted by Bunken Drum

Originally posted by Drexl If Conservatives and Lib Dems make a deal , we would be the ConDem Nation then ?
Thats brilliant! If the deal happens, I've a feeling we'll be seeing a fair bit of that phrase.

The Daily Mirror just swiped it for their Monday front page .


posted on May, 9 2010 @ 05:51 PM
reply to post by SugarCube

I feel that the Lib - Lab are more of an equal then the cons.............Cameron is a plastic man with rich ideas the wealthyrites....................Got to go sleep is calling

posted on May, 9 2010 @ 07:48 PM

Originally posted by Drexl

Originally posted by Bunken Drum

Originally posted by Drexl If Conservatives and Lib Dems make a deal , we would be the ConDem Nation then ?
Thats brilliant! If the deal happens, I've a feeling we'll be seeing a fair bit of that phrase.

The Daily Mirror just swiped it for their Monday front page .


Love that line from Bunken Drum. I suppose conversely you could have a ConLab conspiracy, that would just quish everyone else to bits. The Ideal setup even, David Blair..sorry David Camoron as Prime misery, Gordon Brown, Chancellor of the Exchequer, (of course) and Nick Clegg could make the teas, and sharpen the er, Pencils for the next election/s. Viewers discretion is advised for Daily mail readers in this post.

posted on May, 10 2010 @ 12:55 AM
reply to post by kindred
Ah Mr. Kindred. Come in, take a seat. There's no easy way to say this so I'll get straight to the diagnosis. Unfortunately you are suffering from chronic Tory Media poisoning. I'm afraid that the outlook isn't good. Its likely that some of the damage is permanent. The trouble is that the effect of the poison is such that it makes you think you are fine, so its very difficult to recover from. I can promise you that you can reduce the debilitating effects though, but you must really want to. Initially you must cut out Tory Media completely. I know that sounds drastic, but the withdrawal symptoms can be managed. Anyway, due to but backs, I'm afraid I cant continue your appointment any further. If you would like help managing your condition, make another appointment with the receptionist. Er... yes, sorry about the queue out there...

posted on May, 10 2010 @ 01:46 AM
reply to post by Drexl
Yeah, I was just flicking through to see if anyone else had heard before posting that.
OK, own up! Who is the Mirror journo on here?

posted on May, 10 2010 @ 02:37 AM
Hey Sugar Cube, the reason PR needs to be right up there on the agenda with the economy is because it is by no means a marginal issue. We've almost had it brought in several times, going back as far as David Lloyd George. There have been plenty of investigations into how it would work already. There are plenty of academic experts who can advise MPs on the issues involved.
Most importantly, 23% of the electorate just voted for it, after a particularly devastating scare campaign by both the major parties, ie "Vote Clegg get... [insert opponent]. According to my local LibDem candidate, their own exit poll research cited that voter fear as significant.
If it wasn't for FPTP, its likely that more people would have voted, since as it is, they know that their vote wouldn't matter anyway. Also under FPTP many people who would vote for someone other than Lab or Con feel constrained to vote for 1 just to be against the other. Basically, FPTP acts against the vote of those who want PR but despite that almost 1/4 of us have shown we want a referendum on it.
As I understand it, the LibDems favour the single transferable vote method for the Commons. This ensures that a candidate is elected for a local constituency but that each candidate is elected on the overall opinion of the majority of local voters. I dunno how they would apply PR to an elected Lords, but I would suggest something like an electoral college formed of all the candidates for the Commons that didn't lose their deposit voting for candidates to the Lords with a vote weight based on the number of votes they received. Otherwise, we would either have no independent Lords or we ourselves would have to peruse a vast list of them, unless they had a constituency, which would defeat the point.

posted on May, 10 2010 @ 03:01 AM
Also, the reason electoral reform is crucial right now is because of the economy. All 3 main parties' manifestos involve deep cuts to public spending: apparently it'll be as bad as the 80s. Just remember how long it took to recover from that. In fact its arguable that we still haven't. Whatever happens, it'll definitely take longer than 1 parliament to fix the economy.
If we dont have electoral reform before the next parliament, we are doomed to the ideologies of Labour or Tory that have both proved failures.
If the LibDems had something approaching the number of seats that their share of the vote suggested, then Vince Cable's different ideas would be now much more likely to be listened to. At least there's a chance that next time, they will be.

posted on May, 10 2010 @ 03:52 AM
reply to post by Bunken Drum

Hi Bunken Drum, my issue isn't with P per se, rather 'how' it is implemented. Academic experts may well consult with MPs but it is the general public that needs to fully understand how their vote will count toward the government they actually want.

23% may have voted for the LivDems and by implication, for electoral reform, but the Conservative voters didn't and the Labour supporters may be split. Regardless, it is appropriate to visit the issue and determine the best way forward via an all-party consultation and a public referendum. "We" should decide how we want our vote to count.

Mt thread on this matter goes into some detail as to the issues surrounding various PR and FPTP aspects.

I am for PR *if* it can be shown to represent the interests of voters in all manner of ways, from parliamentary 'seats' to local representation, from disparate communities (i.e. urban and rural) to cabinet composition. I would not say that these issues have been fully addressed in the public domain.

posted on May, 10 2010 @ 04:03 PM
At least the unbalanced press didn't get it all to their thinking, since we have ended up with a non-government, no matter who holds the reins. So one in the eye to the stupid British press...and they have the cheek to wonder why people aren't buying papers? Simple reason is 99% of the printed word nowadays is bullshy, and people know it. As for this new government?? we are in a serious situation here, with all the global financial instability and international terrorism rife, there's not much left for domestic issues, which is really what this general election was about, correct me if I'm wrong.

posted on May, 10 2010 @ 10:09 PM
I wouldn't worry too much about 'international terrorism'. An excuse to wage war , is all it is.

The thing I do not get with the Lib Dems , is that , should they go into an alliance with the Tories, they would be forever tainted with that association. The Tories could put up a national referendum on AV or PR , and all the tory voters would vote no , followed by a legion of Labour supporters out to exact revenge for the treachery by sitting on their hands or a no vote . They cannot win by these means, they would split the party and alienate scottish voters. It is a no go.

posted on May, 11 2010 @ 02:19 AM
reply to post by Doujutsu

Lab/Lib = L stands for Losers
No referendum on the Fascist EU, ID cards, surveillance, secret courts, green taxes, and no personality and another unelected PM. What an absolute joke!

posted on May, 11 2010 @ 02:33 AM
reply to post by Bunken Drum

That's funny coming from someone whose a victim of New Labour spin. New Labour spin is a disease where those affected think they are wearing red rose-tinted glasses. The victim thinks they are living a life of luxury and they worship the ground New Labour walks on, but unfortunately if the victim were to take off their glasses, they would see everything isn't as it seems.

I'm not a Tory, I'm just not idiotic enough to vote and reward a party who has decimated this country over the last 13 years and will continue to do so if they form the next government. Wake up and smell the coffee.

[edit on 11-5-2010 by kindred]

posted on May, 11 2010 @ 05:28 AM
reply to post by kindred

I bought into the Blair dream.
"Education, education, education" etc.
I feel completely let down.
They have let us down on so many things, including their erosion of civil and personal liberties and the invasion of the nanny state and the over powering presence of the PC Brigade.
They disgust me.

But as always, there is always a but.........

Now I don't know how old you are or where you live and what sort of background you come from.

I live in a typical North East England town.
I left school in '82.
There were no apprenticeships at all in my hometown.
Manufacturing had been all but wiped out in what was traditional the home to lots of heavy engineering.
Unemployment was rampant and the area was a wasteland.

There is no longer any ship building on the Tyne, Tees or Wear.
There isn't asingle working pit open in the region now.
All the steel works have been shut down.

What was once the industrial heart of the UK has been decimated.
The North East has never recovered from The Thatcher years and is a pale imitation of it's former self.

Thatcher turned whole communities and families against each other.
She killed whole towns.
She sold off 'the family silver' to highest bidder.
I cannot begin to list all the ill's and wrong doing's of Thatcher's Conservative governement.

And make no bones about it, Cameron is a Thatcherite.

The Conservatives have a complete lack of interest in the well being of the everyday person in the UK.
Their only concern is the generation of wealth for themselves and their backers.

If, as strictly speaking should be, we get a Cameron government then I fear for this country, it can only be raped and pillaged for so long.

posted on May, 11 2010 @ 08:29 AM
I know what you're talking about, as I also live in the North East, but expressing my own opinion I personally don't think it was as bad under Thatcher as it is now. What you said is exactly what New Labour have done and they have raped and pillaged this country for long enough. It's time for change and while I'm no fan of the Tories, Cameron is not Thatcher. He is a Conservative in the Macmillan mould, pragmatic and socially concerned. More so than any New Labour MP. I think he deserves a chance. I think the best compliment Cameron has gotten so far is from Thatcher herself. She still says she doesn't really get him. If the Tory Party was not in her blood, Cameron as a leader would not get her vote."

Out of the three main parties, he's the best of a bad bunch, is all I can say.

posted on May, 11 2010 @ 08:49 AM
reply to post by kindred

The North East was much worse off under Thatcher, we had nothing.
She destroyed this region and we have never recovered.

But I suppose that is for another time and place, the basis of a good thread.

Cameron is a complete and utter twat!
He is an upper class moron who has absolutely no understanding of the cares and concerns of the everyday person in this country.

He is very much a product of 'the old boys network' having gone to the same Prep School as Prince's Andrew and Edward and Eton.

His family are closely associated to The Rotschilds and previous Governors of The Bank Of England.

I really suspect that the cares and concerns of a Welders son from a safe Labour town in North East England are of absolutely no interest to him whatsoever!

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